Enhancing weapons

[mhd]

I'm trying to convert over a few things from other systems, and am currently looking for the best ways to have a character enhance normal weapons.

 

To give one example I'm currently running a campaign in the Iron Kingdoms setting, where there are "gun mages" able to enchant their weapons. In our current GURPS-based system, one PC is able to do the following three tricks:

 

a) add fire damage to his bullets

make the bullets armor piercing

c) fire unlimited "smoke bullets" instead of normal ammo

 

It takes about ten minutes to prepare a gun to use one o those tricks (in the original setting it also damages any gun not made out of a special alloy, but I don't have any specific rules for that, they just deteriorate faster than normal).

 

© looks simple enough, basically a blast with an OAF. ( is basically a Power Advantage to a weapon that you didn't spend points on, this being a Heroic campaign… Statting up the gun and having it cost the difference between the enhanced and the unehanced versions almost seems a bit too cheap.

 

Generally, does it make a big difference if a focus is specific, i.e. whether it's OAF - sword of my holy order or OAF - any weapon?

 

(Note: Those things are really messy to build in GURPS in a canonic way, one of the reasons why I'm looking into alternate systems)

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

For (a), do you want to add additional fire damage to the bullet, or do they turn into "fire bullets"?

 

For (, it's easy enough. Armor Piercing is a +1/4 Advantage. In HERO System you can buy a "naked advantage", which means you would pay for the points the Advantage would cost, only it would be a separate "power".

 

For ©, the main question is, what do smoke bullets do?

 

The Focus Limitation has some options that you can tweak for things like a specific Focus, a Focus anyone can use, and so forth. For an "any weapon" kind of Focus, that's typically done as an OIF: Focus of Opportunity, the idea being that if someone were to knock the generic stick or whatever out of your hand, you can easily grab another one.

 

For a heroic level campaign, there are multiple schools of thought, one of which is that "special" items (usually magical or enchanted items included) cost points where normal ones don't. If the enchanter enchants the weapon with a short term kind of thing (for example, it wears off after a few minutes or hours) this would likely be done by making the Powers (including the Naked Advantages, if applicable) Usable By Others.

[mhd]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Yes, the naked advantage looks exactly like what I was looking for, as does the Focus of Opportunity. I'm still pretty new to the system (and that mostly with the Basic book), so these hints about the features and nomenclature really help a lot, thanks.

 

In the current version, it's fire bullets surrounded by fire. One hit roll, both sources of damage have to overcome armor separately. That sounds like a linked Blast to the RKA of the bullet. I guess if I have Link, I don't apply the focus. But reading the rules, it looks like I could apply the increased loading time of the single-shot guns. (Unless the character wants it to work instantly if she ever gets her hands on guns with a higher ammo capacity)

 

The smoke bullets were just a convenient way to cope with out-of-ammo situations or to increase RoF. Not very efficient compared to real bullets, mostly due to flavor reasons. In GURPS it was 1d6 bludgeoning damage as compared to 2d6 of the "large piercing" of the proper bullets, which translates nicely into normal damage as opposed to killing damage.

[culhwch]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

In the current version, it's fire bullets surrounded by fire. One hit roll, both sources of damage have to overcome armor separately. That sounds like a linked Blast to the RKA of the bullet. I guess if I have Link, I don't apply the focus. But reading the rules, it looks like I could apply the increased loading time of the single-shot guns. (Unless the character wants it to work instantly if she ever gets her hands on guns with a higher ammo capacity)

 

 

I'm designing a ranger for a player who wants to do this with his arrows, and this is how I'm thinking of doing it. I'm not 100% sure Linked is valid with "free" Heroic equipment, but that's how I'd do it.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

In the current version' date=' it's fire bullets surrounded by fire. One hit roll, both sources of damage have to overcome armor separately. That sounds like a linked Blast to the RKA of the bullet. I guess if I have Link, I don't apply the focus. But reading the rules, it looks like I could apply the increased loading time of the single-shot guns. (Unless the character wants it to work instantly if she ever gets her hands on guns with a higher ammo capacity)[/quote']

 

