Magic Items vs. Exp.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Galadorn

First of all, I think a reasonable assumption is to start with standard Hero Game rules. If you don't want to follow standard Hero Game rules, my comments are not for you.

Where in standard HERO Games rules does it state that NPCs are not built following the same guidelines for PCs? -- which is what you are suggesting.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

Enough theory and philosophy, NPCs aren't made, in practice, following the same rules that PCs do. They start with far more character points then the PCs, typically - period, case closed.

Master villains may have more points than PCs when designed, but this is generally to reflect their long experience or similar. Regardless of how many "Experience Points" the character is built on, they are still built following the same rules as PCs.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

I guess we should throw persuasive language right out of the english language - thanks.

There is a difference between persuasion and confrontation, discussion and argument.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

Secondly, you just argued with me.

No, I was merely pointing out that you were making assumptions and then trying to force those assumptions on others.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

I made it quite clear, and I guess that you didn't read my post throughly, that I myself hadn't decided which way to go. But then the reading ability of the American people is not what is once was.

I read your post very thouroughly, or "throughly" if you prefer. I assure you that my reading abilities are quite skilled and well developed. But thanx for the personal attack!

 

While you state that you havent decided which way to go at the end, the general thrust of your post was to state your false assumption that NPCs are not built like PCs in all campaigns unilaterally, by all other GMs, and that therefore Markdocs post was invalid based solely upon that assumption. For someone that hasnt made up their mind, that post seems pretty close minded to me.

 

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

Second, if you don't like my posts, you can just ignore them.

If you are going to be belligerant and rude, I surely will start to.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

Third, you yourself engaged in arguing with me about my tactics. I thought you said arguing with others is not the way to go? Hmmmmmmmm.

So if someone points out a false assumption to you that qualifies as argument in your book? Good to know.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

Fourthly, my comments where rhetorical.

 

Do you mean rhetorical as in "Language that is elaborate, pretentious, insincere, or intellectually vacuous" or rhetorical as in "Artificial eloquence; fine language or declamation without conviction or earnest feeling" or "Characterized by overelaborate or bombastic rhetoric" or "Used for persuasive effect."?

 

 

Either way, if you'll read my post you'll note that I dont discourage you from relating how you choose to do it, what Im suggesting is that you not assume that your way is the only way or that there is "1 right way" to do Magic Items in the HERO System.

Killer Shrike

However, if thats how you choose to do things, so be it. Youve commented thusly, we are informed, your input is noted; -- thanx!

 

I dont have a problem with how you choose to do it, etc. Im just suggesting that you not filter everyone elses posts based upon assumptions you make and/or the way you choose to do it in your own games.

[Vanguard00]

Originally posted by Galadorn

I would never pay character points for any magic item, as a Player, I just use replaceable foci. I've learned this over the many years I've played Hero.

 

Well, ain't you special. My point here was that if the magic item was part of the background and/or starting character and NOT something that had been previously RPed, then that item would have to accounted for via points.

 

I wouldn't pay a single point for a magic item, but then, that's my own preference. I wouldn't play in a game in which those experience points, I hard earned through roleplaying, where taken away. I don't like Indian-giver GMs.

 

Allow me to clarify before you begin attaching labels (and I'll admit to a certain lack of clarity in my original statement).

 

I don't take anything away from players unless the story allows it. By that I mean that I'm not out to "get" someone, or to specifically design a scenario where they lose an item, or anything of the kind. I believe that normal equipment, supplies, arms and armament, services, what have you, can all be accounted for through RP and basic finances. Therefore, I don't charge character points for normal items. It seems somehow against the grain.

 

If a character begins play with a magic sword, then he must pay for it. It's my way of balancing the beginning of the game. It works for me. If that player loses the magic sword, then he is perfectly capable of reinvesting those points somewhere else (learning new skills along the way, removing a disad through roleplay, whatever). If he is somehow in a position to acquire a NEW magic sword, then he may do so at no additional cost in character points. He can buy it, steal it, make it, pick it up off the ground, whatever--and I won't charge him a single XP.

 

Then I would spend every session to reaqcuire that magic item, spending experience points on spells, leaving the party look for it, until the GM backed down, or killed my character.

