Knockout Gas

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

It is the same result.

Both in sleep and low unconsciousness you need to make a Perception roll to notice intersting things.

OCV, DCV, hit location penalties and Stun multiplication is the same.

Mental Defenses are the same.

It would make sense that you start with 0 END or your Rec when you awake (nobody jumps up and runs a marathon).

 

I agreed with you until the last line. I know that when I wake up I am not on the verge of exhaustion and I have leapt out of bed, grabbed a stick and run down stairs when I thought I heard an intruder...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Actually, I find if I don't get enough sleep, I'm good to go when I get up - it's later in the day when I start to fade. Reality is hard to simulate because it just doesn't act all that realistic

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

I agree. If life was more like HERO, things would be so much easier to understand, we could just lift the corner and look at the numbers and the build used to see what needs to be sorted out...

 

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

I agreed with you until the last line. I know that when I wake up I am not on the verge of exhaustion and I have leapt out of bed' date=' grabbed a stick and run down stairs when I thought I heard an intruder...[/quote']

You jump up the second your brain switches from "Sleep" to "Conscious"? That is very, very unlikely.

More likely your waking up is a gradual process and it takes seconds or minutes before you move = a lot of tiem to recover.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Actually' date=' I find if I don't get enough sleep, I'm good to go when I get up - it's later in the day when I start to fade. Reality is hard to simulate because it just doesn't act all that realistic [/quote']

That is more a problem of not knowing all the facts. I was told once that sleep goes in 3 hour phases of deep Rem and wakeability. You have a lot harder time to wake up after 7.5 hours of sleep than after 3, 6 or 9.

 

Once I started to plan my sleeping time as time to start sleeping + multiple of 3 hours to sleep + time to wake up I get out of bed much easier. So that information has thus been veryfied.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

You jump up the second your brain switches from "Sleep" to "Conscious"? That is very, very unlikely.

More likely your waking up is a gradual process and it takes seconds or minutes before you move = a lot of tiem to recover.

 

There is little point in arguing this Christopher. It is not like a rules argument.

 

If you are of the opinion that you can suddenly awake then you build to that and if you think you should wake up sluggish (0 STUN, 0 END) and then recover to full then you build to that.

 

I think we are both clear on where our perception of the world sits.

 

 

Doc

[Wolfgar Lyles]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

I think it's normal for an individual who has been put into an artificially induced sleep with drugs or gas to wake up much more sluggish than one who has fallen asleep naturally, for what it's worth.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

I think it's normal for an individual who has been put into an artificially induced sleep with drugs or gas to wake up much more sluggish than one who has fallen asleep naturally' date=' for what it's worth.[/quote']

Very good points. Very few drugs are without side effects and a very bad sleep sounds like a fitting side effect for a gas that can force a persons brain into sleep mode.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

But if we were seeking realism (always dangerous in what is often a cinematic style of game) there is no sluggishness associated with only being on 3 STUN 3 END. You function totally normally unless you use too much END. Sluggishness to me would mean moving more slowly, thinking more slowly and being less effective in agility type stuff or even just seeing it.

 

Neither of the current builds achieves that.

 

Doc

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

But if we were seeking realism (always dangerous in what is often a cinematic style of game) there is no sluggishness associated with only being on 3 STUN 3 END. You function totally normally unless you use too much END. Sluggishness to me would mean moving more slowly, thinking more slowly and being less effective in agility type stuff or even just seeing it.

 

Neither of the current builds achieves that.

 

Doc

How many action can you do with 3 END and 3 Stun?

Every standart maneuver costs 1 END (even Dodge). Plus the endurance for movement. Not to mention actually attacking. And even if you are a brick, an area of effect attack could easily knock you out again.

 

If you have a SPD of 5 and revived just for your first phase in the turn, you have knocked yourself out after 4-5 Phases even if nobody hits you.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

How many action can you do with 3 END and 3 Stun?

Every standart maneuver costs 1 END (even Dodge). Plus the endurance for movement. Not to mention actually attacking. And even if you are a brick, an area of effect attack could easily knock you out again.

 

If you have a SPD of 5 and revived just for your first phase in the turn, you have knocked yourself out after 4-5 Phases even if nobody hits you.