There's actually a much easier way of enhancing the damage of the bullets. Buy the Aid power to Aid an RKA. Add Increased Fade Time (whatever it's called), Extra Time (10 minutes), and I think that's it. If you really want the enemy's armor to count double, add Side Effect (RKA gains the reduced penetration limitation during the Aid). I feel that might be a bit of a hassle and reduce the usefulness of the power to about nothing, but your mileage may vary.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

[TABLE]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]Cost [/TD]

[TD]Power[/TD]

[TD=align: right]END[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]20[/TD]

[TD]Enhance Gun: Multipower, 60-point reserve, (60 Active Points); all slots Extra Time (10 Minutes, -2)[/TD]

[TD][/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]1f[/TD]

[TD]1) Fire Bullets: Aid RKA 4d6, Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per 5 Minutes; +1 1/4) (54 Active Points); Extra Time (10 Minutes, -2), Side Effects (RKA gains the reduced penetration limitation while the Aid lasts; -1/2)[/TD]

[TD]5[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]1f[/TD]

[TD]2) Armor Piercing Bullets: Armor Piercing (+1/4) for up to 45 Active Points of RKA, Usable By Other (+1/4), Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (25 Active Points); Extra Time (10 Minutes, -2)[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD=align: right]2f[/TD]

[TD]3) Smoke Bullets: Blast 4d6, Usable By Other (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Time Limit (5 Minutes; +1) (55 Active Points); Extra Time (10 Minutes, -2)[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

Powers Cost: 24

I may be missing a few details here but I think this is getting close. I get real fuzzy with how Usable By Other really works so maybe someone else can chime in on that.

[mhd]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Hmm, there isn't supposed to be time limit, so I'd remove that, but on the other hand, as the gun is truly a "focus" in the magical sense, there's no requirement for Usable By Other. Also, I think the Aid would probably be more applicable if it really turns the bullets into little fireballs, if it's just surrounded by a "poof" of fire, the combination of normal and killing damage (as well as PD vs. ED) might actually be worth the added trouble. But generally, thanks, that's a pretty good idea for the gun mage's framework.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

No problemo, I hope it helps out. Be aware though, if your player has to roll separately a killing attack vs PD and a normal attack vs ED, they may get very confused, and you might too trying to figure out the damage. If the end result is "increased damage", I'd go for the simplest solution that works. But you're the GM so go with what you think works best!

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

If what you're doing is enchanting another character's Focus, you'll want to consider Usable By Others with the Differing Modifiers rules on 6E1 pp. 359-360. It adds a bit more complexity, but avoids some frequent weirdness with Foci that are built UBO.

[Christopher]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Yes, the naked advantage looks exactly like what I was looking for, as does the Focus of Opportunity. I'm still pretty new to the system (and that mostly with the Basic book), so these hints about the features and nomenclature really help a lot, thanks.

 

In the current version, it's fire bullets surrounded by fire. One hit roll, both sources of damage have to overcome armor separately. That sounds like a linked Blast to the RKA of the bullet. I guess if I have Link, I don't apply the focus. But reading the rules, it looks like I could apply the increased loading time of the single-shot guns. (Unless the character wants it to work instantly if she ever gets her hands on guns with a higher ammo capacity)

 

The smoke bullets were just a convenient way to cope with out-of-ammo situations or to increase RoF. Not very efficient compared to real bullets, mostly due to flavor reasons. In GURPS it was 1d6 bludgeoning damage as compared to 2d6 of the "large piercing" of the proper bullets, which translates nicely into normal damage as opposed to killing damage.

Fire bullets:

APG I has the "Additionll Special Effect" advantage. It allows an attack to go against, PD or ED*, wichever is lower. Likely not as powerfull as having an addional linked attack, but way cheaper and less problems with the endurance cost.

 

*more precisely, you can chooe a specific additional Special Effect so a bullet could be either count as Fire or Bullet Special Effect, wichever is worse for the target after Vulnearbilities and limited defenses.

 

Smoke Bullets:

Sound like buying of the Charges Limitation. That is discussed in the APG I and is very similar to the single power naked advantage. Could use "Reduced Penetration" to simulate that smoke bullets are worse. Or just don't cover the enitre damage of the weapon with the power.

Maybe addionally a Nake "Autofire" Advantage (increased RoF).

