VPPs and Variable SFX

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

That is an interesting observation. Would be a good idea to look at any recent villains to see what the use is as it was there to provide usage after the EC framework was removed in sixth edition. If it is not getting used it is evidence that the EC was indeed an unnecessary framework and used simply as a point saving vehicle...

 

I think all the frameworks are used as point saving vehicles. We don't need a Multipower - we can buy 6 different attacks with Lockout instead. But that's much more expensive than 6 attacks at the same AP level in a Multipower.

 

The EC had all the same issues as Unified Power, plus the need for powers to have similar active points. FireGuy still saw his force field and EB reduced by the Gravity Field that weakened his Flight.

 

As to example characters, the sense I get from the sample characters in the core rules is that they were rapidly translated from 3e. FireBrand had his attacks in a multipower and other powers in an EC, so the 6e version kept his attacks in the multipower and tossed Unified Power on the EC powers, without considering whether the attacks might appropriately be Unified in the new model. Hopefully, the Villain books made use of the new rules structure, rather than just translating 5e characters into 6e.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I think all the frameworks are used as point saving vehicles. We don't need a Multipower - we can buy 6 different attacks with Lockout instead. But that's much more expensive than 6 attacks at the same AP level in a Multipower.

 

I think what was interesting was not that the elemental control could be built more expensively but that, given the opportunity for a cost break that was not formalised in a framework, the limitation is not used.

 

 

Hopefully' date=' the Villain books made use of the new rules structure, rather than just translating 5e characters into 6e.[/quote']

 

And that was indeed what I wanted to see - if more recently designed villains also omitted the use of the limitation.

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Going back to my Graviton example....

What if the target has Flight built with the 'No Gravity Penalty' Advantage as well as Unified?

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Going back to my Graviton example....

What if the target has Flight built with the 'No Gravity Penalty' Advantage as well as Unified?

Then I ask again: What is the effective SFX?

1. Does it uses gravity to nail you to the ground? If so, why are STR, Leaping and Running unaffected? How does it archives it's effect?

Or

2. Does it use finely tuned, specially adapted gravity effects (like messing up with your balance in flight and flight only)?

 

If you can't answer 1, then you propably misbuilt/misdefined the power.

If two is the answer, then however it does affect your fight propably also effects somehow your other unified powers.

 

You can apply "Gravity" SFX for TK, Blast, STR and a dozen other Power builts. In what they differ is HOW you apply gravity.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Hmmm. This is, on the face of it, either a very simple or a very complex issue.

 

It is simple because the rules are quite explicit. You choose the mechanic and live with it. However, the downside of that is that it can lead to inconsistency in play that ruins the 'feel' of a character.

 

It is complex because you want to make the game feel 'real' and thus are adjusting on the fly. The downside of this being that you need a complicated mix of mechanics that reflect the costs of how the GM might adjust the system to reflect game reality in the future.

 

Personally I think that the purpose of unified power is to reflect a pool of energy that can be used in a variety of ways. Even if the SFX of the powers are unrelated pulling at one aspect of that power means that it affects everything sourced from there.

 

That means that MagicMan decides that his powers are linked because they draw from a magical pool. When he is using his magical fire and someone seeks to drain that power then the GM looks and decides that this is a magical power with fire SFX, not a fire power. As such, the power is not drained but, using the long standing bit on SFX being able to give minor bonuses or penalties, would dampen the effectiveness of the magical fire - telling the person draining it that this in not normal fire - it is magic and that is hampering the effectiveness of the power they chose.

 

So to me - it is simple - give a bit and fall back on the rules...

 

 

Doc

 

There is nothing to stop someone taking 'Unified Power' at -0 and saying that it only acts as a unified power when it makes sfx sense, and agreeing what makes sense in advance or by negotiation with the GM in-game. My view is that if you take a cost break (and -1/4 is the lowest you can take) then you have to live with the mechanics of your decision.

 

Harsh, but fair.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Going back to my Graviton example....

What if the target has Flight built with the 'No Gravity Penalty' Advantage as well as Unified?

 

Good question, and there are a number of answers.