 

If you are a brick, this knockout gas will not have really impacted on you and even if it had, one recovery should probably easily set you back on your feet. And there would be no sluggishness - just close to unconsciousness - they are different things though they can masquerade as close cousins in a game.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

If you are a brick' date=' this knockout gas will not have really impacted on you and even if it had, one recovery should probably easily set you back on your feet. And there would be no sluggishness - just close to unconsciousness - they are different things though they can masquerade as close cousins in a game. [/quote']

Your general amount of Stun and Recovery will be there to simulate the "little effect". Most Bricks have to be gassed contionously (multiple phases) before they go down, but many start "choking" on the gas right away unable to do much to escape (the are stunned by the damage).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

How many action can you do with 3 END and 3 Stun? Every standart maneuver costs 1 END (even Dodge). Plus the endurance for movement. Not to mention actually attacking.

 

But I find myself able to act normally when awakening - in fact, invigorated if I was awakened suddenly, say by a loud noise. That's not consistent with waking up with the 4 END and 4 STUN I would have after one normal recovery at 0 STUN.

 

And even if you are a brick' date=' an area of effect attack could easily knock you out again.[/quote']

 

And yet pain rouses most people from sleep, rather than putting them back to sleep, doesn't it? Seems we're far afield from "real realism" again.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

But I find myself able to act normally when awakening - in fact' date=' invigorated if I was awakened suddenly, say by a loud noise. That's not consistent with waking up with the 4 END and 4 STUN I would have after one normal recovery at 0 STUN.[/quote']

You can't suddenly wake up out of the deepest REM sleep.

The time you did wake up, you propably were in one of the "easy wakeability" phases we go through every 3 hours of normal sleep.

 

And yet pain rouses most people from sleep' date=' rather than putting them back to sleep, doesn't it? Seems we're far afield from "real realism" again.[/quote']

Stun does not equal pain, or vice versa. Sufficient Pain often includes some stun Damage in the process, but they are by no means combined. I can just as easily built a painless blast, stun only as I can built a pain based killing attack.

[Martin2]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

KNOCKOUT GAS GRENADE: Transform XD6, Area of Effect (12m radius; +3/4), Limitaion does not effect Life Support [self-Contained Breathing] or holding one's breath; -Y); OAF (-1), 4 Charges (-1). Transforms person in to a person who is a sleep. Heals back Z minutes after leaving area effect of Knockout Gas Grenade.

 

X, Y, Z Active cost and real cost to be determined by GM.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

You can't suddenly wake up out of the deepest REM sleep.

The time you did wake up, you propably were in one of the "easy wakeability" phases we go through every 3 hours of normal sleep.

 

Most people do not sleep in 3 hour increments, though. Typically, 7.5 to 8 hours sleep is cited. As you note, however, sleep is a cycle. And some people defini9tely do sleep lighter than others.

 

Stun does not equal pain' date=' or vice versa. Sufficient Pain often includes some stun Damage in the process, but they are by no means combined. I can just as easily built a painless blast, stun only as I can built a pain based killing attack.[/quote']

 

I'm pretty sure fire, swords, electricity, ice, acid, lasers, bullets and generic blasters hurt. Non-painful attacks are certainly possible, but I'd put them in the definite minority. And an attack that only does STUN can certainly be painful, just as one which does BOD could be painless.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Stun does not equal pain' date=' or vice versa. Sufficient Pain often includes some stun Damage in the process, but they are by no means combined. I can just as easily built a painless blast, stun only as I can built a pain based killing attack.[/quote']

While an attack Power does not have to inflict pain, I'd say the relation between pain and Stun is as close (or closer) as the relation between sleep and being forcefully bludgeoned unconscious, which you seem to consider about equal.

[Wolfgar Lyles]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Most STUN probably hurts for most definitions of STUN, although I can think of things that would likely be represented by STUN that don't really hurt that much, like bleeding. The wound hurts usually, but the blood loss mostly just makes you feel weak.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Most people do not sleep in 3 hour increments' date=' though. Typically, 7.5 to 8 hours sleep is cited. As you note, however, sleep is a cycle. And some people defini9tely do sleep lighter than others.[/quote']

Does this number include the time to start sleeping and waking up? How was "sleep" defined?

Statistics are a difficult beast - if you don't know the exact defintion of any word, you are just throwing out guesses.