 

Nake advantages themself only work for powers/weapons you use. If you want to grant others/the weapons the abiltiy to use them you need some Useable on Others.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Fire bullets:

APG I has the "Additionll Special Effect" advantage. It allows an attack to go against, PD or ED*, wichever is lower. Likely not as powerfull as having an addional linked attack, but way cheaper and less problems with the endurance cost.

 

*more precisely, you can chooe a specific additional Special Effect so a bullet could be either count as Fire or Bullet Special Effect, wichever is worse for the target after Vulnearbilities and limited defenses.

 

This is how I would go. The attack should hit the lower of the defenses. And if a creature is vulnerable to the Fire/heat SFX, then the attack would do extra damage. I would also add +1 Stun multiplier to the attack because burns are exceedingly painful. Imagine a bullet in your stomach. Now imagine a burning bullet in your stomach. Ouch.

 

Smoke Bullets:

Sound like buying of the Charges Limitation. That is discussed in the APG I and is very similar to the single power naked advantage. Could use "Reduced Penetration" to simulate that smoke bullets are worse. Or just don't cover the enitre damage of the weapon with the power.

Maybe addionally a Nake "Autofire" Advantage (increased RoF).

 

Charges as a naked advantage, but also that Cost End is how I would probably handle this. That way it cost END for the character to create new charges from "thin air". Note that the END cost is based on the Active Points of creating the charges, not the Active Points of the weapon the charges are created for when it attacks.

 

Nake advantages themself only work for powers/weapons you use. If you want to grant others/the weapons the abiltiy to use them you need some Useable on Others.

 

I would agree wholeheartedly with this statement.

[mhd]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Like I mentioned above, usable on others isn't really wanted in this case anyway. "Enchanting" the weapon is just preparing it for a specific special effect, but the gun mage is still "casting" the spell for each shot. If the other characters want magical guns, they better buy them

In my little "magical theory" of things I said that the energy for this has to come from somewhere, but as the gunpowder in this world is a product of alchemy, it's coming from the bullet itself, thus no END does make sense. As there's nothing in the barrel for the "smoke bullets", I'd say that this should cost some END, yes. And while they have a higher RoF than normal bullets, that just means that you can fire every action, whereas the normal reloading time for a breech-loader of this type was 5 seconds - although that probably has to be a bit faster for HERO, just like bows.

 

I had the fire aura on the bullet mostly to reduce the power somehow. This way, you'd apply the armor twice, making this basically the equivalent of a magical hollow point. If the added damage is equivalent to the gun damage, Aid with reduced penetration would achieve the same effect, of course.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Like I mentioned above' date=' usable on others isn't really wanted in this case anyway. "Enchanting" the weapon is just preparing it for a specific special effect, but the gun mage is still "casting" the spell for each shot. If the other characters want magical guns, they better buy them [/quote']

 

So the character cannot enchant a gun and give it to someone else to use? If he/she can do that, Useable by Others is the legal build. If only he can use the enhancements on the weapon enchanted, then its only a Focus.

 

In my little "magical theory" of things I said that the energy for this has to come from somewhere, but as the gunpowder in this world is a product of alchemy, it's coming from the bullet itself, thus no END does make sense. As there's nothing in the barrel for the "smoke bullets", I'd say that this should cost some END, yes. And while they have a higher RoF than normal bullets, that just means that you can fire every action, whereas the normal reloading time for a breech-loader of this type was 5 seconds - although that probably has to be a bit faster for HERO, just like bows.

 

A breechloader should probably have a firing time of Full Phase+1 segment. Which means it takes the characters full phase to load and fire the weapon and the action takes so long (several seconds) that it goes off in the segment after the characters initial Phase. The smoke bullets would remove the Full Phase+1 segment Activation limitation on the weapon allowing it to fire on the characters actual Phase as well as allowing the weapon to be used with a Rapid Fire maneuver. You would want to include the cost of the Charges Naked Advantage and the additional increase in removing the weapons Full Phase activation limitation as well, then modify that by the appropriate limitations (Focus etc) as well as the Cost Endurance limitation applied to the Charges. The number of "Smoke Bullets" a single activation of this enhancement can create will be the number of Charges added to the weapon. I would recommend at least 10 charges.

 

However, if you plan to actually change the damage that the smoke bullets cause, then that's simply a new attack power build that uses the Enchanted Gun as a Focus. Pretty simple.

