screamingtongue Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 I'm curious about how money works with powers and equipment in heroic campaigns. None of the manuals I have go into much detail on this, and I had worked out my own system (where money is arbitrarily worth 100 x 1 character point, so a piece of gear with a 25 point real cost would cost 2,500 points of money). But I received the Hero System Bestiary as an early Christmas gift, and it has some specifics about money near the end of chapter one, where animal parts are worth the AP of the powers they support, multiplied by modifiers for how rare they are, how much demand there is, and how high a quality they are. Does/should equipment follow the same rules? For example, this set of pistols: Kinetic Pistol (20 AP/11 RP): 1d6 + 1 RKA vs PD (20), 4 Clips of 6 Charges (-1/4), STR Min 7 (-1/4), One Handed (-0), Real Weapon (-1/4) Double Pistols (+5 CP) Assuming that pistols are common enough in this world to meet demand, and that these pistols are of average quality, and they are not in any other way distinctive, would they be worth 25 dollars (or whatever monetary unit the game uses), as an identical power that stems from a part of an animal would? Or are there separate instructions for buying equipment with money in a guide somewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuSoardGraphite Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money It's abstract. It's up to each GM to decide the economy of scale for each of his or her campaigns. The real world is a pretty good guideline to how much things should cost, and most of the genre books (Star Hero, Fantasy Hero etc) have examples and guidelines on this very subject. Unless the GM deems it so, the cost of objects is NOT dependent on its point cost. In Heroic campaigns, characters should only pay points for powers and abilities that are a part of them. Any and all other equipment is either purchased with money or found/pilfered or assigned to them (as with any other RPG out there) You treat it like you would D&D or RIFTS or Shadowrun or Traveller etc. If you are stuck for figuring out how much something should cost, simply look up the equivalent item online to see how much it cost, or look up equipment/item/weapons listings in other RPG's and use the cost there (in gold or silver or copper or dollars or credits or whatever). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screamingtongue Posted December 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Unfortunately I don't have any of the genre books, so their recommendations aren't of much help to me. I was surprised to find the economic guide in the bestiary, and thought maybe there were formal rules for equipment pricing. I think I'll stick with my original pricing scheme, then, and adapt bestiary recommendations to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money As an option, the APG has a "Resource Pool" system. It doesn't deals with the worth of items, but at least it helps balance items that are not bought with points. For price conversion of animal parts, keep in mind that this is a) selling, so the prices are lower than waht it is worth these thigns are only raw material for otehr things, so again not much worth c) weapons also have a lot of "processing" value. They are the raw material and the time/workforce spend to make something from those raw materials. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted December 24, 2011 Report Share Posted December 24, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money there is the wealth perk in the core books if you are looking as to how much money you have it is more as an income thing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money I didn't find the options provided by the Hero System for dealing with money satisfying, and felt that Resource Points made for too much extra bookkeeping, so I've developed my own (warning: not yet play-tested). I've pulled the relevant pages of my house rules into a PDF and provided it below. [ATTACH=CONFIG]41084[/ATTACH] Summing up: You assign an Item Cash Value (ICV) to the object or service you wish to purchase, then use your Finance Cash Value (FCV) to attempt a purchase. The roll works just like OCV vs. DCV in combat. If the roll succeeds, you can afford the item, otherwise, you cannot. You still have to pay Character Points for equipment in Super Heroic campaigns, but it prevents even rich characters from buying their way out of every jam. FCV doesn't just represent money, either, but the resources to maintain the items purchased (the GM can require a FCV roll on the cost of keeping equipment maintained, paying off loans, etc, on top of rolls for making any purchases. I have rules for using Trading with this system to negotiating over ICV. I even have guidelines for increasing the difficulty of using FCV as the character spends money and for decreasing that difficulty as he earns more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escafarc Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Track down a copy of this... [ATTACH=CONFIG]41087[/ATTACH] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money The problem with point-based pricing is that it makes a Stone of Immortality cheap compared to a broadsword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beast Posted December 25, 2011 Report Share Posted December 25, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money That is something the GM should be allowing or disallowing \ The problem with point-based pricing is that it makes a Stone of Immortality cheap compared to a broadsword. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money The problem with point-based pricing is that it makes a Stone of Immortality cheap compared to a broadsword. You'd wind up with a Stone of Immortality that gets destroyed if it takes more than 3 points of Killing Damage BODY. Then suddenly you wonder if you should have spent the money on that broadsword... I see your point though; basing price solely on points ignores the supply/demand dynamic. You could set up a modifier to ICV based on rarity, and another based on economic demand (after all, just because something is rare doesn't mean that people need it, and just because something is common doesn't mean that people won't want it). Such modifiers might look like those shown in the table below. [TABLE=class: outer_border, width: 500, align: center] [TR] [TD=align: center]ICV Modifier[/TD] [TD]Supply[/TD] [TD]Demand[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+7 or more [/TD] [TD]Scarce[/TD] [TD]Obsession[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+4 to +6[/TD] [TD]Very Rare[/TD] [TD]Highly Desired[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+2 to +3[/TD] [TD]Rare[/TD] [TD]Desired[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+1[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Rare[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Desired[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+0[/TD] [TD]Neutral[/TD] [TD]Neutral[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-1[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Common[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Disliked[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-2 