Help with a VPP

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Humm...what if he encounters and kills an enimie? Can he be able to scavage the enimies equipment? Even add it to his weapion catch? If the device is 'to advance', will goverment 'top men' grab it for themselves?

 

Equipment scavaging happens all the time in war. The VVP should reflect this, if this charater is in a war campain (like, say, during WW2). Heck, some eleat specalist solders are ment to be lightly armed, but salvage the enimies weapions, equipment, and suplies.

 

Just food for thought...

 

Going back on topic:

The game is a modern day street level Super Hero game. So, per the Rules as Written (RAW) he would be able to use them for that adventure. Afterwards devices will normally be either used by law enforcement for evidence or Top Men will take them. I can see some items finding there way into the armory, but that is an exception.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

I would just use Variable Limitations' date=' but not a major issue.[/quote']

 

Some significant differences, First is that he cannot change lims in the field. Second how it interacts with the pool. Both of these I think balance out, so same value, but different enoug to warrant a different discription

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

This is quite similar to a problem I had not to far ago:

What if a character makes a Multisetting Gun in a Gadget VPP.

You can't combine Multipower and VPP. On the other hand a VPP needs time to change slots, and that would be to much time to switch the setting on your gun.

 

I am still not convinced a VPP is the right idea here:

A VPP allows you to build any power, any time. But you don't want most of the Powers (Do you wanrt desolid, density or growth?) and you want to write them up ahead of time - wich is exaclty what a Multipower is for.

Effectively a VPP is a Multipower where you have bought so many slots, the GM invokes "absolute effect rule" and let's you have any slot you want to at any time.

 

What we really need to nail down:

When and where can he change his loadout? How likely will he have access to his base? ("how often/how easy can he change his avalible weapons") What are the exacty limits on wich weapons are availible?

Is it really only weapons, or weapons and military equipment?

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Perhaps a combination of Multiform and Multipower helps you, like it helped me:

The character has different "Loadouts" (Forms). Each loadout has a set of Guns between witch it can choose at will. But not every form has access to every weapon ("A Scout get's no Anti-tank weapons, soldier!") or gadget.

Forms can only be switched at the base, where all the stuff is stored.

 

It's a little less flexible than a Cosmic VPP, but it should allow you to be prepare for almost anything.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

...You can't combine Multipower and VPP.

 

But you can recreate any single slot of a multipower using the pool of a multipower if it is large enough.

It's not combining. It's REPLACING. And it's a LIMITED VPP.

 

Note that the OP wasn't asking how to simulate this sfx.

He was asking for opinions on his chosen values for the Limitations to use for the VPP.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

So how many Multipowers have you built with a Half Phase to change slots Limitation?

None, but one of my characters has a VPP that includes enchanted weaponry and it's a Full Phase to change slots for him. Forces him to think ahead a bit about what he'll need before a fight.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

But you can recreate any single slot of a multipower using the pool of a multipower if it is large enough.

It's not combining. It's REPLACING. And it's a LIMITED VPP.

 

Note that the OP wasn't asking how to simulate this sfx.

He was asking for opinions on his chosen values for the Limitations to use for the VPP.

 

And I think that has been answered, that it is fair. To answer some recurring questions. The equipment will be a lot more than just weapons. For that matter, I think I accidentally misrepresented whom he will work for, it is a federal agency responsible for the apprehension of super villains and monitoring of super heroes.

 

As for what he can use, there will be a couple of lists, including what he can get fairly reliably and what will be issued in extreme situations. Items he finds will probably not be put into the armory (Either law enforcement will need it for evidence or "Top Men"...or both)

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Then I ask again:

Why not a Multipower?

 

You have all those powers written down in advance. You don't want to change the loadout right before a battle (as you can do even without Skill). You don't want to overcome situations with "any power from the book", but with "a power selected from my list". Wich means you don't need a VPP.

What you could need is a Mutlipower with Limitations. Maybe with a custom "not more than 6 Slots availible at any one time"?

Maybe add a small VPP/seperate Multipowr for gadgets and you are done.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Then I ask again:

Why not a Multipower?

 

You have all those powers written down in advance. You don't want to change the loadout right before a battle (as you can do even without Skill). You don't want to overcome situations with "any power from the book", but with "a power selected from my list". Wich means you don't need a VPP.

What you could need is a Mutlipower with Limitations. Maybe with a custom "not more than 6 Slots availible at any one time"?

Maybe add a small VPP/seperate Multipowr for gadgets and you are done.

 

You do realize that beyond a certain # of slots a Multipower is actually more expensive than an equivalently functional* VPP?!

*using appropriate VPP only Advantages and Limitations (like the ones mentioned in the 1st post of this thread).

 

A multipower approach puts a hard limit due to cost on the variety of different 'adventure-kits' that this character can use. The concept does not impose any such limit so why use a game mechanic that does?