 

Well, I could see where a GM would want to kill your character, but all I meant was that a magic item acquired via role play wasn't going to cost the character any points. If they find a magical sword capable of summoning gods, opening dimensional rifts, and protecting the bearer from any harm whatsoever, well good for them. Obviously I as the GM gave it to 'em. Now the item itself might be the focus of other people, but my point is that any item that the character DOESN'T start with can be accounted for in roleplaying. They find it, they keep it until such time as they do something stupid or the campaign simply works against them that time.

 

Problem is, some people don't seem to have a respect for the effort people put into roleplaying a character. I spend hours designing my characters, a GM who killed my character off willy-nilly, or stole his magic items willy-nilly, would find me no longer at his table.

 

I never said anything about killing a character OR stealing an magic item willy nilly. Where do you find these words?

 

You're coming across as very caustic, Galadorn, and while I'm not about to get into a flame war with you, I can say from what little you've shown of your inability to tactfully respond to differing opinions or opposing views--or heck, even if you agree with the person!--I wouldn't want you at my table to begin with. You simply strike me as a poor sport.

 

The question was asked by a third party and I answered him. If you don't like my answers, simply don't reply. They were only offered as options and alternatives, not as a way to get your goat or even incite a reply from you.

 

Geez, man, you suck the fun out of trying to be helpful.

[bjbrown]

I think there is a difference between normal equipment and magical items. The differences are that (1) magical items aren't as available as normal equipment and (2) magical items are better than normal equipment.

 

PCs or NPCs can't just go out and buy the magical items that they want (at least in my game). Magical items are special beyond the realm of normal equipment. It doesn't terribly affect game balance or conception to have a character carry around an arsenal of normal weapons- say every different type of sword available, short sword, broad sword, bastard sword, etc. It greatly challenges game balance and concept if, instead of that arsenal of normal swords, he's carrying around Stormbringer, Excalibur, and the Holy Munchkin Vorpal Sword at the same time. That is so even if, as a matter of Active Points, the mentioned swords are not too far greater than normal swords.

 

The biggest problem of limiting magical item acquisition is that PCs can usually take the items from NPCs that they vanquish. Session after session, the items accumulate. Then the more powerful NPCs must either (a) have magical items appropriate to their points, which just makes the PCs so much more powerful after vanquishing the NPC, or ( the NPC must for some reason have far less magical items than relatively powerful, or less powerful, PCs. There are ways to limit the acquisition of items from NPCs (the item can only be used by evil creatures, it is accidentally destroyed in combat), but these things get old with the players when used too much.

 

What I am considering doing is creating a rule whereby PCs can only carry a total CP worth of magical items limited to maybe one-third of their total character CP. The excess may be stored at a stronghold (if they have one), or donated to someone to gain a favor, or whatever else they want to do. That system will limit the magic that the PCs carry, but they won't have to worry about spending CP for an item that they might not use later on down the line. It may also encourage them to get rid of excess items and receive some value for them, rather than hoarding magic items.

[Agent Escafarc]

Originally posted by bjbrown

What I am considering doing is creating a rule whereby PCs can only carry a total CP worth of magical items limited to maybe one-third of their total character CP. The excess may be stored at a stronghold (if they have one), or donated to someone to gain a favor, or whatever else they want to do. That system will limit the magic that the PCs carry, but they won't have to worry about spending CP for an item that they might not use later on down the line. It may also encourage them to get rid of excess items and receive some value for them, rather than hoarding magic items.

 

Super-Agents had a simular rule called Brownie Points PCs started with a pool of 50 pts worth of equipment and they could later increase this with Xpts.

[Rick]

This also depends on the how common magic weapons are in your game world. If every NPC has one or two items then the PC's will probably end up W/a few themselves.

 

There are ways to reduce this even in monty hall type worlds. Perhaps evil NPC's use evil items: give the PC's reasons not to put those items on their character sheets. Maybe some magical items need a certain skill: if you don't have the skill you can't use the item. Some items may be personal items they only work in the right persons hands: if the item hasn't chosen you, you can't work the item.

 

These will obviously vary from game to game, but there are ways to control these things with out making it hurt in ep's.