to -3[/TD] [TD]Common[/TD] [TD]Disliked[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-4 to -6[/TD] [TD]Very Common[/TD] [TD]Highly Disliked[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-7 or less[/TD] [TD]Plentiful[/TD] [TD]Hands Off[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] The Somewhat Disliked through Hands Off sections of Demand represent markets with lower than neutral demand for the item; the object is a hard sell, though you may still find a buyer hidden there somewhere. Even in a Hands Off situation, you could feasibly find a buyer, but that buyer will only buy if the price is right. You would also have to consider the market for an item; after all, what one market considers Highly Desired another may consider Highly Disliked. For example, a pawn broker may treat your firearm as Hands Off, since he could go to jail for dealing in it. However, that same item may prove Somewhat Desired in the black market. Likewise, gold may prove Scarce in one country and Plentiful in another. The GM should also consider if the campaign takes place on the border of two regions with different levels of Supply and Demand, since in that border region, those traits may split the difference, or may make getting a better deal prove as easy (or as difficult) as crossing a border. Note that the GM should apply these modifiers before the item gets presented to the player for purchase (or before the player's character tries to sell the item; if the player fails a Trading roll before putting the item for sale, he may price the item incorrectly for the market, and suffer a penalty to any Trading rolls he makes to negotiate a price with a buyer). Once the GM has set the price, it should only change during the bartering process as a result of the character's Trading rolls. So, assuming the above, we could have a Stone of Immortality with a Base ICV of 1, but Scarce and Highly Desired (total bonus +13) for an ICV of 14, and a broadsword with a Base ICV of 3, Very Common (-4) and Neutral (+0), for a Total ICV of 0 (you can never have ICV fall below 0) and a bonus to FCV for any buyer of +1. This restores balance to the economic force. ASIDE: I just want to say that I love the fact that we have these forums because of exactly this situation: putting house rules before the community points out flaws in reasoning which leads to better house rules. I just want to thank everyone in the forums for all of the great feedback you all provide and the help you give. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Thanks for providing us a Reality check Lucius Alexander The excited palindromedary says what's this about getting a check and when can we cash it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Thanks for providing us a Reality check Lucius Alexander The excited palindromedary says what's this about getting a check and when can we cash it? Love the pun. I use the name of my first superhero character as my online name. He was a brick with magic immunity whose battle cry was "It's time to face Reality!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Here's the updated version of the FCV house rules. [ATTACH=CONFIG]41091[/ATTACH] Thanks again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christopher Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money I see your point though; basing price solely on points ignores the supply/demand dynamic. Aside from brittle stones of imortality, you would also have very durable (and expensive) Torches... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money You'd wind up with a Stone of Immortality that gets destroyed if it takes more than 3 points of Killing Damage BODY. Then suddenly you wonder if you should have spent the money on that broadsword... I see your point though; basing price solely on points ignores the supply/demand dynamic. You could set up a modifier to ICV based on rarity, and another based on economic demand (after all, just because something is rare doesn't mean that people need it, and just because something is common doesn't mean that people won't want it). Such modifiers might look like those shown in the table below. [TABLE=class: outer_border, width: 500, align: center] [TR] [TD=align: center]ICV Modifier[/TD] [TD]Supply[/TD] [TD]Demand[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+7 or more [/TD] [TD]Scarce[/TD] [TD]Obsession[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+4 to +6[/TD] [TD]Very Rare[/TD] [TD]Highly Desired[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+2 to +3[/TD] [TD]Rare[/TD] [TD]Desired[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+1[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Rare[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Desired[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]+0[/TD] [TD]Neutral[/TD] [TD]Neutral[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-1[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Common[/TD] [TD]Somewhat Disliked[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-2 to -3[/TD] [TD]Common[/TD] [TD]Disliked[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-4 to -6[/TD] [TD]Very Common[/TD] [TD]Highly Disliked[/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=align: center]-7 or less[/TD] [TD]Plentiful[/TD] [TD]Hands Off[/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] The Somewhat Disliked through Hands Off sections of Demand represent markets with lower than neutral demand for the item; the object is a hard sell, though you may still find a buyer hidden there somewhere. Even in a Hands Off situation, you could feasibly find a buyer, but that buyer will only buy if the price is right. You would also have to consider the market for an item; after all, what one market considers Highly Desired another may consider Highly Disliked. For example, a pawn broker may treat your firearm as Hands Off, since he could go to jail for dealing in it. However, that same item may prove Somewhat Desired in the black market. Likewise, gold may prove Scarce in one country and Plentiful in another. The GM should also consider if the campaign takes place on the border of two regions with different levels of Supply and Demand, since in that border region, those traits may split the difference, or may make getting a better deal prove as easy (or as difficult) as crossing a border. Note that the GM should apply these modifiers before the item gets presented to the player for purchase (or before the player's character tries to sell the item; if the player fails a Trading roll before putting the item for sale, he may price the item incorrectly for the market, and suffer a penalty to any Trading rolls he makes to negotiate a price with a buyer). Once the GM has set the price, it should only change during the bartering process as a result of the character's Trading rolls. So, assuming the above, we could have a Stone of Immortality with a Base ICV of 1, but Scarce and Highly Desired (total bonus +13) for an ICV of 14, and a broadsword with a Base ICV of 3, Very Common (-4) and Neutral (+0), for a Total ICV of 0 (you can never have ICV fall below 0) and a bonus to FCV for any buyer of +1. This restores balance to the economic force. Just thought of something else. Used items will have a reduced ICV, based on condition and age, on top of the modifiers for Supply and Demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted December 26, 2011 Report Share Posted December 26, 2011 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Aside from brittle stones of imortality' date=' you would also have very durable (and expensive) Torches...