 

I think you might be attaching some kind of sfx based preconception on what is appropriate for a VPP vs. Multipower. Frameworks by default are sfx neutral. The GM creator of the character can apply whatever sfx they desire to the framework.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

None' date=' but one of my characters has a VPP that includes enchanted weaponry and it's a Full Phase to change slots for him. Forces him to think ahead a bit about what he'll need [i']before[/i] a fight.

 

So you are imposing a houserule sfx rule to VPP frameworks. That's fine as a house rule but it isn't RAW.

[Christopher]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

So you are imposing a houserule sfx rule to VPP frameworks. That's fine as a house rule but it isn't RAW.

No, he doesn't? The rules say VPP's without Advantage need a Full phase to switch. Balance sometimes forces you to non-ideal Rule constructs, just work on a ingame "reason" behind it. But you run into a similar issue when building most established characters or equipment (like Lightsabers), so sometimes your idea have to be scaled down so it doesnt breakes the game.

 

 

Let's see what a certain VPP example would be worth as Multipower:

Let's asume a 60/60 VPP, Cosmic (+2), All slots OAF(-1). Costs:

30*3/2 +60 = 45+60 = 105

 

For 105 points, you can get:

30 60-Reserve Mutlipower, All Slots OAF(-1)

plus

75 25-Fixed Slots, 60 AP each

or plus

72 12-variable Slots, 60 AP each (but you want equipment, so flexible slots are not really an issue)

 

The VPP has a small advantage, as you can have more powers active at once (as Mutlipower values the AP, ignoring Limitations) but for weapons this might not be a big deal (all you loose is ability to mutliattack with different weapons, not a great loss).

 

When you want equipment (things that only have OIF or IIF Limitations and lower total limitations) to be in there, the math gets better for the VPP:

60/60 VPP, Cosmic(+2), all slots at least IIF(-1/4)

30*3/1.25 + 60 = 72 + 60 = 132

 

for 132 you get:

48 60-Reserve Mutlipower, All Slots IIF(-0.25)

plus

80 16 fixed slots, 60 AP each

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

No, he doesn't? The rules say VPP's without Advantage need a Full phase to switch. Balance sometimes forces you to non-ideal Rule constructs, just work on a ingame "reason" behind it. But you run into a similar issue when building most established characters or equipment (like Lightsabers), so sometimes your idea have to be scaled down so it doesnt breakes the game.

 

Let's see what a certain VPP example would be worth as Multipower:

Let's asume a 60/60 VPP, Cosmic (+2), All slots OAF(-1). Costs:

30*3/2 +60 = 45+60 = 105

 

For 105 points, you can get:

30 60-Reserve Mutlipower, All Slots OAF(-1)

plus

75 25-Fixed Slots, 60 AP each

or plus

72 12-variable Slots, 60 AP each (but you want equipment, so flexible slots are not really an issue)

 

The VPP has a small advantage, as you can have more powers active at once (as Mutlipower values the AP, ignoring Limitations) but for weapons this might not be a big deal (all you loose is ability to mutliattack with different weapons, not a great loss).

 

You could have two 60 AP slots available at one time without the Cosmic advantages, and freely switch between, requiring a full phase to change one to a different power.

 

I believe the OP wants to carry more equipment than his pool will allow. For example, he might be using his Parachute (5 real points), Flashlight (3 real points) and Radio (12 real points), as well as anough other devices to use up all 60 points of his VPP. He wants to use his 20 RP Handgun, but so he drops the radio and flashlight, having already pulled the disconnect for the parachute. In a zero phase action, he accesses the pistol. With no advantages on the VPP, he would have needed a full phase, plus a roll (modified for the pistol's AP) to successfully change the VPP and draw the pistol.

 

His list of gear carried, I assume, will be larger than his available AP, so he can't use every carried item at once.

 

The 6e version could be 30 real points, for a 75 total cost, such that he only has 1 60AP OAF at a time.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

to: Christopher

Was there a point you were trying to make? I've re-read your post 3 times and still can't see one.

 

I am extremely familiar with the all the possibilities of both VPP's and Multipowers (and their relationship with the Variable Advantage, theirs even a link to a post about it in my SIG).

 

I think it's kind of funny that folks still seem to think that a swappable equipment kit special effect should only be modeled with the Multipower Framework after I've provided multiple reasons why this is not the case.

 

The fact that folks are doing this on a thread that was started with a question about VPP-Only Limitations is even funnier.

