Help with a VPP

[brionl]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Ah' date=' I see - Schrodinger's utility belt. That does work, especially for "super planning ability" types like Batman, but I don't think it's what the OP was going for.[/quote']

 

That's what I'm using for my Thunderbirds writeup. If I ever get it finished.

"Radio Controlled Elevator Cars? That's bin 12-B-V. Load 'em up guys!"

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

The general problem into wich you will run, is that having a lot of powers availible (avalible != ready at all times) is always going to be a lot more expensive than having a few pre written.

 

When seeing your writeup above, I'd take make a 60 Control, 120 Pool VPP with "Change only at base" and maybe "Extra Time".

When you want to carry around equipment/powers for 120 Real Points, you should also pay 120 Real Points*

When you want to be able to switch this equipment and write new one up in the game, you should pay more to have that higher flexibility*

 

*This is for "changeabiliy without writing it up in advance", wich what a VPP is there for.

 

You might be able to apply some -1/4 or -1/2 Limitations on those powers you can't use in Combined Attacks/Multiattack as most weapons. This is perhaps the only configuration in wich "required hands" is an issue/applicable in superhuman games.

On the other hand, consider to use only "recoverable" Charges for the grenades as he can restock, propably more than once per adventure (with normal charges he should not be able to restock more than once a day).

 

 

Asuming 60/120 VPP with "Only at base" with no ability to change it in a combat (when the enemy goes to your base/armory) and changing within a Minute you don't need ths Skill and:

60 Controll, 120 Pool VPP; OIF (-1/2*), Only changeable at base (-1/2**); 30+120 = 150

 

*the entire Weapon Loadout can be taken away, Items should have at least OIF but may also have OAF (or even a "fragile" variant of those).

**an Aresnal is given as book example; I am not certain but this one could be for any suiteable locale, so he might be able to change and restock at a police station/military base (when he has access to it, consider a perq), not only "his" base. That would propably allow him to even raid a Viper Armory as part of his VPP.

I am not certain I see a good chase for limited power selection. I mean what are the real chances PRIMUS does not have a "intagibility harness" or "mindcontroll emitter" in his stock? For this to be an issue, he needs to have a very low clearance, where he never get's the good stuff/latest thing from the Evidence Room with less than a concerted persuasion atempt of his entire team on the base commander.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

The general problem into wich you will run, is that having a lot of powers availible (avalible != ready at all times) is always going to be a lot more expensive than having a few pre written.

 

When seeing your writeup above, I'd take make a 60 Control, 120 Pool VPP with "Change only at base" and maybe "Extra Time".

When you want to carry around equipment/powers for 120 Real Points, you should also pay 120 Real Points*

 

 

A Multipower of 5 60 AP attacks carries around powers worth 300 real points and doesn't cost nearly that much. The whole point of the MP and the VPP is that you can access a variety of different powers, not all at the same time, for a much lower cost than buying all those powers individually. Your model allows for 120 real points of powers all usable simultaneously, which seems a lot more powerful than what JMoz describes

 

I am not certain I see a good chase for limited power selection. I mean what are the real chances PRIMUS does not have a "intagibility harness" or "mindcontroll emitter" in his stock? For this to be an issue' date=' he needs to have a very low clearance, where he never get's the good stuff/latest thing from the Evidence Room with less than a concerted persuasion atempt of his entire team on the base commander.[/quote']

 

To me, the restriction of what is available depends very much on the limitations described. If he gets no limitation, I would expect Primus pretty much always has what he wants readily available. Need to get to the Dark Dimension? Why of course we have a Dark Dimension Transporter - let me haul it out of the back. It seems like JMOz wants a much more restricted selection, so he should get a limitation for the reduced versatility of the VPP.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

RE: Christopher: Not so much a low clearance, but what does the local base have on hand. In theory you are right, but most of that would take days to weeks to arrive, not be readily available (Making it great for plot points, not so great for general use). For the record his clearance will be somewhere between a Silver Avenger and an Assault Agents.

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

A Multipower of 5 60 AP attacks carries around powers worth 300 real points and doesn't cost nearly that much. The whole point of the MP and the VPP is that you can access a variety of different powers' date=' not all at the same time, for a much lower cost than buying all those powers individually. Your model allows for 120 real points of powers all usable simultaneously, which seems a lot more powerful than what JMoz describes[/quote']

Not all at the same time is the point. Multipower Limits the AP useable simultaniously. VPP limits the Real Points useable Simultaniously.

 

An he can in fact use his Armor and Two Pistols in a Combined Attack. Or his Armor and The Rifle. Or his Armor, his Night Vision googles and his Rifle. Or...