 

1. SFX trumps mechanics: if flight is unaffected by gravity then it is unaffected by gravity sfx adjustment powers.

2. All powers assume that you have a -0 limitation: apply SFX to make this make sense, then proceed as 1. above.

3. Mechanics rule: you get adjusted anyway as the advantage does not affect adjustment powers as written. You need to build the power to do what you want it to, or change it when an unexpected situation comes up.

4. SFX rule, but only to the extent that mechanics allow. If something comes up that you had not anticipated, then you need to re-imagine the SFX so they do make sense - you still get what you paid for and have to work out why it did not work as you may have expected.

 

There is a lot of overlap there, and I imagine most people go with 2.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

There is nothing to stop someone taking 'Unified Power' at -0 and saying that it only acts as a unified power when it makes sfx sense, and agreeing what makes sense in advance or by negotiation with the GM in-game. My view is that if you take a cost break (and -1/4 is the lowest you can take) then you have to live with the mechanics of your decision.

 

Harsh, but fair.

 

If you take the unified power at -0, what are the advantages that offset the problems you get with relevant SFX??

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

If you take the unified power at -0' date=' what are the advantages that offset the problems you get with relevant SFX??[/quote']

There are none.

It's just such a minor inconvenience, that it is not worth any Limitation Value.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

What Christopher said; you get the power you want to build. If you are doing it for verisimilitude, you will be happy. If you are shaving points, you will not. I am not a fan of SFX simply trumping mechanics because it 'makes sense'. Mechanics are what happens, SFX is what explains it.

 

This is not necessarily a problem on a one off basis, but if you make a habit of it it can lead to arguments about what should or should not affect what and people trying to be cunning about their SFX. Ultimately it is a question of whether you trust the GM not to take advantage.

 

Sucker!

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

There are none.

It's just such a minor inconvenience, that it is not worth any Limitation Value.

 

Really? I would have said that losing two powers for the price of one was never a minor inconvenience. I do not think that I would ever, as a player, accept a -0 limitation that did not in some way provide a minor advantage to counter the minor inconvenience...

 

Maybe that is just me.

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Well, perhaps if they were considered one power and you were not getting a cost break, I might also consider them one power for positive adjustment too. Also, the point about trusting the GM: if you have not taken a cost break, but are doing it for flavour, I would not expect it to come up much.

 

In fact, how about Hero's first +0 Modifier: SFX Linked. The power is considered part of the related power for the purposes of adjustment powers, and any adjustment power has to be distributed equally amongst the SFX Linked powers. This ONLY applies when it is logical in terms of the SFX of the SFX Linked powers.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Really? I would have said that losing two powers for the price of one was never a minor inconvenience. I do not think that I would ever' date=' as a player, accept a -0 limitation that did not in some way provide a minor advantage to counter the minor inconvenience...[/quote']

A -0 can servere many roles:

I can be a flavor thing.

It can help with the overall balance (can't use certain dangerous combinations)

And it gives the GM a tool to disable your powers if the story needs it.

 

It can be either of this, but with one advantage over a Limitation with a Value:

You do not request it to become a part of the story.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Good question, and there are a number of answers.

 

1. SFX trumps mechanics: if flight is unaffected by gravity then it is unaffected by gravity sfx adjustment powers.

2. All powers assume that you have a -0 limitation: apply SFX to make this make sense, then proceed as 1. above.

3. Mechanics rule: you get adjusted anyway as the advantage does not affect adjustment powers as written. You need to build the power to do what you want it to, or change it when an unexpected situation comes up.

4. SFX rule, but only to the extent that mechanics allow. If something comes up that you had not anticipated, then you need to re-imagine the SFX so they do make sense - you still get what you paid for and have to work out why it did not work as you may have expected.

 

There is a lot of overlap there, and I imagine most people go with 2.

 

I'm curious why you and others continue to assume that a 'gravity' based attack vs. Flight is automatically best modeled by the Drain Power?

 

I know it sounds like I'm focusing on this particular sfx for some special reason but I'm not. I'm pretty sure I could come up with another example where Drain vs. Power-X seems like the obvious choice when other Powers might be as or more appropriate when special effects of the base ability are taken into consideration. That's the main point of the example: to shine a light on the other side of the equation when dealing with powers with Unified.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I'm curious why you and others continue to assume that a 'gravity' based attack vs. Flight is automatically best modeled by the Drain Power?

Actually: No. I asumed you are talking about Gravity Based Drain Flight.

