Automatic for the people

[Sean Waters]

Long post. Sorry.

 

 

So I have a problemwith Automata powers: they are really useful but come with associatedbaggage I do not need and that hinders concept realisation becausethat associated baggage is entirely arbitrary. It does what Hero should not do, which is build to a pre-realised concept.

 

 

So, how about are-think of the very useful Automaton powers?

 

 

At present there are 4:

1. 
   
2. Can not be stunned
   
3. Does not take Stun
   
4. No Hit Locations
   
5. Does not Bleed
   

Now the last 2 arethere for optional rules anyway, and are going to be somewhatarbitrary in the costings. I don't usually use bleeding and hitlocations that much. I'm going to assume the cost is about right.

 

 

The first two cost 15points and 45/60 points respectively. They are more amenable toanalysis in terms of cost.

 

 

'Can not be stunned'can be achieved by applying the absolute effect rule (to the extentthat we ever should apply the absolute effect rule) to Constitution:what value of CON (Only to prevent stunning -1/4) would you need? Well, 15 points, which is what it costs, is the equivalent of about19 points of CON. Not bad, I suppose: you're not going to take 30points of damage from a single hit that often in most games.

 

 

Of course things arecomplicated by the fact that if you DO buy 'Can't be Stunned' thereis nothing (other than a lingering desire to occasionally make CONrolls – another thing that does not come up much in practice in mygames) to stop you selling back your CON. The dynamics of CON costchanged from 5e to 6e, but that was not reflected here. So thatmucks things up a bit but I'd rather have the choice of buying 'CBS'than not, if only for the convenience, and at least the cost isalmost certainly over not under.

 

 

Takes No Stun, on theother had, is more of an issue. You could – sort of – do it byusing Damage Reduction. There are arguments over whether you shouldever get to 100%DR, but APG says you might allow it at 120 points. So Physical and energy full DR, resistant but Stun Only costs 160points. You might as well sell back your STUN and CON too but thenet effect is still 140 points, so the cost seems to be way out.

 

 

This is probably why wehave the odd rules about tripling your cost for any defences you dobuy and all this 'mindless' mularkey.

 

 

The increased cost ofdefences is a very good idea in fact: it helps to balance the powerwith how useful it actually is: not much use being immune to stundamage if you can be dismantled by an eight year old with a baseballbat.

 

 

In a 'Superhero'campaign with 12 dice damage on a regular basis, you would probablyneed 10 to 12 resistant defences to last very long, so the total costwill be 150 to 168 points, which balances out quite nicely with thecost of building 'immunity to stun'. In lower damage campaigns theeffective cost will be less. Which is nice.

 

 

One thing I've ignoredin the 'Stun' stakes though is mental powers: immunity to ALL Stunwould up the cost to 240 points, which is a lot, and knocks ourcalculation out.

 

 

Here's a solution. Ifyou want a robot body, why do you also need a robot brain? What iswrong with a perfectly normal mind (i.e. one that can affect and beaffected by mental powers) in an unusual body?

 

 

SO...you can 'buy' the'Mindless' power for a 'character'. Mindless characters cannotaffect or be affected by mental powers or any power that targetsMDCV. The character can not make decisions of its own. It does nothave a mind. You'll need to buy it a computer mind if you want it todo things on its own or you'll need to give it commands.

 

 

OR...you just have anormal mind in there.

 

 

One other thing, whileI am at it: why should we have a different rule about Body at zero? 'Normal' characters get to zero then, after that, deteriorate. Automata could easily do the same. You could have a 5 point power'does not deteriorate after zero Body, but you could say that anyonecould buy that. Or buy 'does not bleed'.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Of course things arecomplicated by the fact that if you DO buy 'Can't be Stunned' thereis nothing (other than a lingering desire to occasionally make CONrolls – another thing that does not come up much in practice in mygames) to stop you selling back your CON. The dynamics of CON costchanged from 5e to 6e' date=' but that was not reflected here. So thatmucks things up a bit but I'd rather have the choice of buying 'CBS'than not, if only for the convenience, and at least the cost isalmost certainly over not under.[/quote']

You shouldn't sell Con back. Once your con Reaches 0, you have to make a Con roll to spend any Endurance. And the typical dispel/drain Technology is bought to "Any tech characteristic or power, one at a time).

 

Takes No Stun, on theother had, is more of an issue. You could – sort of – do it byusing Damage Reduction. There are arguments over whether you shouldever get to 100%DR, but APG says you might allow it at 120 points. So Physical and energy full DR, resistant but Stun Only costs 160points. You might as well sell back your STUN and CON too but thenet effect is still 140 points, so the cost seems to be way out.

 

This is probably why wehave the odd rules about tripling your cost for any defences you dobuy and all this 'mindless' mularkey.

