Knockout Gas

[tcabril]

I just want to make sure I am understanding this - lets say I have a character that has a piece of equipment that has Knockout Gas (could be a special arrow or thrown star with a compress gas capsule or whatever) - but for simplicity sake I will just use the Knockout Gas Grenade from 6E1 page 326.

 

KNOCKOUT GAS GRENADE: Blast 6d6, Area of Effect (12m radius; +3/4), NND (defense is Life Support [self-Contained Breathing] or holding one's breath; +1) (82 Active Points); OAF (-1), 4 Charges (-1). Total Cost: 27 Points.

 

Building it I understand.

 

My question is what happens when it goes off:

Does it automatically put those in the radius to sleep if they don't meet the NND critieria or do you still roll the 6d6 for the blast and reduce the targets' STUN?

 

I have read and re-read BLAST, and AVAD and KNOCKOUT but for some reason I can't make the full understanding. The AVAD advantage states that regardless it only does STUN damage.

 

What am I missing?

 

Todd

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

There is no specific "Sleep" effect in Hero. If you want to simulate one, you either do Stun Damage or Drain Stun so the target get's "Knocked Out" by the Damage Rules.

 

What this gas is good at is doing Stun. If you have the defense when it goes off, you take no damage (the gas has dispersed after it is rolled). If you don't have the defense, you take 6d6 Stun (NND/AVAD does not do Body normally), that ignore all your other defenses (ED, PD, Mental Defense- everything). There is a good chance to get your target Stunned: 21 average Stun damage, 36 maximum Stun Damage.

Against foes with little Stun, it might literally put them to sleep. Against msot others, it makes the a much easier target.

[tcabril]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Cool thanks!

That is what I was hoping!

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

I'd probably make it a continuing effect within the radius myself. Lasting ashort time and disrupted by winds etc.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

The thing is that you have the situation where someone that is very resistant to being knocked out in combat is also very resilient against the sleep gas. Those things may often go hand in hand but sometimes they do not. You also have the situation where, if someone does not go to sleep that they can be knocked out more easily. Again, that may fit the concept in some cases and not in others. The final point is that if the gas knocks someone out by taking them to -3 STUN they will only be asleep about three or four seconds and then will wake up (gain positive STUN).

 

I think that I might be looking at putting in an all or nothing type effect with continuing effects. I might consider STUN suppress continuous uncontrolled. That would see someone either go down or not and would then keep them down for a specified period of time. The suppress might last the amount of time fed in through END or could be bought to 0 END and given a time period that could be disrupted by someone vigorously shaking the victim to wake them up.

 

There are always a number of ways to do things and you need to think carefully about what effects you want to achieve.

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

...something like this?

Sleep Gas Grenades (65 active, 24 real): Blast 4d6, Constant (+1/2), Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +3/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; LS: Gas, Holding Breath; +1); OAF (-1), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/2), Limited Range (Throwing distance only; -1/4)

 

That way the gas hangs around for a turn and each phase someone is in it (and when the attack first hits) they take 4d6 Stun damage, so it is not as quick as the 'standard' gas grenade, but it can do more stun over time.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

The thing is that you have the situation where someone that is very resistant to being knocked out in combat is also very resilient against the sleep gas. Those things may often go hand in hand but sometimes they do not. You also have the situation where' date=' if someone does not go to sleep that they can be knocked out more easily. Again, that may fit the concept in some cases and not in others. The final point is that if the gas knocks someone out by taking them to -3 STUN they will only be asleep about three or four seconds and then will wake up (gain positive STUN).[/quote']

According to APG II 43 it is possible to define two defenses against AVAD. This a -1/4 Value when either works and the attacker can't choose what defense applies.

 

About using STUN as Knockout:

In all regards Sleeping is the most common form of unconsciousness a human will experience.

Also, a character that is hit by such a strike and is "only" at -3 STUN is propably so tough he should not be knocked out for good and still has all the penalties:

Loosing one Phase, during wich he is at 0 OCV and DCV, has his Hit Location Modifiers halved and suffers double the STUN

Stun and Endurance at -3 + Recovery

Lying on the ground

All Constant Powers stopped

 

The suppress might last the amount of time fed in through END or could be bought to 0 END and given a time period that could be disrupted by someone vigorously shaking the victim to wake them up.

That later part sounds like you want to introduce an existing rule: Helping characters to wake up (6E2 106, Taking recoveries [while knocked out])

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

That later part sounds like you want to introduce an existing rule: Helping characters to wake up (6E2 106' date=' Taking recoveries [while knocked out'])

 

Actully I was using an existing rule. I had suggested the suppress be 0 END and shaking the victim would be a reasonably common way to stop the effect.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Actully I was using an existing rule. I had suggested the suppress be 0 END and shaking the victim would be a reasonably common way to stop the effect.

I might consider STUN suppress continuous uncontrolled

That would mean the entire Stun/Endurance would immediatly return and there would be no lingering effect from being almost put to sleep.

Also Drain Stun can't get you lower than 0 and at 0 you are still awake.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Also Drain Stun can't get you lower than 0 and at 0 you are still awake.

 

Not often anyone is able to do this to you Christopher but

 

If a character’s STUN total is reduced to zero or below (whether by one attack or multiple attacks)' date=' he is [i']Knocked Out[/i].

 

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Not often anyone is able to do this to you Christopher but

That still leaves the other problems.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

That still leaves the other problems.