[/quote'] Torches (or their hi-tech equivalent) would prove so common that they would probably have an ICV cost of between 0 and 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Armitage Posted January 7, 2012 Report Share Posted January 7, 2012 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Here's the updated version of the FCV house rules. On the Cash Equivalence Table, was there a system you used for determining the dollar amounts at each level? What would be on the table at higher levels? e.g. what would the ICV and B.T.D. be for a $25 billion spaceship, not going by Real Points? The dollar amounts on the table increase by factors from 1.25 to 10, but I didn't see a pattern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reality Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Re: Buying Equipment with Money I just revisited this thread and saw that there was a question left unanswered. Sorry, Armitage, I thought the thread had died. In answer to your question, I didn't have a calculation for the CET. To be honest, I wasn't thinking about prices in the billions. I went more along the lines of what felt natural. Kind of like the Time Chart doesn't really follow a true calculation (and has various alternate versions), the CET is an example of one possible layout. If it doesn't fit the game, alter it. B.T.D. progresses every four ICV. If you wanted a more natural progression of X2 for every level, you could do that. In that case, the ICV for $25 billions would be about 31. That would put B.T.D. at about -8. [TABLE] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] ICV [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] Cash [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #ebebeb] B.T.D. [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 1 [/TD] [TD] $25 [/TD] [TD][/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 2 [/TD] [TD] $50 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 3 [/TD] [TD] $100 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 4 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $200 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] -1 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 5 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 6 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 7 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $1,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 8 [/TD] [TD] $3,200 [/TD] [TD] -2 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 9 [/TD] [TD] $6,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 10 [/TD] [TD] $12,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 11 [/TD] [TD] $25,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 12 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $51,200 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] -3 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 13 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $102,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 14 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $204,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 15 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $409,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 16 [/TD] [TD] $819,200 [/TD] [TD] -4 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 17 [/TD] [TD] $1,638,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 18 [/TD] [TD] $3,276,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 19 [/TD] [TD] $6,553,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 20 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $13,107,200 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] -5 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 21 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $26,214,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 22 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $52,428,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 23 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $104,857,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 24 [/TD] [TD] $209,715,200 [/TD] [TD] -6 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 25 [/TD] [TD] $419,430,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 26 [/TD] [TD] $838,860,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 27 [/TD] [TD] $1,677,721,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 28 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $3,355,443,200 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] -7 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 29 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $6,710,886,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 30 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $13,421,772,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 31 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $26,843,545,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 32 [/TD] [TD] $53,687,091,200 [/TD] [TD] -8 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 33 [/TD] [TD] $107,374,182,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 34 [/TD] [TD] $214,748,364,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 35 [/TD] [TD] $429,496,729,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 36 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $858,993,459,200 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] -9 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 37 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $1,717,986,918,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 38 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $3,435,973,836,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] 39 [/TD] [TD=bgcolor: #d6d6d6] $6,871,947,673,600 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 40 [/TD] [TD] $13,743,895,347,200 [/TD] [TD] -10 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 41 [/TD] [TD] $27,487,790,694,400 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 42 [/TD] [TD] $54,975,581,388,800 [/TD] [/TR] [TR] [TD] 43 [/TD] [TD] $109,951,162,777,600 [/TD] [/TR] [/TABLE] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moshez Posted November 29, 2012 Report Share Posted November 29, 2012 Re: Buying Equipment with Money Have you had a chance to playtest those rules yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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