 

My prefered way is to make Magic items vary rare and valuable. In my world magic items grow W/their PC, so that the PC doesn't always feel like they have up grade. The sword (or whatever) awakens and grows in power as the PC discovers more about themselves and the blade.

[cutsleeve]

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Vanguard00

I charge characters for any magic items they possess at the time of character creation. If/when that item is used/lost, they either lose the points (and the corresponding amount of disad points, or they become "bankable" points to be used just like XP. They cannot be used to acquire additional items.)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I would never pay character points for any magic item, as a Player, I just use replaceable foci. I've learned this over the many years I've played Hero.

******

This is a personal choice on how you would create your character. Some people would pay character points to have a magical item at the beginning of play.

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't charge CPs for normal items, period.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

I wouldn't pay a single point for a magic item, but then, that's my own preference. I wouldn't play in a game in which those experience points, I hard earned through roleplaying, where taken away. I don't like Indian-giver GMs.

************

Your statement doesnt contradict the statement you quoted. He said he would never have people pay character points for normal items. In general everyone here is of the mind that they would never make a character pay for items acquired in play so you wouldnt loose the xp gained you.

 

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Any items not on the person at time of creation will need to be RPed, either in the finding, the making, the buying, the stealing...whatever. They can keep those items indefinitely unless something occurs in-story to remove it (loss, use, theft, selling it, etc).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Then I would spend every session to reaqcuire that magic item, spending experience points on spells, leaving the party look for it, until the GM backed down, or killed my character.

 

Problem is, some people don't seem to have a respect for the effort people put into roleplaying a character. I spend hours designing my characters, a GM who killed my character off willy-nilly, or stole his magic items willy-nilly, would find me no longer at his table.

***********

Again im confused by this justoposition of quote and reply. What he is saying is that the gaining and loosing of items is a roleplayed event and that an indavidual can keep those items as long as events within the story remove them. How does this contradict the "effort people put into roleplaying a character" it is a natural part of roleplay and is also the natural course of item interactions items are found lost misplaced all the time. Story referance can show this.

 

Conan discovered a very well made sword in a cave in the very first story written about him. He was nearly killed by the reanimated dead king who owned it. It was a substantial item but by the second story he had already lost it. Conan always loses, breaks, or throws away weapons in the stories. Yet he always begins the story with a weapon. One way of reflecting this is GM Option to rule that he always has a sword. Or Conan could just have bought ,with character points, the weapons he always starts with omitting independant to represent the fact that he can always get a new one for free. By killing, stealing, or by luck.

 

I spend hours designing my characters, a GM who killed my character off willy-nilly, or stole his magic items willy-nilly, would find me no longer at his table.

 

Good Gm's dont take things away willy nilly or kill characters willy nilly but having a character die or having his gear stolen happens thats story or thats just happenstance. Items can be taken away and if you feel the need to go chasing after it i would not impede your character in his quest. But if you got killed doing it i wouldnt expect any whining about how i took it away in the first place thats life being an adventurer is hard.

 

Basically all these things break down to personal preferance and thats all. When you buy items with character points and independant you run the risk that it will be taken away thats why it has a -2 limitation. If you dont want an item to be able to be taken away dont buy it with Independant and buy it with straight cp with no focus. Focus just means it cant be permanently taken away but i can be temporarily removed.

Items gained through play are by their nature independant unless the character wishes to buy them without it with CP's. This doesnt mean they cant keep them but it means that they can be taken away or lost during the course of the adventure.

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Galadorn

 

Problem is, some people don't seem to have a respect for the effort people put into roleplaying a character. I spend hours designing my characters, a GM who killed my character off willy-nilly, or stole his magic items willy-nilly, would find me no longer at his table.

 

[/b]

 

I can understand that sentiment but I don't agree with it. I'm not advocating Willy Nilly pc mortality but it should be a possibility, no risk no fun.

 

It is IMHO the GM's job to create high's and Low's for the player/character. The rewards are so much sweeter when the PC have battled hard to achieve them.

 

Lots of players love the drama of the shit hitting the metaphorical fan, dredging through misery and strife to emerge bloodied and ultimately victorious.