 

I had the fire aura on the bullet mostly to reduce the power somehow. This way, you'd apply the armor twice, making this basically the equivalent of a magical hollow point. If the added damage is equivalent to the gun damage, Aid with reduced penetration would achieve the same effect, of course.

 

So you want a combined attack? One attack that does Physical damage (vs PD) which does the normal damage of the bullet, then another that does Energy damage (vs ED)?

[Christopher]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Let's give it a try with smoke Bullets:

2d6 RKA, IIF("Firearm of Opportunity"; -1/4)

 

The ability to fire smoke Bulliets/cast the "Smoke Bullet" spell is his, but he needs a gun to focus it through. This spells damage, range, acuracy and all other things is not related to the gun used in any way (it does not have the guns limits or is affected by it's OCV/Range Modifeirs).

[mhd]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

So you want a combined attack? One attack that does Physical damage (vs PD) which does the normal damage of the bullet' date=' then another that does Energy damage (vs ED)?[/quote']

 

Yeah, that's the basic idea. Mostly for two reasons, one being the possibility of resistance/immunity against fire, and preventing armor from being to weak if you'd have combined damage. Which is why the gunmage has to choose between a non-augmented armor piercing attack and additional damage that might be worse against armor.

 

On second thought, it's probably better to make the fire damage RKA, too, as this would ease the BODY/STUN calculations.

 

The ability to fire smoke Bulliets/cast the "Smoke Bullet" spell is his' date=' but he needs a gun to focus it through. This spells damage, range, acuracy and all other things is not related to the gun used in any way (it does not have the guns limits or is affected by it's OCV/Range Modifeirs).[/quote']

 

Hmm, that's a good point, what would it cost me if the modifiers of the guns *do* matter? Dont' think the character would want to miss out on his combat skill levels for guns…

[Christopher]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Yeah' date=' that's the basic idea. Mostly for two reasons, one being the possibility of resistance/immunity against fire, and preventing armor from being to weak if you'd have combined damage. Which is why the gunmage has to choose between a non-augmented armor piercing attack and additional damage that might be worse against armor.[/quote']

 

Hmm' date=' that's a good point, what would it cost me if the modifiers of the guns *do* matter? Dont' think the character would want to miss out on his combat skill levels for guns…[/quote']

I fear that could be tricky. The Modifers can be Negative or Positive (Range Skill Level, OCV Modifier, different Range).

Using the Same Skill Levels is propably out of the question with that way, you would have to buy higher level of Skill Level.

 

There might be two other ways:

1. The Limitation Buyoff. Problematic as it has to work for very different Handguns.

 

2. Using a VPP. Just rebuild the weapon (including all CV Modifiers, advantages and limitations) in the VPP using whatever Attack Power and Special Effect you like.

When you are at it, you could also put the Fire Amunitions power into it as well.

[Lucius]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

A Focus is automatically usable by anyone, unless specifically bought as a "personal" Focus only usable by the one character.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usable by Palindromedary

[Christopher]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

A Focus is automatically usable by anyone, unless specifically bought as a "personal" Focus only usable by the one character.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Usable by Palindromedary

I don't quite see what this helps us with the current situation of trying to have OCV/Range Modifiers of the gun and 3 point Skill Levels affect his Shadow Ammunition.

[mhd]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

On the other hand, as this isn't supposed to fully supplant the character's normal attacks/bullets, less accuracy might actually be ok. If not, there's always the option of 5 point CSLs… Or maybe building the "signature" guns as an equal level of CSL for focused non-bullet effects.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

I think the train has derailed...

[Christopher]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

I think the train has derailed...

You statement is the first that doesn't fits at all. Afaik we are right on Track right now.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

I think it's gotten a lot more complicated that it needs to be. Then again, complications do give you more points to work with.

[mhd]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Don't worry, I'll say "uncle" once we reach or surpass the original GURPS level of complexity

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

I should apologize. If I didn't like the complexity of the build, I didn't have to read this thread anymore. I didn't mean to be a troll. Carry on heroes!

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Enhancing weapons

 

Here's a link to an old post from a similar thread that you might find useful. It deals with being able to enchant someone else's weapon in a couple of interesting ways.