I see a few reasons

1. It's part of the low price for "Cannot be stunned".

2. Balancing. It makes Resistant Defenese (the ones you will need) that more expensive. 4.5 Points/point def is a high price. Togehter with Defense caps (and the guideline to count the trippling when derterminign balance) will mean that you will still be vulnerable Killing Attacks.

 

One thing I've ignoredin the 'Stun' stakes though is mental powers: immunity to ALL Stunwould up the cost to 240 points' date=' which is a lot, and knocks ourcalculation out.[/quote']

This could be a potential pricing bug. Since those powers are for automatons and automatons are immune to any mental attack, "Immunity to Mental Stun" was perhaps not considered.

 

Here's a solution. Ifyou want a robot body, why do you also need a robot brain? What iswrong with a perfectly normal mind (i.e. one that can affect and beaffected by mental powers) in an unusual body?

 

SO...you can 'buy' the'Mindless' power for a 'character'. Mindless characters cannotaffect or be affected by mental powers or any power that targetsMDCV. The character can not make decisions of its own. It does nothave a mind. You'll need to buy it a computer mind if you want it todo things on its own or you'll need to give it commands.

While such a thing would be desirable (I have one or two not unbalacing things I could use it for), we should better let Steve Long figure that one out. It's certainly on my list of things for the next version/APG.

[Ice9]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Personally, I make a slight change to how Takes No Stun interacts with defenses. Instead of changing the cost, you simply divide any static amount of PD/ED the character has by 3. Works more nicely with things like Growth and Density Increase, and avoids the strange situation of charging more for things that aren't actually more effective (like DN and DR, or most egregiously, DCV). Now arguably, you could say this should apply to Mental Defense and Power Defense too, in the case of AVAD Does Body attacks. However, those are fairly rare, it unfairly denies people effective Mind Control / Drain defense, and you're paying 60 points for the base power anyway.

 

I didn't even remember that the power comes with Mindlessness, have never used it that way, and don't intend to start now.

 

 

You shouldn't sell Con back. Once your con Reaches 0' date=' you have to make a Con roll to spend any Endurance. And the typical dispel/drain Technology is bought to "Any tech characteristic or power, one at a time).[/quote']Not so sure about this - Con 1 still lets you spend END just fine, Drain CON is pretty rare (and how would your foes know you were particularly vulnerable to it?), and many characters with Takes No Stun also replace their END with an END Reserve (although there's less reason to do so in 6E).

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Personally' date=' I make a slight change to how Takes No Stun interacts with defenses. Instead of changing the cost, you simply divide any static amount of PD/ED the character has by 3. Works more nicely with things like Growth and Density Increase, and avoids the strange situation of charging more for things that aren't actually more effective (like DN and DR, or most egregiously, DCV). Now arguably, you could say this should apply to Mental Defense and Power Defense too, in the case of AVAD Does Body attacks. However, those are fairly rare, it unfairly denies people effective Mind Control / Drain defense, and you're paying 60 points for the base power anyway.[/quote']

In my understanting, neither Mental, Flash nor Power Defense is affected. Only PD/ED and DCV.

 

I didn't even remember that the power comes with Mindlessness' date=' have never used it that way, and don't intend to start now.[/quote']

Mindlessness is part of the Automaton Template. He proposed to make it a power too, like the other automaton powers.

 

Not so sure about this - Con 1 still lets you spend END just fine' date=' Drain CON is pretty rare (and how would your foes know you were particularly vulnerable to it?), and many characters with Takes No Stun also replace their END with an END Reserve (although there's less reason to do so in 6E).[/quote']

Vulnerable can also mean that you didn't bought it up. Wich is likely if you have those automaton powers. So it's a valid target. And "Any characteristic" Draisn are not that hard to come by.

But true: A lot of those who buy these powers, also do something about End-Expending - buying everything 0 End is given as book example.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Personally, I make a slight change to how Takes No Stun interacts with defenses. Instead of changing the cost, you simply divide any static amount of PD/ED the character has by 3. Works more nicely with things like Growth and Density Increase, and avoids the strange situation of charging more for things that aren't actually more effective (like DN and DR, or most egregiously, DCV). Now arguably, you could say this should apply to Mental Defense and Power Defense too, in the case of AVAD Does Body attacks. However, those are fairly rare, it unfairly denies people effective Mind Control / Drain defense, and you're paying 60 points for the base power anyway.

 

I didn't even remember that the power comes with Mindlessness, have never used it that way, and don't intend to start now.

 

That is precisely the point: the powers seem to actually be costed about right without the 'Automaton Template' that Christopher mentions and that is apparently required when using Automaton powers. I know I was a bit long winded (shock, horror!) but I was trying to show that the costing is actually about right WITHOUT the 'mindlessness' thing (which also makes automatons immune to PRE attacks and such).

