VPPs and Variable SFX

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

....

EC changed a lot over the editions, and for a long time had no real mechanical disadvantage - it was more limited by the math.

 

However, the primary mechanic that was ported into Unified (drain one, drain all) was always there from the earliest descriptions of EC.

Why is this particular mechanic just now getting so much scrutiny? Was EC just so bad in so many other ways that no one bothered to dig that deep before?

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I think it was mostly ignored before because it was Framework, with a lot of other rules that needed to be adhered to as well that the "SFX consideration" was almost just considered "justified" for some reason or another... and possibly no one wanted to do the math mid combat and just didn't bother with Adjusting them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

However' date=' the primary mechanic that was ported into Unified (drain one, drain all) was [u']always[/u] there from the earliest descriptions of EC.

Why is this particular mechanic just now getting so much scrutiny? Was EC just so bad in so many other ways that no one bothered to dig that deep before?

 

Do you have a cite on that? I don't remember any such mechanic in 2e or 3e (1e had "characteristic drain", so it could not have been the case in 1e).

[Wolfgar Lyles]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I've never been a fan of Adjustment powers that just affect one Power anyway. I can never really seem to reconcile what they are supposed to be modeling.

 

As it's currently written I can't see how Unified would fit anything.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I've never been a fan of Adjustment powers that just affect one Power anyway. I can never really seem to reconcile what they are supposed to be modeling.

 

As it's currently written I can't see how Unified would fit anything.

Let's take an example for a Powerset I have been thinkign about:

A Sword that can chanel a sort of "anti-life" energy. It can easily kill (HKA) or incapacitate an enemy (HTH). But with better controll, there comes more ability to attack:

It can disrupt your mutant ability to controll Flames (by attacking your brain or "Flame Cells"), it can weaken your wings (by attacking the muscles) and it can disrupt you ability to change reality so that gravity does apply to you once more.

 

That is what single Power Drain Means for me:

An attack that can be adapted to specifically attack any special effect of one power (instead of affecting multiple powers of one special effect).

 

Why can't the character not just affect STR you might ask. "Because it is different. I cannot keep my powers from seriously harming my target" Also because the Player forgot that Drain STR can be more effective than Drain Flight anyway (because anyone but Bricks have low STR).

[Wolfgar Lyles]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

It can disrupt your mutant ability to control Flames (by attacking your brain or "Flame Cells"), it can weaken your wings (by attacking the muscles) and it can disrupt you ability to change reality so that gravity does apply to you once more.

And yet despite this versatility it can't disrupt my fire breath or weaken my claws or disrupt my ability to change reality in other ways, even though those should all rely on similar mechanisms for such a broad definition as anti-life energy, and at the same time mechanically the power would still affect things that didn't have life to affect unless otherwise limited-it could still short out my jetpack or my Boots of Flying. I just have a hard time coming up with a reason for power to be both so broad and so restricted simultaneously.

 

I don't mean to be pill but I just don't see it.

 

(Now don't get me wrong, I do see the reasoning for setting up Adjustment Powers as affecting a single power at base-that's to give a direct apples to apples comparison with other powers character points wise. So I'm not debating the merits of that by a long shot. I'm just not sure I can leave it at just that for most builds.)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Wolfgar

 

I think that this highlights one of the main burdens that HERO places on its GMs. The system does not restrict what can be built or the effects that can be put together because it is supposed to be open to replicate anything. As such, consistency is something that a GM has to add to his campaign.

 

So certain effects may be done in certain ways and the GM has to ask the right questions when builds are sent to him for approval to ensure that the system effects written down match the game effects that result. If the power, as described by a player, could have broader effects then it is for the player to justify the broader effects or to limit the power.

 

Drain flight may be a power for the scion of an air god. This scion may, at any time, remove permission to fly in Air God's sky. Such a broad magical ability may impact over a wide range of SFX that lead to flight and the best way to do that is to tackle the underlying game effect.

