Revisiting TAUNT

[sporeworld]

I did a bunch of thread browsing and wanted to revive the topic of "TAUNTS".

 

I'm building a Brick whose function would be to draw opponent's away from his teammates (Taunt) and save himself the trouble of half-move-attack (make THEM do the walking). The PRE Attack seems to be the best approach.

 

Questions: Could the modifier "Side Effects" be in play, here? As in, every time I use the power, someone wants to belt me?

I can see "Gestures" and "Incantation" playing into it nicely ("You! In the stupid hat! $5 says you can't hit me right HERE in the face!"

 

In any case, PRE attack, maybe vs EGO seems like a good approach.

 

The only other thing I can think of, might be a very modified PRE Drain (Ranged) or maybe INT or EGO (depending on what I'm targeting). Maybe AOE, as in targeting the hex (or Explosion or Cone). If the PRE Drain and the PRE Attack are bought as "Unified Power" it might make even MORE sense.

 

I can see having a kind of Damage Shield (they just keep getting more ticked off), or even making it "Sticky" (although that's a bit odd). Maybe Constant or Damage Over Time to represent the continual rerunning of the taunt in the victims mind. Maybe he resists it at first, but the second taunts gets him rushing like a bull.

 

Did I miss anything...?

[Christopher]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

The "other want to beat you" is what you want them to do. So no penalty for that.

 

PRE-Attacks are possible, but they always have the downside of being in GM-decision teritory. They can be usde on a case-by-case basis.

But a lot of extra PRE, only to Taunt is the cheapest way.

 

The solid way is Mind Controll, Single Command (Attack me). The Mental Effect Level can be used to gauge how bad a target you are.

Things like personal preferences and personal danger are important (soem archetypes are weak against otehrs, some targets more important than others).

 

However, you should also look at non-MMORPG way to controll the fight:

A Brick can easily Grab and Hold a target.

He could throw or shove a foe away, so he can fight him on his own terms/seperate him from his allies.

All stuff a MMORPG does not allow you to do with the game mechanic.

[Lucius]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Taunting: (Total: 35 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost) "Hit ME!" Persuasion 13- (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to persuade someone to attack the character (-1) (Real Cost: 1) plus +5/+5d6 Striking Appearance (to make people want to strike him) (vs. all characters), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Requires A Taunt Roll (Skill roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Limited Power Every target makes an INT, EGO, or PRE roll each phase to "break out." (Modified by Taunt roll; -1/2) (Real Cost: 9) plus Uncontrolled (+1/2) (10 Active Points) applied to PRE (Real Cost: 10)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Hmmm. Yeah, I agree, I should be able to do it IN character - that's the real point. If I don't want a little trail of green Envy Energy to zap my opponent, then it should be character based. I know as a player, if I got taunted to attack a brick (probably not smart), I'd want to hear that I just got mind controlled, or I'm gonna be miffed.

 

Maybe the PRE roll on their part might be needed to see if they fall for it. There isn't really a "Wisdom" stat (not WISE to smoke OR rush the average tank), so either PRE, EGO or INT?

 

Or maybe introduce time into it? Can someone "Haymaker" a taunt? Like spend their entire phase gesturing rudely and bellowing incantations of racial insensitivity, just to have it hit for greater effect the next phase? The cool part there would be (and I know this from experience), I might rush the guy just to get him to shut up (before he says something REALLY crude and lands the Haymaker/argument he's building up to).

 

So, what is it that makes Indiana Jones respond to the threat/taunt of swords with his pistol (and an attitude) and not his whip? Besides common sense. Just Intelligence? Or is that where EGO comes into play. Doctor Doom MUST respond to my insults as a matter of pride.

 

Could I "Place My Shot" or "Brace" my "attack"? Take an extra phase to rub my chin, then say "Oh, I get it! The Brain logo on your chest is supposed to be IRONIC! Have you considered maybe a bus, instead. Obviously a very SHORT bus... Maybe like a Mini Cooper, or..." Surely, he'd have attacked me by the 5th or 6th recovery, right?