[Alverant]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

That's the point - assuming he's using weapons that are ~60 AP' date=' then whenever he switches weapons, he's switching the VPP. Which means that without Cosmic, dropping his pistol and drawing a grenade launcher would take a full round action and require a skill roll.[/quote']

Exactly. If he wants new gear he has to sign out for it. He shouldn't have to make a skill roll, but it shouldn't be a 0-phase action.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Going back on topic:

The game is a modern day street level Super Hero game. So, per the Rules as Written (RAW) he would be able to use them for that adventure. Afterwards devices will normally be either used by law enforcement for evidence or Top Men will take them. I can see some items finding there way into the armory, but that is an exception.

 

I just wanted to elaborate on what can be gleamed from this post and the forum (Champions) it is being posted into.

 

The character appears to be street level but is in a world with superpowers. This means all "equipment" costs points. If the game was strictly street level heroic everything that has been discussed so far could be moot since equipment could be handled by "equipment pools" which can be increased with a Perk. And Heroic characters can easily bypass the the 1/2 Phase to draw a weapon by purchasing Fast Draw which tends to blow a hole in the argument against disallowing the 0-Phase VPP Advantage.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Ok, I will break this out for you, so you can get an idea of how it works in Play

 

Bronze Avenger, (60 point pool, 60 point control, cosmic, limitations), Agent of PRIMUS goes and checks out at the base the following kit

 

Suit of armor (25 Real Points)

 

A Blaster Riffle (30 Real Points)

2 Concussion Grades (20 Real Points)

4 Flash Bangs (20 Real Points)

Sonic Stun Pistol (25 Real Points)

 

ok, real points he has "Checked out" 120 Real points of gear, this will not all fit in his pool (60 points).

 

In the field his armor is always on, so he has 35 points active in his pool, he can switch his weapons (the 4 he has on him) at any time, as a 0 phase action without a skill roll. Thus cosmic.

 

Later he decides the Sonic pistol is not helping him so he goes back and trades it in for a neuropistol. Later he can not use the sonic pistol anymore because it is back at base.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Exactly. If he wants new gear he has to sign out for it. He shouldn't have to make a skill roll' date=' but it shouldn't be a 0-phase action.[/quote']

 

Seriously?

 

Mechanics do NOT = Special Effect

Have people forgot this basic part of the Hero System?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Ok, I will break this out for you, so you can get an idea of how it works in Play

 

Bronze Avenger, (60 point pool, 60 point control, cosmic, limitations), Agent of PRIMUS goes and checks out at the base the following kit

 

Suit of armor (25 Real Points)

 

A Blaster Riffle (30 Real Points)

2 Concussion Grades (20 Real Points)

4 Flash Bangs (20 Real Points)

Sonic Stun Pistol (25 Real Points)

 

ok, real points he has "Checked out" 120 Real points of gear, this will not all fit in his pool (60 points).

 

In the field his armor is always on, so he has 35 points active in his pool, he can switch his weapons (the 4 he has on him) at any time, as a 0 phase action without a skill roll. Thus cosmic.

 

Later he decides the Sonic pistol is not helping him so he goes back and trades it in for a neuropistol. Later he can not use the sonic pistol anymore because it is back at base.

 

Yep, like I thought. It's a Supers version of a Heroic Equipment Pool.

Seems REALLY abusive to me (sarcasm)

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

So you are imposing a houserule sfx rule to VPP frameworks. That's fine as a house rule but it isn't RAW.

No, in that instance I am using the VPP framework rules exactly as written on p. 411 of 6th Ed, vol. 1 and opting not to buy one of the listed available Advantages to speed up changing powers since the slower switch fits my conception of the character. Likewise, my earlier suggestion about buying the Advantage at the Half Phase level rather than Zero Phase wasn't meant to say the OP shouldn't buy the VPP to full-on Cosmic if he wants to, just to offer the slower option as potentially appropriate to the sfx described.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

No' date=' in that instance I am using the VPP framework rules [b']exactly[/b] as written on p. 411 of 6th Ed, vol. 1 and opting not to buy one of the listed available Advantages to speed up changing powers since the slower switch fits my conception of the character. Likewise, my earlier suggestion about buying the Advantage at the Half Phase level rather than Zero Phase wasn't meant to say the OP shouldn't buy the VPP to full-on Cosmic if he wants to, just to offer the slower option as potentially appropriate to the sfx described.

 

 

My apologies. I think I was responding to several different posters and I confused myself as to who was involved in what chain of posts.

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

Apology accepted. That had me running back to the rule book thinking "I know I haven't been using framework rules wrong all this time, I reread them like fifteen times when trying to figure out VPP mechanics for that character!"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

....

 

A VPP means you can take everything....

 

Nope.

 

There is nothing in the rules that assigns any "meaning" behind how a VPP works. That is all just special effects. A Limited VPP like the one being discussed here (see the 1st post of the thread) most certainly does not mean the character takes everything.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

 

My main opinion was against a "cosmic" VPP for equipment based characters.

 

Have you actually read the first post? (it doesn't appear so)

"Cosmic" in the context of an Advantage for a VPP is not a special effect like "equipment based".