 

However, it all comes down to the build on the paper as to whether it makes sense in the context of the character presented.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

And yet despite this versatility it can't disrupt my fire breath or weaken my claws or disrupt my ability to change reality in other ways' date=' even though those should all rely on similar mechanisms for such a broad definition as anti-life energy, and at the same time mechanically the power would still affect things that didn't have life to affect unless otherwise limited-it could still short out my jetpack or my [i']Boots of Flying[/i].

Megasentence there.

To the first part (can't affect other powers with simialr special effects):

It can't if you don't Unifiy them and I don't bought Expanded Effect. If either is true, it can.

In the first case because you wanted it to work that way (by applying unified wich gave you a cost break). In the second case because I wanted it so and paid the price for it (higher AP or lesser Effect).

 

About the not affectign jetpacks:

That of course must be doen with a limitation. However it is a limitation ALL "Antilife Energy" Powers share. The KA as well as the CE, the Dispel the Invisbility or the Drain.

 

I just have a hard time coming up with a reason for power to be both so broad and so restricted simultaneously.

Actually this limitation towards "anti life" was only a game balance-story telling reason. There 1-2 other powers: Anti-technology and "Anti specialness" (magic, the force and the entire rest not covered by the other two). Once the character aquires all three, he can affect any power that isn't inherent and any being - limited only by how much energy (AP, Character Points, Endurance) he can muster.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I knew there was an example for Drain vs Flight in the Source material:

Teen Titans Animated series, Epsiode 61/S5E9 "Revved up" has the two fliers grounded by "Some kind of neutralizer beam". Reference:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toYpiL4-8-I

 

They didn't loose other powers. And in tipical super-science fashion, the effect vanished once the source (Daddy Ding Dongs Car) got destroyed.

[ghost-angel]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Wolfgar

 

I think that this highlights one of the main burdens that HERO places on its GMs. The system does not restrict what can be built or the effects that can be put together because it is supposed to be open to replicate anything. As such, consistency is something that a GM has to add to his campaign.

 

This is the key to gaming with Hero. I must spread rep. dang.

[Wolfgar Lyles]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

To the first part (can't affect other powers with similar special effects):

It can't if you don't Unify them and I don't bought Expanded Effect. If either is true, it can.

In the first case because you wanted it to work that way (by applying unified which gave you a cost break). In the second case because I wanted it so and paid the price for it (higher AP or lesser Effect).

 

About the not affecting jetpacks:

That of course must be done with a limitation. However it is a limitation ALL "Antilife Energy" Powers share. The KA as well as the CE, the Dispel the Invisbility or the Drain.

 

Which comes back to my point. The unmodified Adjustment to Powers rarely seems to make any sense on it's own until it's been modified to adapt for special effects.

 

Drain flight may be a power for the scion of an air god. This scion may, at any time, remove permission to fly in Air God's sky. Such a broad magical ability may impact over a wide range of SFX that lead to flight and the best way to do that is to tackle the underlying game effect.

 

This is a really good example though.

 

I think that this highlights one of the main burdens that HERO places on its GMs. The system does not restrict what can be built or the effects that can be put together because it is supposed to be open to replicate anything. As such, consistency is something that a GM has to add to his campaign.

 

In some ways it's a burden, but it's a burden to be taken with some joy, I think. Part of the fun, really.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Which comes back to my point. The unmodified Adjustment to Powers rarely seems to make any sense on it's own until it's been modified to adapt for special effects.

Single Power Drain will be used in two situations:

Heroic games, where there is only one SFX for most things or there will be so few SFX's that limiting it to one SFX is a good idea/recomended anyway.

Superherioc games, where physics and world rules hardly to never make sense. But they still have to be consistent.

 

In some ways it's a burden' date=' but it's a burden to be taken with some joy, I think. Part of the fun, really. [/quote']

Indeed. I rather have that burden, then being unable do built something in a somewhat balanced fashion.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Been away from my books for a few days so I haven't been able to research a previous post question by Hugh yet...

 

In the mean time, I had a thought about Iron Man and the different ways to model his abilities in HERO.

The 2 most common approaches are:

 

1. Build the everything from the 'armor' with OIF @ (-1/2). With this method there is little reason to also use Unified as the focus rules already have a 'drain-one/drain-all' aspect to them when it comes to the focus taking BODY damage.
   