 

And if PRE attacks take no time, I could just continually (Autofire? No, be serious) launch them at every opponent on the battlefield. Want me to shut it? Then either launch your "Darkness vs Hearing" power, "Drain Str, Only Usable on Tongues" or "Language Skills, Korean, Usable on Others" right now. Or git off that flying carpet and hit me with that Death Ray! House Hunters is on in like 25 minutes!

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

To "Haymaker" a taunt, it would need to be stated with an outrageous French accent.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

hahahahahahah!!!! Brilliant!!

[Christopher]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

And if PRE attacks take no time' date=' I could just continually (Autofire? No, be serious) launch them at every opponent on the battlefield. Want me to shut it? Then either launch your "Darkness vs Hearing" power, "Drain Str, Only Usable on Tongues" or "Language Skills, Korean, Usable on Others" right now. Or git off that flying carpet and hit me with that Death Ray! House Hunters is on in like 25 minutes![/quote']

How often and how much a Presence Attack does depends exclusively on the GM.

On the plus side it can affect multiple targets by default (whoever feels adressed). On the downside, it should not be something you just repeat over and over again.

 

It is possible to apply Naked Advnatages to PRE, but in that case using that Naked Advantage becomes an Standart or Attack Action.

 

One thing about Mind Controll you should consider is that it does not mean "Zap of Green Envy energy". Mind Controll is an attack power with wich you force foes to act a certain way. While the "Mental Effect" is the most common special effect for it, it is by no means the only special effect for Mind Control. It can be used just as easily for a Spiderman Taunt.

APG I has soem rules about lettign MC target other characteristics, but I would just leave it at targettign EGO. EGO is the Characteristic with wich you overcome interaction Skills and Complcaitions. It makes sense to use it for this as well.

 

Once you have build it as an attack (Naked Advantge for PRE or MC), you can of course Haymaker it and do anything else you can do with an attack.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Yeah, I think if it's going to act like an Ego attack, it would need some better special effects than I have been considering. Magneto's helmet would somehow block it out, as would some mystical Dr Strange widget. Would "Jane Ear" suffer more because of her accute hearing, while Blind Fury would take less, since he's missing out on all the gratuitous gesticulation?

So, something like this: Mind Control: NND, vs Audio Perception Roll. Affect Desolid, Cummulative (layered taunts), Constant(?), Difficult to Dispell, Set Effect (taunt to action), Stops Working if Mentalist Knocked Out (kinda silly),

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

I don't want to do it as a skill roll, but your example does make sense. I especially like the ability to make a roll to break out of it. Ego probably makes the most sense.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Rather than make the taunt an 'absolute' effect, how about making it an encouragement? Use a couple of Negative Skill Levels (or a DEX Drain that only affects CV) that only applies to targets other than the brick? His chatter and insults distract the target, but they aren't forced to attack him ... but it's a good idea.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Hmmm. That might be a good Unified power. I wonder how a GameMaster would interpret it if I declared I was using my Taunt to disrupt someone's power that had a Concentration or Incantation limitation. I hit them with my Taunt - "I'm gonna bust you up". Then I get a modifier because I just grabbed a handful of cobblestone to redecorate his face. Like INT Drain vs. Concentration...?

[Christopher]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Yeah, I think if it's going to act like an Ego attack, it would need some better special effects than I have been considering. Magneto's helmet would somehow block it out, as would some mystical Dr Strange widget. Would "Jane Ear" suffer more because of her accute hearing, while Blind Fury would take less, since he's missing out on all the gratuitous gesticulation?

So, something like this: Mind Control: NND, vs Audio Perception Roll. Affect Desolid, Cummulative (layered taunts), Constant(?), Difficult to Dispell, Set Effect (taunt to action), Stops Working if Mentalist Knocked Out (kinda silly),

You don't need "Affects Desolid", as Desolid is always affected by interaction and Mental Powers.

Also Mental Powers can't be dispelled by default.

You could use cummulative for one variant, but most of the time you just want to hit him at once.

The defense is indeed a Problem. How about AVAD vs a Characteristic? The question is, wich one. The only thing I can think of would be EGO, none of the others can really protect you from taunting.

