What makes Luck "Special"

[Duane From RI]

I am going over all basic assumptions right now as I design a campaign that has some features that make it much more seat of the pants.

One of the assumptions I am going over is what makes each Special power so "Special" that you can't put it in a framework.

I have come up with reasoning for Enhanced Senses, Skills, Mental/Power/Flash Defense.

 

My question to the forum: What makes Luck "Special"? Why is it unbalancing to put in a multipower or vpp?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Well, for one thing it doesn't have a set effect. Instead multiple options of how to use it are suggested. Several of those option are things like rolling Luck at the beginning of the session and the result is how many times you get a bonus, or get to re-roll, or whatever. If it is in a multipower you get the cost break, possibly without any negative depending on which application you decide to use for your campaign.

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Well' date=' for one thing it doesn't have a set effect. Instead multiple options of how to use it are suggested. Several of those option are things like rolling Luck at the beginning of the session and the result is how many times you get a bonus, or get to re-roll, or whatever. If it is in a multipower you get the cost break, possibly without any negative depending on which application you decide to use for your campaign.[/quote']

These are the problems I see as well. It's the Sense/Skills/Special Defenses thing:

You can have the on in the rare cases (moments) you need them, but then forget them the rest of the time. So you have a saving without penalty.

[Duane From RI]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

The way I see it, you only get to roll Luck in certain circumstances. Thus the player doesn't have to allocate points until the 1) battle isn't going his way or 2) he's missed a clue or so on. Since Luck is so cheap that would be major unfair to allow in a vpp or multipower. Compounding this is the amount of luck you might need in a battle versus the amount of luck you might need out of combat. In a fight, a single SIX on a luck roll can make the battle go much better. 15 pts of Luck gives you a 50% of getting a single SIX. Out of battle or in dire circumstances you may want two SIXES so 30 pts of Luck could be dialled up. Again - major unfair.

Luck is clearly a "Special" power.

Thanks guys for the input!!!!

[dmjalund]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

also the GM is the one who determines when Luck can be rolled - makes putting it in a Multipower or VPP extra chancy

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

also the GM is the one who determines when Luck can be rolled - makes putting it in a Multipower or VPP extra chancy

I would think that means there is a -1 Uncontrolled rolled into it's price.

[Escafarc]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

I am going over all basic assumptions right now as I design a campaign that has some features that make it much more seat of the pants.

One of the assumptions I am going over is what makes each Special power so "Special" that you can't put it in a framework.

I have come up with reasoning for Enhanced Senses, Skills, Mental/Power/Flash Defense.

 

My question to the forum: What makes Luck "Special"? Why is it unbalancing to put in a multipower or vpp?

 

I always run into problems with not allowing enhanced senses and flash defences in frameworks, because some wiseass takes a gadget pool and all I hear is: "What? I can't build a parabolic mike, or a pair of sunglasses, but you are OK with a lunar teleporter? Idiot."

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

I always run into problems with not allowing enhanced senses and flash defences in frameworks' date=' because some wiseass takes a gadget pool and all I hear is: "What? I can't build a parabolic mike, or a pair of sunglasses, but you are OK with a lunar teleporter? Idiot."[/quote']

You are aware all those examples are explicitly on the "GM should allow it list" in the RAW?

[Sean Waters]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

You are aware all those examples are explicitly on the "GM should allow it list" in the RAW?

 

Yes, which makes the whole thing pointless. If I am a shapeshifter, can I not make by ears into parabolic mikes, or change the focal length of my eye, or change the colour composition of my rods and cones to see in different spectra? Can I not grow a nictating membrane, or mutate my fingers into tiny tentaclular lockpicks? Why should gadgeteers be able to do anything they want and other concepts can't, and if they CAN, assuming they come up with a good enough reason, why bother with the rule in the first place?

 

There is simply no point in having a rule that prevents this sort of thing if you are going to go around and say 'unless you can think of a good reason why the rule should be broken'. WE KNOW THAT IT IS ALL SUBJECT TO GM APPROVAL. Write that once in big letters on the first page, remove all subsequent references and needless 'balance' rules, and we could probably halve the length of the book.

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Yes' date=' which makes the whole thing pointless. If I am a shapeshifter, can I not make by ears into parabolic mikes, or change the focal length of my eye, or change the colour composition of my rods and cones to see in different spectra? Can I not grow a nictating membrane, or mutate my fingers into tiny tentaclular lockpicks? Why should gadgeteers be able to do anything they want and other concepts can't, and if they CAN, assuming they come up with a good enough reason, why bother with the rule in the first place?[/quote']

How fast can you Shape Shift? Could you take the same form without that Flash Defense to have more points free for other stuff?