 

Hero now uses the standard DnD characteristic matrix*:

 

STR: STR

DEX: DEX

CON: CON

INT: INT

EGO: WIS

PRE: CHA

 

Which is neatly divided into (top 3) physical characteristics (bottom 3) 'mental' characteristics. My feeling is that Automaton should very much be a STOP power - and require DM permission to use with a character - but should be available for the right characters as needed, without having to be a 'standard Automaton Template' mindless freakazoid, and so should 'just' affect the physical side of the character and not the mental - at least not by default.

 

Whilst I am ranting, can I also say that in many cases I do not see a problem with "zombies, robots and blobs" being stunnable and taking stun: you could potentially hit a robot with your fist hard enough to reset its buffers (or whatever) and leave it stunned or 'unconscious' for a time without actually destroying it. I think it is worth mentioning that, just because you have a robot character, you should not be using Automaton powers without good reason.

 

 

 

*

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Whilst I am ranting' date=' can I also say that in many cases I do not see a problem with "zombies, robots and blobs" being stunnable and taking stun: you could potentially hit a robot with your fist hard enough to reset its buffers (or whatever) and leave it stunned or 'unconscious' for a time without actually destroying it. I think it is worth mentioning that, just because you have a robot character, you should not be using Automaton powers without good reason.[/quote']

I think being stunnable should even be the default for player characters. I usually just say "so advanced/good at copying life, it's also as vulnerable as a living being."

 

For example, one of my concepts is a Robot that also is the "Life Support" gear for a living character. So if the robot is hit, the energy will go into the Live support/inertial dampers first - propably leaving the robot without ability to act - a simple logic for being Stunned/K.O.

 

I still think the "No Stun" makes sense for msot Robot(Zombie) mooks/Robot Followers. On the one hand it simulates an enemy that fights relentless. On the otehr hand, it allows the players to use killing attacks.

[Lucius]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

As far as I know, it is now legal to buy Automaton Powers without being an Automaton.

 

So I'm not sure what it is you're asking for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automating a palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

As far as I know, it is now legal to buy Automaton Powers without being an Automaton.

 

So I'm not sure what it is you're asking for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automating a palindromedary

 

I think he means/wants this:

Mindlessness is part of the Automaton Template. He proposed to make it a power too' date=' like the other automaton powers.[/quote']

[Lucius]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

I think he means/wants this:

 

The only reason I can think of for doing that would be if you want to have a character that is mindless only in certain ways or at certain times. You can do the latter now with Multiform.

 

If you want a mindless character without the Automaton Powers, take the Automaton Template and don't buy the Powers. Like my fembots.

 

If you want the Powers without the mindlessness, just buy the Powers on a regular template. I've done that for berserkers.

 

edit: Before making a snap judgment, I think I'll wait for further input.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or being a palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

The only reason I can think of for doing that would be if you want to have a character that is mindless only in certain ways or at certain times. You can do the latter now with Multiform.

What do you suggest here? Taking an alternate for with the Automaton Template? Is that even legal?

[Lucius]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

What do you suggest here? Taking an alternate for with the Automaton Template? Is that even legal?

 

Yep. so is a Multiform into a vehicle - just ask My Mother, the Car. Or a Multiform to Base - you really can be One with the Land.

 

My favorite, however, is Multiform to AI.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Multiform to Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Yep. so is a Multiform into a vehicle - just ask My Mother, the Car. Or a Multiform to Base - you really can be One with the Land.

 

My favorite, however, is Multiform to AI.

I doubt that using any template other than Character is valid for PC's. It would certainly introduce many problems regarding balancing.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

One quick point re: Does Not Bleed.

 

The Does Not Bleed power isn't just for the optional bleeding rules: it also applies to characters who are reduced to less than 0 Body, so it would be useful in any campaign, whether the optional bleeding rules are in use or not.

 

I've used it for a half-cyborg character, with an activation roll. When he was reduced to negative body, if the Does Not Bleed power activated, the wound was assumed to have hit his cyborg half instead of his human half, so he could keep functioning without losing further body.

 

In my Star Hero campaign, I've also used Does Not Bleed with the Useable On Others advantage to build a high-tech "auto-doc" trauma unit which can stabilize a dying patient: if it's hooked up to the victim before they die, they stop losing Body. (This is for a campaign in which rapid Regeneration and/or Healing was deemed too "ultra tech" and something more realistic was needed.)

[phoenix240]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

I doubt that using any template other than Character is valid for PC's. It would certainly introduce many problems regarding balancing.

 

As far as I know its not expressly forbidden. It's an unusual approach but could be useful for some certain concepts like Turbo Teen or Box from Alpha Flight).