 

Mind Controll, Alternate Combat Value (OCV vs DCV; +0), AVAD (EGO instead of Mental; +0*), Set Effect (Attack me with priority; -1)

 

*this could actually be a considerable Limitation. It would be less, if you say that only a fraction of the EGO counts as defense (say 1/2, 1/4 1/5 or 1/10) or something like EGO-5 or EGO-10.

 

Rather than make the taunt an 'absolute' effect' date=' how about making it an encouragement? Use a couple of Negative Skill Levels (or a DEX Drain that only affects CV) that only applies to targets other than the brick? His chatter and insults distract the target, but they aren't forced to attack him ... but it's a good idea.[/quote']

Yes, perhaps a Area of Effect Change Environment with OCV/DCV penalties? EGO Roll used to avoid the effect.

 

CE (-2 OCV, -2 DCV, -4 EGO) 8+8+12= 28 Base Points, Area of Effect, not when attacking user, No Range,

Making the Modified EGO Roll is the defense to not be affected. This one affects every foe and ally. Also you have to keep it "up".

 

Alternatively, you could use UAA and a Standart Area CE to "Stick" OCV/DCV penalties to someone.

Or use a Drain OCV/DCV, not when attacking user.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

OK - Bear with me. Re-reading some text makes me think Mind Control IS the right tool. So, we're looking like:

Mind Control Xd6

Alternate Combat Value (OCV vs DCV; +0), (Not sure what my OCV has to do with yelling, but, maybe Area Effect Cone or Explosion?)

AVAD (EGO instead of Mental; +0*),

Set Effect (Attack me with priority; -1)

 

No reason I couldn't also use a PRE Attack before hand. The 6th Edition Combat & Adventuring text reads:

Target’s PRE +10

Target is very impressed. He hesitates as above,and only performs a Half Phase Action during his next Phase. He considers very deeply what the attacker says, and may comply with requests or obey orders which seem worthwhile to him. He receives +5 PRE only for purposes of resisting contrary Presence Attacks made that Turn.'

 

I've never really used PRE attacks in adventures before, but I'm guessing even a Macho type guy could (as described above) lose a 1/2 action as he considers if my attack is a clever ruse, or if he should really come smash my brain bucket into a serving tray. Tough choice. And at +20 he's at a 1/2 DVC, so still not small potatoes.

 

Even if I go crazy with the dice roll and effectively "cower" him, that might be right in line with the theme. Anyone cocky enough to call me over, must have something up his sleeve. I'm outta here!

 

The more I think and read about it, the more I think a simple Presence Attack might be the right choice. Modified by the situation, not by points. Hmmm....

[Christopher]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

The more I think and read about it' date=' the more I think a simple Presence Attack might be the right choice. Modified by the situation, not by points. Hmmm....[/quote']

PRE-Attacks are deep in GM-decision teritory.

 

But as I said earlier, the entire concept of "aggro" in MMORPG's is to replace a dozen different things that can't be properly simualted in the limits of a realtime computergame:

Positioning (Blasters in the Air).

Grabs

Shoves

Throws

Presence Attacks

 

All those allow a Brick to effectively controll an enemy and protect his allies.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

I know in City of Heroes, Taunting then jumping away would get them to chase you. Obviously, only the dimmest of Thugs would really operate that way without some story element. It's hard to see from a villian/GM's perspective, forcing the players to abandon common sense and attack the guy who can probably take it (instead of BrainDrain standing right next to you).

 

Again, I think it's going to have to be character-driven, with maybe a PRE attack to help seal the deal. But huge modifiers for a weakly worded taunt, or obvious attempt to keep them from hurting an ally.

 

If the character literally glowed really brightly, maybe that would help it make more sense.

[Lucius]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Taunting: (Total: 35 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost)

"Hit ME!" Persuasion 13- (3 Active Points); Limited Power Only to persuade someone to attack the character (-1) (Real Cost: 1)

plus

+5/+5d6 Striking Appearance (to make people want to strike him) (vs. all characters), Uncontrolled (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Requires A Taunt Roll (Skill roll; Must be made each Phase/use; -1), Limited Power Every target makes an INT, EGO, or PRE roll each phase to "break out." (Modified by Taunt roll; -1/2) (Real Cost: 9) plus

Uncontrolled (+1/2) (10 Active Points) applied to PRE (Real Cost: 10)

 

I really need to not plop these things down without explaining my thinking....