 

All those Special Powers are likely to be not used very often. Allowing you to just "make" yourself resistant to them without having to invest any real points/permanent points into it could be over-beneficial.

[Duane From RI]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

The key to the Flash Defense and Enhanced Sense debate in frameworks is that the GM needs to set ground rules early on what he won't allow due to balance reasons and what it takes to bring something into balance so that he will allow it.

For Example: The GM says at the beginning of the campaign that "anything goes" is off the table. He will consider allowing Flash Defense or Enhanced Senses in a framework if there is some sort of limit on what is available such that the GM can say at each available moment that the item doesn't exist at a particular power level. The GM further states that he will be generous with things at the lower end of each scale. So a player goes ahead and makes a character called Shoplifter. Shoplifter can reach into his fake belly prothesis and pull out anything that he might have been able to find in the real world. Sunglasses are obvious, but he could also have a microscope from some high school lab. The balance is that the GM can make the call that a high school microscope is at the lower end of the microscopic vision scale but a Electron Microscope is too far up the microscopic vision scale to be allowed.

Now assume a similar GM but a different player who wants to make a character called Conjurer. The GM reminds the player at the beginning of the campaign that there are balance limts on SPECIAL powers. The player checks with the GM to see if he can conjure the magic equivalent of an Electronic Microscope. The GM says no - he specifies that this is strictly a balance issue not a comment on Conjurer's special effect and encourages the playerto build something into his special effect as to why he can't conjure an electronic microscope. If the player of Conjurer is adult enough he accepts the game balance argument and then gets creative to build limits into his special effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

How fast can you Shape Shift? Could you take the same form without that Flash Defense to have more points free for other stuff?

 

All those Special Powers are likely to be not used very often. Allowing you to just "make" yourself resistant to them without having to invest any real points/permanent points into it could be over-beneficial.

 

Very fast? Very slow? And yes.

 

Mind you that also applies to Gadget Pools.

 

Flash and Adjustment powers are not used very often in our games, true, but that is because they are a pain in the backside. Use them a lot and everyone HAS to buy defences. Mind you VPPs are rare too, and for much the same reason. Life Support is no longer a special power and you can use that to cripple NND attacks. It is all arbitrary and arbitrary is, well somewhat necessary in a made up game, but should be minimised.

 

As an awful GM, I'm perfectly capable of getting some poor schmuck with a VPP dolled up in sunglasses, with parabolic ears and molecular control luck, looking like a complete freak, and then have some one just walk up and punch him when he has diverted resources from his normal defences. Awful GMs are never worried about balance issues because we control the whole world!

 

The special power distinction makes no sense any more. If you are worried about game balance, well either do not allow, or limit, how frameworks can be used when you approve them. Mind you, if someone did want Luck in a framework, I'd want to know how they thought that was going to work.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Aside from a VPP that can only be changed between adventures I can't think of any framework that Luck would make sense in.

 

I guess it could fit in an Elemental Control, but those are dead. Dead and gone forever! BWAHAHAhAHA!

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Very fast? Very slow? And yes.

Very Slow:

Might be okay. You need to spend time to get rid of the useless power/get it to work. But then again every special power can be okay in a "hard to change" Framework.

 

Very fast:

Here is the problem. You pay only a fraction of the price, but it is not nearly as much hassle for a 1/5 or 1/10 cost break.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

What about a character whose SFX is the Control of Elements? He can use it for specific purposes (spontaneous combustion, directed Brownian motion etc) or as a general field that protects him and enhances his abilities subconsciously on a quantum level? That could work in a MP or VPP, and could probably be used to justify enhanced senses, and exotic defences too.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Very Slow:

Might be okay. You need to spend time to get rid of the useless power/get it to work. But then again every special power can be okay in a "hard to change" Framework.

 

Very fast:

Here is the problem. You pay only a fraction of the price, but it is not nearly as much hassle for a 1/5 or 1/10 cost break.

 

Well, yes, but...

 

VPPs are not bottomless. If I am fighting someone with a VPP, I keep on switching attacks (assuming I've got a VPP or MP of my own) so he has PD up when I hit him with Flash, Flash Defence up when I hit him with DEMCV drain, and Power Defence up when I hit him with Mental Blast. Then I punch him. Just because he can create any defence, he is hardly invulnerable: he has to pick one, in which case he is vulnerable to other attack types, or spread them out, in which case he is not at optimal defence levels.

 

If VPP Lad is fighting Flash Lass The One Trick Pony, he'll cream her. Unless of course, the name is a distraction and a lie...really, I am an awful GM.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

I agree, you have to switch to the Flash defense before you can benefit, and half of the time you're not going to know you need it until you've already been flashed.