In part because we are discussing Unified here, wich only is worht discussing in combination with Negatie Adjustment Powers.

 

The best things I can think of about "constant, Gravity based attack that stops flight" is Telekinesis. And for that one the advantages on the Flight are irrelevant, as the power works on your Body as whole and the normal rules for esscaping a grab apply.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I'm curious why you and others continue to assume that a 'gravity' based attack vs. Flight is automatically best modeled by the Drain Power?

 

I know it sounds like I'm focusing on this particular sfx for some special reason but I'm not. I'm pretty sure I could come up with another example where Drain vs. Power-X seems like the obvious choice when other Powers might be as or more appropriate when special effects of the base ability are taken into consideration. That's the main point of the example: to shine a light on the other side of the equation when dealing with powers with Unified.

 

I know you mentioned Dispel earlier in the thread, but that is all or nothing and I can certainly see a gravity field making it harder (and slower) to fly but not stopping the flight entirely. If you want to reduce but not necessarily negate another power, Drain is the very thing.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I know you mentioned Dispel earlier in the thread' date=' but that is all or nothing and I can certainly see a gravity field making it harder (and slower) to fly but not stopping the flight entirely. If you want to reduce but not necessarily negate another power, Drain is the very thing.[/quote']

 

I guess I'm splitting hairs but it sure seems like there should be a tangible difference between a sfx contest of abilities (which is what increased gravity vs. flight seems like) and a sfx drain where one ability is specifically targeting another ability (like a power suppressor collar tuned to counter-act graviton based flight). A one mechanic-fits-all approach just doesn't feel right.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

A one mechanic-fits-all approach just doesn't feel right.

Hero is all about "one mechanic fit's all". Blast can go against energy, physical, mental, power, flash or any other defense.

The blast can stand for Knockout gas, a thrown object (that does not adds Strenght), a literal blast, a sleep spell. Those are very different ways to affect the target, but they all use one mechanic - Stun Damage.

 

I think what you are hung up upon is that you only defined the SFX and Effect (Gravity based Drain Flight), but not how it archives that effect.

 

When you see "Drain power or Characteristic X" you automatically think of specific way, usually the most blunt way possible. Chemical Drain STR propably works by weakening the muscles - but it can't affect a magical amulet of STR, because there the movement comes from magic. Or what about the tacticle telekinesis? (STR bought seperate from base STR). And how would that hinder you from lifting yourself with gravity based flight?

 

The answers are:

It does work against both, because the balance demands it.

It also works against both, because that is how it often works in the source material.

It also works, because superhuman physics make no sense at all.

But most of all it does work, because it is NOT the blunt way.

 

A Drain STR is a finely tuned tool, that affects the power in a very specific way. It's not weakening the muscles (or not exclusively), it might affect the nervous system. And once you affect the nervous systems ability to move the muscles, why could it not affect your Controll over Gravity based flight, your Tacticle Telekinesis ability and of course (since there is no signal going to your muscles) it does affect the magic STR amulet.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I guess I'm splitting hairs but it sure seems like there should be a tangible difference between a sfx contest of abilities (which is what increased gravity vs. flight seems like) and a sfx drain where one ability is specifically targeting another ability (like a power suppressor collar tuned to counter-act graviton based flight). A one mechanic-fits-all approach just doesn't feel right.

 

There are other ways to do it - this being Hero - notably Change Environment, if you want to reduce but not necessarily stop a power. The problem here is not so much with Drain though as with 'Unified Power'. It is that modifier which seems to be causing the issues, or rather the use of that modifier to link these powers.

 

The character could be built with a Physical Complication or Susceptibility rather than using the modifier, and get the desired result.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Really? I would have said that losing two powers for the price of one was never a minor inconvenience. I do not think that I would ever' date=' as a player, accept a -0 limitation that did not in some way provide a minor advantage to counter the minor inconvenience...[/quote']

 

While I concur that this is limiting, I throw out the reverse question. Unified power is a -1/4 limitation that mechanically means every time any of these powers are drained, they are all drained. The proposal is that this should apply only where the SFX are relevant. What is the offsetting drawback you propose that makes this still worth -1/4?