 

Trying to nettle someone into attacking you is trying to influence their decisions and behavior; Persuasion Skill suitably limited seems to fit.

 

Striking Appearance addes to PRE and PRE is the way to get someone's attention. Once the first taunt roll is made, this also gives a +5 to following rolls which are necessary to keep the effect up.

 

Both Striking Appearance and normal PRE (assumed 20) are made "Uncontrolled." Since they don't cost END, this means the character declares when using a taunt how long (within reason) they want it to be effective. Note that if you say "Two turns" and get knocked down, or out, next phase, your enraged enemies will CONTINUE to pound on you or kick you while you're down.

 

There needs to be some way to "turn off" Uncontrolled Powers, but giving the victim a choice of rolling on INT, EGO, and PRE seems to me like it's worth a Limitation anyway.

 

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Please don't tease the palindromedary

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Yup. That makes sense, too.

 

We were toying with other ways to manipulate the battlefield towards H2H combat, and stretching (actual) to reach/grab/pull (think Scorpion from Mortal Combat) was one way, and Teleport Usable on Others would be another. Anyone know the exact combat procedure (it's been a really long time).

 

STRETCHING:

Grab Maneuver (Attack Action, end phase)

Pull to self / relocate (Str vs their weight) 1/2 phase.

Clobber (1/2) phase.

 

TELEPORT:

Teleport Usable on Others (Attack Action, end phase)

Clobber (1/2) phase.

 

In both cases, I can't hit til my 2nd phase, but in the Stretching example, I've got a hold on them, and they'll need to break free. Also, good chance they don't go anywhere if I hold and hit.

 

Alternately, I could have the Teleport Usable on Others have a linked/unified power to disoriented them. Or create a Damage Shield (constant flailing?) so that they take damage upon appearing in my hex.

 

A better themed version would be a City of Heroes kind of Tank that drops a Fire Patch on his own hex (Area Effect, No Range, Immunity, Continuous?) and then TP's the opponent to the hex.

 

Again, the concept here is to act as a Controller and manipulate the battlefield in favor of my teammates.

 

Thoughts?

[Epiphanis]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Not long ago I raised a similar issue in the Rules Questions forums. Here are is the feedback I got:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/89758-Drawing-fire-goading-quot-gaining-aggro-quot-Presence-Attacks-and-skill-use

[Christopher]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Anyone know the exact combat procedure (it's been a really long time).

 

STRETCHING:

Grab Maneuver (Attack Action, end phase)

Pull to self / relocate (Str vs their weight) 1/2 phase.

Clobber (1/2) phase.

 

TELEPORT:

Teleport Usable on Others (Attack Action, end phase)

Clobber (1/2) phase.

 

In both cases, I can't hit til my 2nd phase, but in the Stretching example, I've got a hold on them, and they'll need to break free. Also, good chance they don't go anywhere if I hold and hit.

In 6E you get one free attack after a successfull grab. This attack cost no time and requires no extra Attack Roll. This attack must be one of the following:

Squeeze (STR/5)

Slam (STR/5)

Throw

Block*

Control*

Redirect*

Shove*

 

Slam and Throw can not be target against another palyer/something else tha requires an attack roll to hit. Damaging someone by slamming/throwing something into a him requires a seperate attack action.

*Grab Options from APG I 167.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Brilliant! Thanks!

[Arkham]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Last time I built a character with a sort of 'taunt', I took a two-fold approach. First, a cumulative, penetrating, fairly small area Mind Control ( Attack Me ) linked to STR. So the more I hit someone, the more they and their allies wanted to focus on me. The second part was +4 OCV only to attack someone who attacked someone other than me last. So if someone is focusing on my allies, it is easier to hit them. Again, making them really want to hit me.

 

Not the purely verbal taunt you might be looking for, but it certainly did the job.

[sporeworld]

Re: Revisiting TAUNT

 

Yeah - I can see adding DCV modifiers "Only works against Enraged Person", and then engineering my Taunt "powers" or talents to incite that condition.