 

Someties the Player must trust the GM and see what dramatic ending is in the offing.

 

If my GM took away my "Heroblade" I would expect a reasonable plot device whereby he needed me to be seperated from it and I would in due course be united with it. But not as you say Willy Nilly.

[Markdoc]

I've been GM'ing FH for nigh on 20 years now and NEVER had a campaign implode on me because I gave away unbalanced magical items.

 

As I said - don't give away items you don't want your players to have.

 

And I ran the same game nearly every week for 6 years at college, so I think I have roughish idea of how to handle these things over the longer term.

 

That doesn't mean that players shouldn't get pants-wettingly powerful items from time to time (they like that sort of thing). But I never give away such an item without having a good idea what is going to happen to it.

 

When the inevitable happens and the sword-that-cuts-through-anything goes the way of all Xp occasionally the players have pissed and moaned, but they cheer up soon enough: after all, it's not like they invested their own precious Xp in the things.

 

And that's my point. Loud would be the wailing indeed if the Gm not only takes away the sword-that-cuts-through-anything, but also 30 Xp!

 

As for the idea that NPCs are built using different rules from PCs, that's goes straight against my "rules for GMs". NPCs are built on different points totals, of course. It has honestly never occurred to me that Mung the pot boy at the Inn, and Bludspurt Axfrenzy the Terrible, Scourge of cContinents, should be built on 150 points, but in every game I apply the same rules to both.

 

Still, if you WANT to charge for magic items, it's your game. Likewise, the idea of using an "equipment pool" is viable: I have played in games where we use those (although it encourages a deal of sitting around scheming how much stuff you can cram into your pool, rather than just grabbing a weapon off the wall)

[Alibear]

Originally posted by Rick

My prefered way is to make Magic items vary rare and valuable. In my world magic items grow W/their PC, so that the PC doesn't always feel like they have up grade. The sword (or whatever) awakens and grows in power as the PC discovers more about themselves and the blade.

 

This is exactly what I have done.

 

10 weapons were built by the legendary Articifer Zoltan The Great, called HeroBlades. Each was given to one of General Salador Kin's captains, with the help of these weapons a nation was born. These magical weapons increase in power as the the power of the wielder increases.

 

The main power of the weapon is variable, but the secondary is always the same, it eliminates the NCM disadvantage.

Although the PC does not know this yet as he has not tried to boost his characteristics past 20.

 

 

BTW Same here with the sword awakening, in my campaign, it is now 'welded' to the character that wielded it first in battle after it was discovered.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Alibear

If my GM took away my "Heroblade" I would expect a reasonable plot device whereby he needed me to be seperated from it and I would in due course be united with it. But not as you say Willy Nilly.

 

Absolutely, I agree. I've had experiences in which some players decided they didn't like my paladin characters in AD&D. So three of them would conspire to kill me in every adventure I played in. Where were the good-aligned characters in all this? Nowhere, standing off to the side, ignoring it.

 

The issue is R-E-S-P-E-C-T. Of course there is some risk associated with fantasy roleplaying, we all know that when we sit down at the table. But, as the Hero Games Manual says, something along these lines: "Players don't like it when their characters are captured, the GM should do this rarely, because its loosing in the characters minds."

 

Same thing with killing characters, yes there's risk, but in fantasy fiction when main characters die, by and large, it's a heroic sacrifice - not a bum chance. When they loose their magic items in fantasy fiction, by and large, its a major event. Something to think about...

[Blue Jogger]

In Ars Magica, there are two different types of magic. There are spells, some of which would temporarily enchant items with magical abilities. To make a change permanent, took vis. (Vis is magic in a physical form).

 

And there were magic items. Magic items required vis and were permenent enchantments in items. That item could be lost, stolen or broken. The main use of this was to trade magic for other magic (or as payment to other mages). Magic items had the advantage that anyone could use them.

 

This became a sore point for my character because he would rarely make magic items and instead make spells that were easy to cast.

[Galadorn]

I'm not continuing the argumentation thread, enough silliness. Let's move on. Potatoe and Po-TAT-toe I say. First of all, my points where rhetorical as I said before in my posts. Second of all, nothing wrong with a little debate. If you don't like free speech move to Iran.