 

A Nictitating Membrane seems like a fine Shapeshifting Tricks multipower slot to me.

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

What about a character whose SFX is the Control of Elements? He can use it for specific purposes (spontaneous combustion' date=' directed Brownian motion etc) or as a general field that protects him and enhances his abilities subconsciously on a quantum level? That could work in a MP or VPP, and could probably be used to justify enhanced senses, and exotic defences too.[/quote']

Then gamebalance might still prevent it.

 

The same way it prevents Superman Clone Nr. 471,142 from being "Invulnerable", despite all source Material Claiming it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Then gamebalance might still prevent it.

 

The same way it prevents Superman Clone Nr. 471,142 from being "Invulnerable", despite all source Material Claiming it.

 

I might argue that Control Of Elements is a justification for the purchase of certain powers, whereas invulnerability is an absolute effect that is not on offer in Hero. You might counter that 'invulnerability' is no more than a label allowing the purchase of high defences. I would then come back at you by suggesting that invulnerability is, by its nature an absolute, and not, in any event, a special effect, but rather a description of how the power is intended to function. You would clearly attack that proposition by bringing up the fact that Hero itself has absolute effect rules, and this is a well debated area already. I would...

 

...have you seen Sherlock Holmes?

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

I might argue that Control Of Elements is a justification for the purchase of certain powers' date=' whereas invulnerability is an absolute effect that is not on offer in Hero. You might counter that 'invulnerability' is no more than a label allowing the purchase of high defences. I would then come back at you by suggesting that invulnerability is, by its nature an absolute, and not, in any event, a special effect, but rather a description of how the power is intended to function.[/quote']

I could buy the same defenses as "inpropable luck" (propably the timesstream does not allows me to die), or "insane predictive ability".

Still, no mater how I label it or what SFX I take. It does not changes that powers should cost a certain amount and that certain concepts are inherently inbalanced (like Phönix recent Material Girl with the demand that she never takes the damage her golem takes).

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

Being invulnerable doesn't require that you're invincible unless you further specify "complete invulnerability to harm" and even then you could just be exaggerating. I pretty sure even Silver Age Kryptonians felt it when they slugged one another.

 

Honestly, given the kind of scale characters like that are on you should probably give them regular amount of defenses and then some DN to make sure attacks on a lesser scale of power don't bother them much. Which actually puts them on a much less ridiculous point scale than they were on in previous editions, even if you give them an extra serving of DN with an Only to Counteract Reduced Negation limitation and enough Reduced Negation to ignore their own DN.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

How fast can you Shape Shift? Could you take the same form without that Flash Defense to have more points free for other stuff?

 

All those Special Powers are likely to be not used very often. Allowing you to just "make" yourself resistant to them without having to invest any real points/permanent points into it could be over-beneficial.

 

Very Slow:

Might be okay. You need to spend time to get rid of the useless power/get it to work. But then again every special power can be okay in a "hard to change" Framework.

 

Very fast:

Here is the problem. You pay only a fraction of the price, but it is not nearly as much hassle for a 1/5 or 1/10 cost break.

 

And all of these options are just as available with a Gadget Pool as with any other VPP. If it is not unbalanced for the gadget pool (and the RAW would indicate it is not) then how is it unbalanced for any other mechanically identical VPP? Gadget Pools can be Cosmic as easily as any other SFX, so speed with which powers can change has nothing to do with the RAW differentiation.

[Christopher]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

And all of these options are just as available with a Gadget Pool as with any other VPP. If it is not unbalanced for the gadget pool (and the RAW would indicate it is not) then how is it unbalanced for any other mechanically identical VPP? Gadget Pools can be Cosmic as easily as any other SFX' date=' so speed with which powers can change has nothing to do with the RAW differentiation.[/quote']

It has focus, it can be destroyed.

That makes most special powers much more manageable/balanced, the same way long switching time does.

 

That thsi power will never be on when you need it is not likely. How often do you ahve to be flashed by the same enemy before you remember that he has a Flash? What are Skills like KS: Superhuman World and KS: Supervillains there for?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What makes Luck "Special"

 

It has focus, it can be destroyed.

That makes most special powers much more manageable/balanced, the same way long switching time does.

 

The focus is equally vulnerable to destruction whether or not it is in a framework. The character who places a Focus on a power gets a cost break, which is intended to account for the potential loss of the focus itself. Again, if that's a Cosmic Gadget Pool, points can be reallocated as a zero phase action with no skill roll. The character can move another 7 points into another pair of 10 Flash Def OIF Sunglasses. Arguably, he can move 5 points to have twice as many Flash Defense Sunglasses. His Focus makes the powers "gear", providing (arguably) access to this multiplier.