There is no linkage between the two in the rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

To get the thread back into context:

 

Ok, designing a VPP, I am making it for a super soldier type who has access to a whole arsenal of weapons.

 

60 Pool

up to 60 Active Points (Control Cost: 30)

+2 Cosmic (This will allow him to change his weapons in the field, for others he is carrying)

-1/2 Limited Power, the powers chosen are based on what is available in the armory and what his commanders will allow him to have

-1/2 Limited Power: All Powers cannot have a real cost over 30 points: This is essentially a variation of Variable Limitations, requiring the power to be small or take up to -1 in limitations

-1/4 Predetermined Load. This limitation is basically that even though the character has a cosmic VPP he still has to decide on his powers and can only change them at a base, he can just go way over the pool cost with what he carries.

 

My main question is do you think the value of the limitations is appropriate, or am I double dipping any?

 

Ok, I will break this out for you, so you can get an idea of how it works in Play

 

Bronze Avenger, (60 point pool, 60 point control, cosmic, limitations), Agent of PRIMUS goes and checks out at the base the following kit

 

Suit of armor (25 Real Points)

 

A Blaster Riffle (30 Real Points)

2 Concussion Grades (20 Real Points)

4 Flash Bangs (20 Real Points)

Sonic Stun Pistol (25 Real Points)

 

ok, real points he has "Checked out" 120 Real points of gear, this will not all fit in his pool (60 points).

 

In the field his armor is always on, so he has 35 points active in his pool, he can switch his weapons (the 4 he has on him) at any time, as a 0 phase action without a skill roll. Thus cosmic.

 

Later he decides the Sonic pistol is not helping him so he goes back and trades it in for a neuropistol. Later he can not use the sonic pistol anymore because it is back at base.

 

 

It seems like the construct is appropriate for the desired effect. The character can carry a theoretically unlimited amount of gear (practically limited by what his superiors will allow), and switch between that gear at will. However, he must define what he is carrying in advance.

 

The question is whether the limitation value/cost is appropriate.

 

For a pure Cosmic VPP, control cost would be 90. A pool that can only change back at base would have a control cost of 20, and one that can change only with a skill roll and a full phase would cost 30.

 

While this character is less limited than "change only at base", I'd say he's about as limited as "change with a skill roll and a full phase". He can change faster, but can't redefine his slots.

 

-1/2 for "limited SFX" applies, so to me that covers the armory itself. The real cost limit seems reasonable at -1/2, purely on gut feel. So that leaves an appropriate limitation for "pre-determined load limited to what CO's will allow". I'd say -1/2 to -1, depending on the extent of gear available and how restrictive the CO's are expected to be. I'd feel OK with a total -2 limitation based on the description, including the comment by another poster that a lot of powers are excluded by implication, and the fairly limited load described above, so that would be -1.

 

JMOz, how much do you view him being able to carry at a time? Your example above looks to hold him to 120 RP, since he trades in the sonic pistol rather than just adding the neuropistol. That seems pretty restricted to me. A control cost of 30, for a total cost of 90 (bit lower for both, as I assume there will be a Focus requirement as well), would not seem unreasonable.

[JmOz]

Re: Help with a VPP

 

To get the thread back into context:

 

 

 

 

 

It seems like the construct is appropriate for the desired effect. The character can carry a theoretically unlimited amount of gear (practically limited by what his superiors will allow), and switch between that gear at will. However, he must define what he is carrying in advance.

 

The question is whether the limitation value/cost is appropriate.

 

For a pure Cosmic VPP, control cost would be 90. A pool that can only change back at base would have a control cost of 20, and one that can change only with a skill roll and a full phase would cost 30.

 

While this character is less limited than "change only at base", I'd say he's about as limited as "change with a skill roll and a full phase". He can change faster, but can't redefine his slots.

 

-1/2 for "limited SFX" applies, so to me that covers the armory itself. The real cost limit seems reasonable at -1/2, purely on gut feel. So that leaves an appropriate limitation for "pre-determined load limited to what CO's will allow". I'd say -1/2 to -1, depending on the extent of gear available and how restrictive the CO's are expected to be. I'd feel OK with a total -2 limitation based on the description, including the comment by another poster that a lot of powers are excluded by implication, and the fairly limited load described above, so that would be -1.

 

JMOz, how much do you view him being able to carry at a time? Your example above looks to hold him to 120 RP, since he trades in the sonic pistol rather than just adding the neuropistol. That seems pretty restricted to me. A control cost of 30, for a total cost of 90 (bit lower for both, as I assume there will be a Focus requirement as well), would not seem unreasonable.

 

For me it really is about the size of the focus more than a RP cost. Armor, a sidearm, a main weapon, and a few aux weapons (the grenades in the example) seems right to me.