 

No more than other solutions - just different ones. I think this achieves a feel that an EB based solution does not.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

No more than other solutions - just different ones. I think this achieves a feel that an EB based solution does not.

What is your solution to that you pay 4 times as much for the same effect? (10 points per 1d6 Drain + halving for defense Characteristic).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Hmm. Costs - here is one build proposed above

 

Sleep Gas Grenades (65 active, 24 real): Blast 4d6, Constant (+1/2), Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +3/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (ED; All Or Nothing; LS: Gas, Holding Breath; +1); OAF (-1), 4 Continuing Charges lasting 1 Turn each (-1/2), Limited Range (Throwing distance only; -1/4)

 

This gas will hang about for a turn and do an average of 14 STUN as long as victims had no LS or were not holding their breath. It can be used four times a day. This is unlikely to knock anyone out unless they stay in the area of effect. Victims will recover as normal.

 

Here is an alternate build.

 

Sleep Gas Grenades (90 active, 33 real): 4d6 Suppress, 0 END (+1/2; effect ends when victim actively woken up e.g. by vigorous shaking), Area Of Effect (16m Radius; +3/4), Attack Versus Alternate Defense (All Or Nothing; LS: Gas, Holding Breath; +0); OAF (-1), Can only be used four times a day (-1/2), Limited Range (Throwing distance only; -1/4)

 

This suppresses, on average, 28 STUN unless someone has LS or is holding their breath. It will put most non supers to sleep immediately and they will remain that way until they are woken up. It is limited to four uses per day.

 

I don't think cost is an issue unless point caps are in use.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

tried editing, didn't work. Didn't take halved effect into account. So cost may be an issue. Will look at making 3D6 constant - extended exposure makes effect more likely

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

It's propably easier to jsut apply a custom limitation to the Blast version:

Only takes effect when has enough to knock target out and vanishes if woken up again.

 

Edit: At least one of the doublings is taken care of by the fact that Stun cost 1 CP per 2 (propably easiest to take the Defense power halving). But that still leaves the problem with the higher cost of Drain.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

One issue with 0 stun and not below - at 0 to -9, IIRC, the character remains fully aware of his environment. I don't believe anything says he actually falls to the ground either.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

.... I don't believe anything says he actually falls to the ground either.

Which makes sense. There are plenty of examples in most source material (movies especially) of characters getting knocked out on their feet and staying upright until someone 'barely' pushes them and they then fall down.

 

from 6e2 page 106

 

Knockout

 

If a character is only barely Knocked Out (down to -10 STUN), he’s not completely unconscious — in fact, it’s more like he’s deeply Stunned. Depending upon the character and the nature of the attack, he may even be on his feet, wobbly but still standing, as he tries to shake off the effects of the attack. He’s dimly aware of what’s going on around him, but is too woozy and dazed to take any action or maintain any power. He can make a PER Roll to perceive something really important, but otherwise he cannot interact with the world. He can’t move, Dodge, take any Actions, or do anything but take Recoveries.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

to me, it is about the circumstances. This is not knockout. This is sleeping. Being aware and able to wake up is a feature of sleeping rather than unconsciousness. It has been demonstrated that sleeping people remain aware of their surroundings, the brain just chooses not to take any notice.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

to me' date=' it is about the circumstances. This is not knockout. This is sleeping. Being aware and able to wake up is a feature of sleeping rather than unconsciousness. It has been demonstrated that sleeping people remain aware of their surroundings, the brain just chooses not to take any notice.[/quote']

That means for me that going to sleep is nothing more than Voluntarily lowering your STUN to 0.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

That means for me that going to sleep is nothing more than Voluntarily lowering your STUN to 0.

 

if you feel the need to model stuff in HERO, then this might indeed be the model for going to sleep. :-)

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Which makes sense. There are plenty of examples in most source material (movies especially) of characters getting knocked out on their feet and staying upright until someone 'barely' pushes them and they then fall down.

 

One of the common criticisms of Hero is that "you have to hit the downed opponent to keep him down". No, you don't. If he's at 0 to -9, he is still standing. This is when the Thing tells us It's Clobbering Time, and the enemy wakes up in the Vault two days later. He took double stun since he was KO'd. If he's down, he won't recover until PS 12, if then.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

to me' date=' it is about the circumstances. This is not knockout. This is sleeping. Being aware and able to wake up is a feature of sleeping rather than unconsciousness. It has been demonstrated that sleeping people remain aware of their surroundings, the brain just chooses not to take any notice.[/quote']

 

Sure. But I have heard music in a dream, recognized it as my clock radio and forced myself to wake up. Sleeping gas normally implies the target stays asleep.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

if you feel the need to model stuff in HERO' date=' then this might indeed be the model for going to sleep. :-)[/quote']

It is the same result.

Both in sleep and low unconsciousness you need to make a Perception roll to notice intersting things.

OCV, DCV, hit location penalties and Stun multiplication is the same.

Mental Defenses are the same.

It would make sense that you start with 0 END or your Rec when you awake (nobody jumps up and runs a marathon).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Sure. But I have heard music in a dream' date=' recognized it as my clock radio and forced myself to wake up. Sleeping gas normally implies the target stays asleep.[/quote']

 

The suppress build indicates that the suppress lasts until the person is woken up. If they are still in the gas then they may go straight back to sleep again. But the person will remain sleeping until they are woken up.

 

In the situation where you are knocked out then you will wake up as soon as you recover...