[Lucius]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

I doubt that using any template other than Character is valid for PC's. It would certainly introduce many problems regarding balancing.

 

According to Mr. Long, it is.

 

And in my opinion, the major problem isn't one of balance, it's a question of "Can you play your character at all?" An Automaton does what it's programmed to do, a Vehicle is driven, and a Base doesn't make a lot of choices either.

 

There's also the question of how (or if) you change back. If you have no free will, you can't choose to return to your former state.

 

But Multiform to Automaton is legal. So is an Automaton with no Automaton Powers, whether it's one of a Multiform or not. And so is taking Automaton Powers without being an Automaton.

 

So my question remains: what the heck is Sean Waters going on about?

 

And is it part of his nefarious plot to expand the 7th edition to FOUR volumes?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

We should feed him to a palindromedary

[Martin2]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

One quick point re: Does Not Bleed.

 

In my Star Hero campaign, I've also used Does Not Bleed with the Useable On Others advantage to build a high-tech "auto-doc" trauma unit which can stabilize a dying patient: if it's hooked up to the victim before they die, they stop losing Body. (This is for a campaign in which rapid Regeneration and/or Healing was deemed too "ultra tech" and something more realistic was needed.)

 

That got me thinking about first aid equipment and base equipment. First aid kit "does not bleed usable on others requires a skill roll". Medical bay same sort of thing + "regeneration points per day , usable on others requires skill roll etc"

[Lucius]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

I think using "Does not Bleed" that way is technically overkill. (The sort of overkill I'm prone to myself I suppose.....)

 

As I understand it, you can stop bleeding with a Paramedics (First Aid, Chirurgeon, whatever the name is in a given campaign) roll anyway, so it doesn't call for a Power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automatic for the palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

I think using "Does not Bleed" that way is technically overkill. (The sort of overkill I'm prone to myself I suppose.....)

 

As I understand it, you can stop bleeding with a Paramedics (First Aid, Chirurgeon, whatever the name is in a given campaign) roll anyway, so it doesn't call for a Power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automatic for the palindromedary

Unlike the Roll for stopping te optional Bleeding Rule, the "below 0 Body Bleeding to death" suffers a -1 per 2 Body lost to the roll. Considering that equipment usually starts with a 9- roll for 3 points, the power way could jsut be cheaper...

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

I think using "Does not Bleed" that way is technically overkill. (The sort of overkill I'm prone to myself I suppose.....)

 

As I understand it, you can stop bleeding with a Paramedics (First Aid, Chirurgeon, whatever the name is in a given campaign) roll anyway, so it doesn't call for a Power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automatic for the palindromedary

 

Powers >>> Skills. You can avoid being seen using a skill roll if you've got Stealth, or you can obviate the roll altogether with Invisibility. You can break out of some Entangles using a skill roll if you've got the Contortionist skill, or you can skip the roll using the Desolid power. But I've never heard anyone say, "Oh, there's a skill for that, you don't need a power."

 

The above example of Paramedic skill vs. Does Not Bleed: useable by other is yet another example of this.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

As far as I know, it is now legal to buy Automaton Powers without being an Automaton.

 

So I'm not sure what it is you're asking for.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Automating a palindromedary

 

You might well be right, which is cushty and exactly what I want. I had not interpreted it that way, but I am happy to.

 

Interesting thought: Takes No Stun on 11- activation might be a good way to do a cyborg with robot limbs.

[Lucius]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Powers >>> Skills. You can avoid being seen using a skill roll if you've got Stealth' date=' or you can obviate the roll altogether with Invisibility. You can break out of some Entangles using a skill roll if you've got the Contortionist skill, or you can skip the roll using the Desolid power. But I've never heard anyone say, [i']"Oh, there's a skill for that, you don't need a power."[/i]

 

The above example of Paramedic skill vs. Does Not Bleed: useable by other is yet another example of this.

 

There's a skill for that, you don't need a power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I need a tagline. I have a palindromedary for that.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

There's a skill for that, you don't need a power.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

I need a tagline. I have a palindromedary for that.

 

Oh snap.

[Mister E]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

A Paramedic-based Transform that turns people temporarily into Automatons in order to stop bleeding? Nice!

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

A Paramedic-based Transform that turns people temporarily into Automatons in order to stop bleeding? Nice!

 

Well, not exactly. Anyone can take those powers in 6E, not just Automatons, so there's no need to change anyone into an Automaton.

 

I'm not sure about 5E. I think it's legal?

[phoenix240]

Re: Automatic for the people

 

Well, not exactly. Anyone can take those powers in 6E, not just Automatons, so there's no need to change anyone into an Automaton.

 

I'm not sure about 5E. I think it's legal?

 

AFAIK, Automaton powers for non Automatons has been a GM's discretion issue for awhile.