2. The alternative is building everything from the 'armor' with OIAID + some (or all) of its abilities with Unified as well which total up to (-1/2) worth of Limitations (just like OIF).
   

 

That's some amazing symmetry that might be worth thinking about.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Build the everything from the 'armor' with OIF @ (-1/2). With this method there is little reason to also use Unified as the focus rules already have a 'drain-one/drain-all' aspect to them when it comes to the focus taking BODY damage.

What do you mean by that? Every time the Focus takes body, only the power with the least Active Points vanishes.

You need to do body after defenses equal to it's total defenses to destroy the entire focus in one hit.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

I knew there was an example for Drain vs Flight in the Source material:

Teen Titans Animated series, Epsiode 61/S5E9 "Revved up" has the two fliers grounded by "Some kind of neutralizer beam". Reference:

 

They didn't loose other powers. And in tipical super-science fashion, the effect vanished once the source (Daddy Ding Dongs Car) got destroyed.

 

...well that is Reverso-World

 

I think that is one of two things, either:

1. the author thought of a good reason why it could affect flight with different SFX and had too much respect for the audience to spell it out, or

2. The author did it because it fit the story (like Starfire NOT blowing out DDD's tyres with an energy blast) and had no respect for the audience at all, assuming they would not even notice.

 

Said it before and I'll say it again: we are SO much more consistent and honest than the source material we emulate.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Hyper-man asked about The Human Torch and how to build it a few pages back: the thing is that I would not have any problems Unifying all 'fire projection' powers, but 'flight by fire' is another matter. Damaging something by burning it has real-world parallels. Flying by being on fire does not. Sure fire is lighter than air (and I'm never really sure if Torch actually turns to flame or is just covered in it - the latter, I think) but if you set someone on fire* then they do not suddenly take off. No matter how much fuel you use. I've tried.

 

The reason there is a disconnect therefore is because 'being on fire' does not logically give you the ability to fly, and if there is not a logical connection then that explains why logic fails with the 'drain scenario'. So, I'd suggest Torch could still use 'fire' as his flight SFX, but should not unify flight with his damaging fire powers.

 

 

 

 

*Just need to share a favourite aphorism: Give a man a fire and he will be warm for a night, but set a man on fire and he will be warm for the rest of his life.

[Sean Waters]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

What do you mean by that? Every time the Focus takes body, only the power with the least Active Points vanishes.

You need to do body after defenses equal to it's total defenses to destroy the entire focus in one hit.

 

 

The rule is the one with the most active points, or a random one (GM choice) to stop you stacking lots of tiny powers in the focus to make it hard to break. You can only destroy one power per hit and you can only destroy the entire focus when you have destroyed all the powers. 6.1.379

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Hyper-man asked about The Human Torch and how to build it a few pages back: the thing is that I would not have any problems Unifying all 'fire projection' powers, but 'flight by fire' is another matter. Damaging something by burning it has real-world parallels. Flying by being on fire does not. Sure fire is lighter than air (and I'm never really sure if Torch actually turns to flame or is just covered in it - the latter, I think) but if you set someone on fire* then they do not suddenly take off. No matter how much fuel you use. I've tried.

 

The reason there is a disconnect therefore is because 'being on fire' does not logically give you the ability to fly, and if there is not a logical connection then that explains why logic fails with the 'drain scenario'. So, I'd suggest Torch could still use 'fire' as his flight SFX, but should not unify flight with his damaging fire powers.

 

However, applying these logical disconnects to the comics will eliminate much of the source material. I'm pretty sure throwing something really hard and not letting go doesn't let you fly either. The fact nothing of human size can naturally fly leads me to believe that's a tough sell logically, and we don't have single person flight units either. Boot jets? Seriously? Don't you need to change where your feet point to change direction?

 

And let's not get started on all the bizarre SFX for force fields - being on fire reduces the damage you take?