I know the cost is high(even after applying the "required hand" Limitations), but that what this flexible power is worth. When he had just the one set of Powers described above and wouldn't want to use a Multipower for it, would you say he should pay less than the Real Points cost of all the powers he has?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Not all at the same time is the point. Multipower Limits the AP useable simultaniously. VPP limits the Real Points useable Simultaniously.

 

An he can in fact use his Armor and Two Pistols in a Combined Attack. Or his Armor and The Rifle. Or his Armor, his Night Vision googles and his Rifle. Or...

I know the cost is high(even after applying the "required hand" Limitations), but that what this flexible power is worth. When he had just the one set of Powers described above and wouldn't want to use a Multipower for it, would you say he should pay less than the Real Points cost of all the powers he has?

 

He wants 60 real points usable simultaneously. Your proposed build makes 120 real points usable simultaneously. It seems appropriate that, if he can only use 60 real points simultaneously, which is the build he describes, he would pay less than a character who can use 120 points simultaneously, at the cost set by the build you set out.

 

In the example gear load he provided, he cannot wear the armor and use two weapons simultaneously - all "armor + 2 weapons" models total more than 60 real points.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

The general problem into wich you will run, is that having a lot of powers availible (avalible != ready at all times) is always going to be a lot more expensive than having a few pre written.

 

When seeing your writeup above, I'd take make a 60 Control, 120 Pool VPP with "Change only at base" and maybe "Extra Time".

When you want to carry around equipment/powers for 120 Real Points, you should also pay 120 Real Points*

When you want to be able to switch this equipment and write new one up in the game, you should pay more to have that higher flexibility*

 

*This is for "changeabiliy without writing it up in advance", wich what a VPP is there for.

 

You might be able to apply some -1/4 or -1/2 Limitations on those powers you can't use in Combined Attacks/Multiattack as most weapons. This is perhaps the only configuration in wich "required hands" is an issue/applicable in superhuman games.

On the other hand, consider to use only "recoverable" Charges for the grenades as he can restock, propably more than once per adventure (with normal charges he should not be able to restock more than once a day).

 

 

Asuming 60/120 VPP with "Only at base" with no ability to change it in a combat (when the enemy goes to your base/armory) and changing within a Minute you don't need ths Skill and:

60 Controll, 120 Pool VPP; OIF (-1/2*), Only changeable at base (-1/2**); 30+120 = 150

 

*the entire Weapon Loadout can be taken away, Items should have at least OIF but may also have OAF (or even a "fragile" variant of those).

**an Aresnal is given as book example; I am not certain but this one could be for any suiteable locale, so he might be able to change and restock at a police station/military base (when he has access to it, consider a perq), not only "his" base. That would propably allow him to even raid a Viper Armory as part of his VPP.

I am not certain I see a good chase for limited power selection. I mean what are the real chances PRIMUS does not have a "intagibility harness" or "mindcontroll emitter" in his stock? For this to be an issue, he needs to have a very low clearance, where he never get's the good stuff/latest thing from the Evidence Room with less than a concerted persuasion atempt of his entire team on the base commander.

 

Can you please explain something, and I am not trying to be mean, so please understand that I am trying to understand your POV?

 

Why do you feel that a character should pay for everything he is carrying, when with a normal cosmic VPP the character could just switch out as needed?

 

Also, and I don't know why this occurs to me, but do you normally use 5th or 6th edition?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

I believe that Christopher continues to be confused by what a slot in a framework (Multipower or VPP) represents.

 

A slot represents a specific character ability.

 

Ability is better word to use that Power since a slot can be a combination of 2 or more Powers plus Advantages & Limitations. Slots can also even be skills (Overall Skill Levels) with GM permision.

 

Whether or not that ability has a limitation on it (like Focus) does not change the fact that the slot is still just an ability of the character.

The concept of the ability being based on a focus does not change the fact that the framework pricing is only based on overall ability.

 

Remember, we are in the Champions forum and have established that the character in question is in a superheroic campaign. Points are paid for everything.

 

If the character was in a heroic campaign then this whole thread would be moot because ALL the equipment is GM controlled and created and the heroic equipment pool rules would be the easier method to determine what and how much "gear" a character could take with him on a mission.

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Can you please explain something, and I am not trying to be mean, so please understand that I am trying to understand your POV?

 

Why do you feel that a character should pay for everything he is carrying, when with a normal cosmic VPP the character could just switch out as needed?

 

Also, and I don't know why this occurs to me, but do you normally use 5th or 6th edition?

Yes I use 6E.