 

Take Care

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by bjbrown

What I am considering doing is creating a rule whereby PCs can only carry a total CP worth of magical items limited to maybe one-third of their total character CP. The excess may be stored at a stronghold (if they have one), or donated to someone to gain a favor, or whatever else they want to do. That system will limit the magic that the PCs carry, but they won't have to worry about spending CP for an item that they might not use later on down the line. It may also encourage them to get rid of excess items and receive some value for them, rather than hoarding magic items.

 

Good idea BJ, IMO. SOME kind of standard or guideline, but what is that standard or guideline? That's my whole point. Some people seem to rail and rant against standards. I look at them as helpful, not hurtful. But this points out another issue I don't want to address right now.

 

I think a better idea is to use an active point limitation, but how this standard would be formulated I don't know. Yes, I agree it is a personal preference in some respect. I also think it depends on the storyline and want goals the GM has in mind. But, what I think is inappropriate, is having a 4th level paladin with a +5 holy avenger, as one D&D game I heard of had. Do you think a +5 holy avenger is appropriate? Oh well, whatever floats your boat I guess.

 

Anyway, I'm all for setting a standard or guideline for magic item active point limits. I'm against forcing that standard on anyone, but I'm also for free speech.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Vanguard00

You're coming across as very caustic, Galadorn, and while I'm not about to get into a flame war with you, I can say from what little you've shown of your inability to tactfully respond to differing opinions or opposing views--or heck, even if you agree with the person!--I wouldn't want you at my table to begin with. You simply strike me as a poor sport.

 

Well if you wouldnt want me to play at your table, I would say the feeling is mutual. Tactfully? I was being assertive IMO. But then again I've done research on internet psychology and know that communication is easily misunderstood, when no voice tone is present.

 

Secondly, poor sport? Is being a "good sport" simply going along with what the GM wants to do? In my roleplaying club of 30+ people I was voted best GM three years in a row. O.K., whatever, life goes on...

 

If you don't like my style of communication, no problem, seems we have a personality conflict.

 

Take Care

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

In Ars Magica, there are two different types of magic. There are spells, some of which would temporarily enchant items with magical abilities. To make a change permanent, took vis. (Vis is magic in a physical form).

 

And there were magic items. Magic items required vis and were permenent enchantments in items. That item could be lost, stolen or broken. The main use of this was to trade magic for other magic (or as payment to other mages). Magic items had the advantage that anyone could use them.

 

This became a sore point for my character because he would rarely make magic items and instead make spells that were easy to cast.

 

That's something like me and another poster were talking about. Some kind of magic item pool, with an active point, and maybe actual cost, cap. You can only have magic items up to whatever the respective caps are.

 

And you seem to go along with my view, that I'd rather have spells with replacable foci; easy to cast, never loose them, can't be permanently taken away. In short, theft-proof.

 

But I agree with the majority of posters on this thread, no cost for magic items. But my twist is; if you want to make a magic item, make it a replacable foci, and the game thief fades into the woodwork, never to be seen again.

 

One little trick I used to do is, have a detect in my magic multipower; detect magic, discriminatory, sense, x8 range. Lets see those sticky-finger, stinking thieves get away with my magic items or foci now! LOL.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Alibear

I can understand that sentiment but I don't agree with it. I'm not advocating Willy Nilly pc mortality but it should be a possibility, no risk no fun.

 

It is IMHO the GM's job to create high's and Low's for the player/character. The rewards are so much sweeter when the PC have battled hard to achieve them.

 

I agree, good point.

 

Lots of players love the drama of the shit hitting the metaphorical fan, dredging through misery and strife to emerge bloodied and ultimately victorious.

 

Someties the Player must trust the GM and see what dramatic ending is in the offing.

 

I agree.

 

If my GM took away my "Heroblade" I would expect a reasonable plot device whereby he needed me to be seperated from it and I would in due course be united with it. But not as you say Willy Nilly.

 

Yes sir, good job, I think, IMHO, oh terrific master of logical potency. (BTW this last comment isn't meant for you, it's a comment meant for others. At least the way they want me to talk I think. )