 

Oh, and exposure to large amounts of radiation, ingestion of/dousing with random chemical compounds, etc. don't generally result in superpowers

 

The flip side of your comments, though, is that it's the player's fault for not only taking Unified Power on his fire powers, but for buying powers that are not logically simulated by "being on fire" with the "on fire" SFX.

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

...well that is Reverso-World

 

I think that is one of two things, either:

1. the author thought of a good reason why it could affect flight with different SFX and had too much respect for the audience to spell it out, or

2. The author did it because it fit the story (like Starfire NOT blowing out DDD's tyres with an energy blast) and had no respect for the audience at all, assuming they would not even notice.

Cyborg did that a few minutes later. DDD got better.

 

Damaging something by burning it has real-world parallels. Flying by being on fire does not. Sure fire is lighter than air (and I'm never really sure if Torch actually turns to flame or is just covered in it - the latter' date=' I think) but if you set someone on fire* then they do not suddenly take off. No matter how much fuel you use. I've tried.[/quote']

Then how do rockets fly? I always thought "directed fire".

 

So HT's special effect isn't "being on fire". It's controlled/shaped fire projection. Project fire downwards, aquire speed. Project fire towarsd enemy - burn him.

Sure he is often seen hovering in a way that would be impossible or using non-lethal fire, but he is a superhero. Impossible and unrealistic is basically part of the genre.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Then how do rockets fly? I always thought "directed fire".

 

You know. When talking superheroes, pointing to the real world is usually the wrong way to work anything out...

 

Rockets fly by throwing mass in one direction (not fire) to propel the rocket in the opposite direction. Rockets are a brute force thing. The fire is only the effect you get from air being superheated in the process. What is important is that the rocket is ejecting mass (becoming lighter) the longer the thrust continues - Human Torch does not lose mass in that way.

 

Flying through being lighter than air is not contrary to real world physics but if I limited myself to real world physics then very few of my character concepts would ever become characters...

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

You know. When talking superheroes, pointing to the real world is usually the wrong way to work anything out...

 

Rockets fly by throwing mass in one direction (not fire) to propel the rocket in the opposite direction. Rockets are a brute force thing. The fire is only the effect you get from air being superheated in the process. What is important is that the rocket is ejecting mass (becoming lighter) the longer the thrust continues - Human Torch does not lose mass in that way.

But jet engines throw a lot more mass away then they have as well. They just take air to have something to throw. HT can certainly do the same. That also explains why his fire does not works without air - the heat is still there, but he has nothing to heat up.

 

And that superheroes violate the laws of entropy, mass/energy conversion or thermodynamics is so common, it does not even rasises an eyebrow.

As long as at least some part follows real world logic, superlogic can be based on real world science. If not, NO superhero would make sense. Not even Batman or Daredevil.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

But jet engines throw a lot more mass away then they have as well. They just take air to have something to throw. HT can certainly do the same. That also explains why his fire does not works without air - the heat is still there' date=' but he has nothing to heat up.[/quote']

 

Not sure the authors thought through that as diligently as we might do. But yes, the difference between a jet engine and a rocket engine is the jet engines need for an oxygen containing atmosphere. Human Torch is not consistent as the physics would suggest that he needs only air as mass to project but in writing it is lack of oxygen that causes him problems. I would also guess that you would not want to be in the same room as HT as he would consume the available O2 pretty rapidly!

 

I'm gald we turn a blind eye to science when playing superheroes!

 

 

Doc

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

The rule is the one with the most active points' date=' or a random one (GM choice) to stop you stacking lots of tiny powers in the focus to make it hard to break. You can only destroy one power per hit and you can only destroy the entire focus when you have destroyed all the powers. 6.1.379[/quote']

 

Am I misremembering, or is there a recommendation somewhere that for armor and the like the last power to go should be the basic Resistant Protection (or however its protective effect is modeled) rather than the lowest Active Point power?

[Christopher]

Re: VPPs and Variable SFX

 

Am I misremembering' date=' or is there a recommendation somewhere that for armor and the like the last power to go should be the basic Resistant Protection (or however its protective effect is modeled) rather than the lowest Active Point power?[/quote']

It's the rule that powers that provide defenses (especially PD/ED) go last.