My logic is as follows:

Suit of armor (25 Real Points)

 

A Blaster Riffle (30 Real Points)

2 Concussion Grades (20 Real Points)

4 Flash Bangs (20 Real Points)

Sonic Stun Pistol (25 Real Points)

 

ok, real points he has "Checked out" 120 Real points of gear, this will not all fit in his pool (60 points).

So if he had only this amount of equipment on him without any idea about VPP and no Multipower, he would pay 120 Real Points.

But he want's to carry that much PLUS being able to change that equipment at the right place. Wich is more effect, so it should be more expensive and not less.

 

The only thing remotely comparable is the Gadget VPP that can be changend in battle. But this one suffers from Pool Drain (you loose pool points) whenever equipment is destroyed or when it is give away/take away. He can be disarmed or give away his weapon without having any such penalty. He can just use the same pool points again to equip the rifle. He propably can go back and just request the same weapon/armor again.

So he would get two advantages (less price and no pool loss) just because of his SFX, wich simply doesn't sounds fair for the guy who has the same equipment bought normally.

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

The only thing remotely comparable is the Gadget VPP that can be changend in battle. But this one suffers from Pool Drain (you loose pool points) whenever equipment is destroyed or when it is give away/take away.

Okay, that was half wrong on my side. This only happens if the VPP has the Focus Limitation. it was definitely a bad idea of me to apply focus to the VP writeup above, as you can't take away his ability to take and use weapons.

 

But that still leaves the problem with having way more effect fore less price, wich is rarely right.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Yes I use 6E.

My logic is as follows:

 

So if he had only this amount of equipment on him without any idea about VPP and no Multipower, he would pay 120 Real Points.

But he want's to carry that much PLUS being able to change that equipment at the right place. Wich is more effect, so it should be more expensive and not less.

 

So why are we ignoring VPP's and Multipowers? Because they don't support your conclusion? It sounds like you simply don't like power frameworks, in which case I question why you would involve yourself in a discussion of a framework build.

 

If JMOz wanted the same 120 points of gear, he could buy it as:

 

25 Armored Suit

 

30 Multipower (shares focus and other slot limits, assumed all powers 60 AP and OAF

3 A Blaster Riffle (30 Real Points)

2 Concussion Grades (20 Real Points)

2 Flash Bangs (20 Real Points)

2 Sonic Stun Pistol (25 Real Points)

 

That's 64 real points. For the flexibility of being able to change the slots, the price should more than double? Why?

 

You seem to feel he should pay 120 points + a control cost of what, 15 (30, only changes at base, limited powers), for the privilege of carrying all those weapons and being able to swap them in or out. He no longer needs Cosmic to change the slots back and forth, but can only carry 120 real points in total. That more than doubles the cost for the flexibility of being permitted to change the points.

 

For the same 135 points, he could have a 60 point VPP (60 points of absolutely anything he wants) with a control cost of 75, so call that 30 x 3 for Cosmic, with a -1/4 limitation that every power must have a focus, so 72 = 132. How can he save three points by eliminating the requirement to return to base, and removing the ability of his superior officers to deny access to some powers? "Oh wait, I just happen to have a Dimensional Transporter in my pocket!"

 

That's a pretty basic writeup of a VPP, with only one minor limitation on all powers, so I think it makes a better baseline build. In my opinion, it is not reasonable that JMOz' build, which carries less versatility and exactly the same real points usable at any one time, should cost a little bit more, rather than considerably less. In other words, it should not be cheaper to have more versatility. Your approach makes more versatility the less expensive option.

 

The only thing remotely comparable is the Gadget VPP that can be changend in battle. But this one suffers from Pool Drain (you loose pool points) whenever equipment is destroyed or when it is give away/take away. He can be disarmed or give away his weapon without having any such penalty. He can just use the same pool points again to equip the rifle. He propably can go back and just request the same weapon/armor again.

So he would get two advantages (less price and no pool loss) just because of his SFX, wich simply doesn't sounds fair for the guy who has the same equipment bought normally.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

I want to say that I do appreciate Christopher's thoughts on this. As I work on my first outing for a book it has actually been VERY helpful to me. While I do not agree with his opinions on this matter it has helped me with some ideas for my vigilante book.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

For those who are still interested...

 

The major difference between purchasing attack abilities individually (no Framework) vs. building them inside of a Framework.

When purchased separately it is possible to combine the attacks together using the Multiple Attack rules from 6e2 on page 73.

When ALL the attack abilities are inside of the same Framework this is not possible.

This is the hidden limitation of using Frameworks that is often overlooked.