Bell curve spread?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

APG I 58 has a 5 poitns Dismissable adder for barrier.

 

 

But you could create one 'around' it.You just need to keep in mind that your initial barrier isn't at the maximum size already, or you could not craete a barrier big enough around it.

 

So I need either another adder (and what's the action cost to dismiss it?) or I need a bigger barrier, because these are purchased at the minimum size to englobe a target. Either will pull points away from the DEF and BOD.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Again' date=' however, you must pick the right slot. Another Entangle next phase enhances the first one. Another Barrier does not. I must guess the correct barrier to use the first time. My target can see out of all of the barriers you provide, and any flier cannot be targeted with anything other than a basic 6/6 Barrier, since you must use the non-anchored one against him.[/quote']

 

Not necessarily. For 1 more point (replacing slot 1) you can have this:

 

Barrier 7 PD/7 ED, 10 BODY (up to 6m long, 3m tall, and 1/2m thick)

 

That is big enough to englobe any of the others. So, hit them with the opaque one (which will also counter indirect, in effect, unless they have extrasensory perception of some sort) and then stick the slot one around the other globe. They then have to get through both - not just adding a point of Body as an additional entangle would. Sorry, it should have been 'Sight group' - same cost, forgot to change it in HD. For most opponents that is much more effective than an entangle. Hell, for 71 points I could have a 41 point cosmic VPP that allows me to build any of the above and tailor them to the target - increasing PD or ED or Body as needed. I can do that because Barrier is comparatively cheap.

 

 

 

Why can't the Entangle be a multipower full of entangles, if the barrier can be a multipower full of barriers? Either character can have Detect Best Choice of Advantages for Entangle/Barrier at the same level.

 

I've seen a lot of "entangle the target, then everyone co-ordinate with multiple attacks" (ab)uses suggested in the past. That doesn't work so well when the target still has his full DCV inside the barrier.

 

Entangle CAN be a MP full of Entangles. It just costs more.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Not necessarily. For 1 more point (replacing slot 1) you can have this:

 

Barrier 7 PD/7 ED, 10 BODY (up to 6m long, 3m tall, and 1/2m thick)

 

That is big enough to englobe any of the others. So, hit them with the opaque one (which will also counter indirect, in effect, unless they have extrasensory perception of some sort) and then stick the slot one around the other globe.

 

And the Mentalist with Mind Scan is thrilled with all of the extra defenses. The fellow with Indirect can take a recovery or two, then batter down the opaque wall and use the second wall as a shield while attacking outwards. Or just Teleport home - often, the villain need not defeat the heroes in battle to accomplish his goals. The Flyer can fly straight up. Do you prefer to batter down your own barrier to get at him, or just let him fly away?

 

The character in a Barrier has far more options than an Entangled character.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Official recognition Entangle used to have the ability to form a barrier, and that was taken out (without any cost reduction) and then Barrier was created that could do both. At the same time Force Wall disappeared.

 

I wonder whether we might not be better with a unified power that CAN do both, with a range of adders to, for example, allow you to create an immobile englobing barrier, or an englobing barrier that does not allow the target to move, preventing the sue of some focii, martial arts and such?

 

Drain could be used to prevent a target from moving and using his CV. Possibly a Drain Running, OCV, and DCV with a Physical Manifestation. Tweak it a bit -- allow the Drain to automatically last until the Physical Manifestation is broken or removed (permissible I think under a reasonable reading of that Limitation).

 

Telekinesis would probably be a better fit, for a ranged Grab, also with P.M.

 

Yet another alternative: Object Creation (APG2, p. 32) seems like an obvious and logical candidate under which to unify Barrier and Entangle, probably using adders as you mention.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Hi RDU Neil! I remember you from several years ago as well. I just came back recently with a spark to run a Fantasy Hero campaign. I haven't adopted all the 6th edition rules yet, so I'm just sticking with 5th ed as much as I can.

 

As for the barrier discussion, obviously everybody is going to have their own opinion. I'm sure the game designers did a lot of play testing to determine the point costs for powers like Barrier and Entangle and found the published values fair. If you, as the GM, find a player using them in a broken way then hit em with a banhammer! (Ban the power, not the player)

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

I think in the instance of englobing an opponent in a barrier, this is not something I'd allow one of my players to do very often. Barrier is a defensive power, Entangle is an offensive power. Yes, there's the potential to swap these out (encase a hurt friend in a block of ice, englobe an opponent in a barrier to trap them) but it shouldn't be abused. Look at the wording for the Power skill. It's used to do cool tricks with your powers, but if you do them a lot you really should pay points and buy a power to do that instead. Use your best judgement, that's why you're the GM and the players are the chumps who think they're smarter than you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

As for the barrier discussion' date=' obviously everybody is going to have their own opinion. I'm sure the game designers did a lot of play testing to determine the point costs for powers like Barrier and Entangle and found the published values fair. [/quote']

 

In all fairness, I don't believe Hero has a significant playtest budget, nor was there a lot of time between Steve beginning to write 6e and its release to permit extensive playtesting. The possibility a new power might need some balancing going forward seems reasonable. Entangle, while it has been tweaked a bit from edition to edition, has held its pricing, and has never seemed problematic, so I think it has found its level. Some of the modifiers added in more recent editions - maybe not so much.