 

Perhaps the answer is to mechanically take the points saved from Unified Power and apply the "limitation" 'only when justified by SFX'. Let's assume that's half of the drains/negative adjustment powers you will run across (setting this value will definitely be the hard part). So, if Unified Power would reduce the cost of your 60 point Blast to 48, you pay 48 for the Blast. You then pay 6 points for 'Unified power limitation does not apply when SFX suggest it should not' reducing the incidence of that limitation. You didn't save many points, but the drawback will be pretty rare. Seems fair.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

heh - a limited limitation! I think I may have done this in the past.

 

I reckon I would have been willing to take -0 if I could see some minor advantages to it. The build you propose would be acceptable in that I would be accepting detriment that is offset by being able to purchase the 2 levels with dodge I will need when my powers disappear.

 

Doc

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

If Power A is being affected by a loss of Power B due to the presence of Unified, and logic dictates that Power A probably wouldn't be lost because of SFX considerations - you probably didn't actually want Unified to begin with. It's probably closer to Linked, or a variation of Linked in some way.

 

You should only be adding Unified is they are in fact connected in such a way that losing one, not matter how it's lost, also causes the other to be lost.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

So let's go back to the prototype example of the Limitation formerly known as Elemental Control: The Human Torch

 

How should his abilities be modeled in HERO?

 

He probably needs some type of "Body of Flame" ability built as a 'Damage Shield' with a Limitation that it needs to be able to 'burn' (needs oxygen, not underwater, etc.)

Most of his other abilities are Linked to this. (he's been shown to just light up an arm to use a Blast/RKA which suggests a naked buyoff of the Linked)

 

Do his abilities still also qualify for Unified?

If not. WHAT character's would?

 

Unified IS a sfx based Limitation because it's just a new form of Elemental Control (a sfx based Framework).

 

Every argument put forth against it should be equally valid vs. EC's.

I contend that if we were to take a magnifying glass to every published character built with EC or Unified we would be hard pressed to find a character that passes the test arguments put forth in this thread.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

ECs originally were supposed to be very tightly linked thematically, all based off of the same SFX specifically or something similar where the source was the same.

 

In practice, I rarely saw ECs that were done this way.

 

"I must have my fire aura one to fly" is not the same as "my Flight is based on Fire SFX" in the strictest sense of elemental control of fire. If your flight is Fire Based somehow then losing that flight should reduce the rest of your fire based abilities, no matter how that flight was lost.

 

Otherwise you just had Flight Linked to a Fire Aura EC, not actually in the EC itself. Or, in 6E, not part of the Unified aspect, but the fire is still required to fly. Lose fire, lose flight. Lose flight, don't lose fire. That's not Unified or an EC, that's Linked in some form.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

So let's go back to the prototype example of the Limitation formerly known as Elemental Control: The Human Torch

 

How should his abilities be modeled in HERO?

Just about like "Firebrand" (6E1 18) or "The human Flambeu" example (6E1 395). But asking N people how to built character X, you will get N answers so thsi question will lead us nowhere.

 

Unified might have been based of EC and EC might have been based on the Idea of Common SFX.

The same way we humans are based on apes, yet few people say we should live in trees.

 

Afaik Hero quite often started with a Power/Rulesconcept that was heavily based on a specific Special Effect, then wandered towards the more generic, SFX neutral Rules Concept. Barrier was based on Force Wall and Entangles Barrier Option. Resistant Protection was based on Armor. Blast on Energy Blasts (yes 5E still had the SFX in the name).

 

Unified by raw is:

"This Limitation [...] represents the fact that the “unified” powers are all aspects or facets of one over-arching “meta-power.” That makes them particularly vulnerable to negative Adjustment Powers, such as Drain and Suppress. If a negative Adjustment Power affects any of the powers in a Unified Power suite, it affects all of them in the same amount."

Unified by Raw is "Vulnerability to Drain" in a different Fashion. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

It seems like the single biggest disadvantage to EC's in the early days was that someone who could beat that specific SFX toasted the character. If you were highly resistant to flame, Torch had a tough time damaging you. Torch did poorly underwater, not due to mechanics but due to SFX. It seems like a "role playing" bonus - designing a character with a tight theme rather than a hodepodge of random powers.

 

EC changed a lot over the editions, and for a long time had no real mechanical disadvantage - it was more limited by the math.