Pratical example:

A few years back in germany there was a study of how women with academic background had children and it was deemed "too few". I was told about it thsi one from an women with academic background. She had read the definition and it was interesting: She had 3 children wich had already grown up, but when counted for the study she was counted as having none.

You know how this discrpancy came to pass? They didn't count how many women with academic backgroudn had children (as you might have supsected). They looked at households wich contained a women with Academic bakcground and the number of children in said household.

 

And about your personal experience:

How many loud noises where there to wich you didn't wake up? That number could easily be a million times higher than the number of loud noises to wich you did wake up, making that waking up a rare to unlikely situation.

 

I'm pretty sure fire' date=' swords, electricity, ice, acid, lasers, bullets and generic blasters hurt. Non-painful attacks are certainly possible, but I'd put them in the definite minority. And an attack that only does STUN can certainly be painful, just as one which does BOD could be painless.[/quote']

 

While an attack Power does not have to inflict pain' date=' I'd say the relation between pain and [/font']Stun is as close (or closer) as the relation between sleep and being forcefully bludgeoned unconscious, which you seem to consider about equal.

Then what about Knockout Gas? Or Lack of Air?

Stun also means System Shock. And my body has a wierd tendency to go into slight shock despite me feeling little to no pain from an accident.

You picked out the most painfull ways to get stun and ingore the others that might not include any pain.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Then what about Knockout Gas? Or Lack of Air?

Stun also means System Shock. And my body has a wierd tendency to go into slight shock despite me feeling little to no pain from an accident.

You picked out the most painfull ways to get stun and ingore the others that might not include any pain.

 

I picked out what I consider very common RPG methods of taking damage. Considering we are discussing a build for knockout gas, and whether doing STUN damage is an appropriate simulation, identifying it as an example of an effect that does STUN damage seems questionable at best.

 

I do not deny that there are good examples of non-painful SFX (game or real life) that inflict STUN or BOD, even if we ignore the SFX under discussion. However, if we're quibbling the similarity between "asleep" and "KO'd", the fact that many SFX which cause a KO result would reduce the ability to sleep seems to me to indicate a dissimilarity.

 

You also seem to take it for granted that real life features "Stun" and "Bod". This discussion seems to me to be more about whether loss of STUN appropriately simulates sleep attacks. Not whether we have used it, despite its shortfalls when compared to real life.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

One of the common criticisms of Hero is that "you have to hit the downed opponent to keep him down". No' date=' you don't. If he's at 0 to -9, he is still standing. This is when the Thing tells us It's Clobbering Time, and the enemy wakes up in the Vault two days later. He took double stun since he was KO'd. If he's down, he won't recover until PS 12, if then.[/quote']

 

Or, you just say that unconscious villains don't get recoveries, and call it a day.

[Christopher]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Or' date=' you just say that unconscious villains don't get recoveries, and call it a day.[/quote']

It's even encouraged by the book to not give anyone unrelevant (henchmen) recoveries once they reach -10 Stun.

 

Also what do we have the cover maneuver for?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Or' date=' you just say that unconscious villains don't get recoveries, and call it a day.[/quote']

 

Sure - after all, why should the villains get the same effect from recovery that the PC's do. If I were going to do this, why should those villains not get a limitation on their REC and spend the points somewhere else? A PC would surely take this limitation.

 

I think the bigger problem is the GM who assumes that, immediately on recovering, the only plausible choice the opponent can make is to rejoin the fray. To me, that VIPER agent that got smacked down in the first phase of combat, and recovers to see 80% of the VIPER forces are down, is far more likely to slink away than to grab his Blaster Rifle and fire on one of those Supers. And there's nothing wrong with that fresh recovered Supervillain looking at the field of combat and deciding on flight or surrender, rather than getting beat down again.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

And about your personal experience:

How many loud noises where there to wich you didn't wake up? That number could easily be a million times higher than the number of loud noises to wich you did wake up, making that waking up a rare to unlikely situation.

 

Yes, people don't reliably wake up to noise. That's why those alarm clock things never really sold, and I'm typically late for work because generally I just sleep through that sudden noise of the alarm or the radio kicking in. Right you are!

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Knockout Gas

 

Back to knockout gas and drugs. It always semed to me they should affect the victim on his own phase not the attackers. Kind of like drowning. Any thoughts on this or how to accomplish it neatly?