 

Mind you, I seem to recall discussions of Transparent entangles. As we're discussing an optimized englobing barrier, let's optimize an Entangle to allow teammates to attack a zero DCV foe. It should be Transparent (+1/2) so teammates' attacks don't break it and the victim gets no extra defenses. So how about a 3d6 Entangle, 5 PD/ED (so it will be a bit more sturdy against that initial casual attack), Transparent. Use it right after the non-Brick target opponent attacks to maximize the time before he gets another phase to escape. He's now 0 DCV, so Multiple Attack him into oblivion. Repeat with next target.

 

We can slap it in a Multipower with options that have 1 hex area (for those hard to hit targets), Affects Desolid, and Can't Escape with T-Port so we'll have lots of options for characters who find it too easy to escape a standard Entangle.

 

Is that less abusive than Englobing Barrier Man?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Also I think we could have quite happily got rid of the Killing attack mechanic altogether and simply used AVAD to create Killing Attacks, which they would have been rather than 'Destruction Attacks'.

 

Discuss.

 

I could see that but I prefer my Non resistance piercing solution with resistant piercing helping out for armor piercing utility.

[Christopher]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Hi RDU Neil! I remember you from several years ago as well. I just came back recently with a spark to run a Fantasy Hero campaign. I haven't adopted all the 6th edition rules yet, so I'm just sticking with 5th ed as much as I can.

 

As for the barrier discussion, obviously everybody is going to have their own opinion. I'm sure the game designers did a lot of play testing to determine the point costs for powers like Barrier and Entangle and found the published values fair. If you, as the GM, find a player using them in a broken way then hit em with a banhammer! (Ban the power, not the player)

I think they just took Force Wall, and calculated the "Costs Endurance" out. In basis the prices for Body and Defenses are the same as for characters and for englobing you only need little surface area.

[Phil]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Do we actually need characteristics, I mean...

 

 

Not unless they directly describe an effect, no we don't. Effects-based extremism is still alive and well, albeit in hiding :-)

[MisterVimes]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

Not unless they directly describe an effect' date=' no we don't. Effects-based extremism is still alive and well, albeit in hiding :-)[/quote']

 

Power to the people! That's what I try and hammer home to my group regarding this rules set.

[Manic Typist]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

And the Mentalist with Mind Scan is thrilled with all of the extra defenses. The fellow with Indirect can take a recovery or two, then batter down the opaque wall and use the second wall as a shield while attacking outwards. Or just Teleport home - often, the villain need not defeat the heroes in battle to accomplish his goals. The Flyer can fly straight up. Do you prefer to batter down your own barrier to get at him, or just let him fly away?

 

The character in a Barrier has far more options than an Entangled character.

 

I'm sorry, I don't often participate in these conversations, so maybe this is obvious and just over my head.

 

But, couldn't any one of your examples just as feasibly apply for an Entangled character? The Mentalist, an Indirect Power, Teleportation, Flight (depending on how it was built and interacting SFX of the Flight and the Entangle)......

[Ndreare]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

at a certain point the original point does not matter and the argument itself is the point

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

I'm sorry, I don't often participate in these conversations, so maybe this is obvious and just over my head.

 

But, couldn't any one of your examples just as feasibly apply for an Entangled character? The Mentalist

 

is immobilized, losing line of sight when you pass beyond his arc of vision. He could still manage with Mind Scan, though. However, he has 0 DCV, so can be targeted with a Multiple Attack pretty easily. Within a Barrier, he has full DCV (and since you can't see in, he's very tough to hit with that Multiple Attack)

 

 

an Indirect Power

 

must still be targeted with a targeting sense. Again, walk out of his arc of vision and he has a much tougher time hitting. And he's still 0 DCV.

 

Teleportation' date=' Flight (depending on how it was built and interacting SFX of the Flight and the Entangle)......[/quote']

 

You can't Teleport back into the Entangle to get the defenses back, and "immobilized" means you can't fly away, where you can move the barrier englobing you as long as you can lift it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Bell curve spread?

 

at a certain point the original point does not matter and the argument itself is the point

 

Can I get a Hallelluja!

 

Although I really do enjoy these little discussions, for their own sake, I also think that it is helpful to have some in-depth analysis, because it gets an idea lodged in your back-brain that often germinates later on. Although it may not seem like it I have changed my view on a lot of Hero topics over the years as a result of arguments and, even when I haven't, I think I have a better understanding of the issues as a result.