Damage Shield Abuse

[JmOz]

Over in another thread we have been talking about the big arguments, one that comes up over and over again is Damage Shield being over priced (I think everyone agrees with this, or at least the VAST majority)

 

Now on to the "Why" questions

 

Why was it changed (And yes it was changed), what abuses did people see in the old system (+1/2).

 

Second Question, I have heard MANY people say that there house rule is to make it a flat +1, my question is "Do you feel that it is actualy equal to a NND attack, and if so why?"

[Farkling]

Oh, I LIKE the NND analogy !!

 

Let's see, EB, NND, Does Body, No Range, Defense is "don't touch me"

 

Hmmm. Construct wise, yeah, gut instinct says it is equal to an NND, judging by the supremely common defense.

 

For 1/4 extra it becomes, "avoid you in HtH combat"

Perhaps that is underpriced? I don't know. I payed for the Hand-to-Hand modifier, and when I swept a single target, the GM ruled I could only use my damage shield once. Said Steve's rule on it was wrong and made the power abusive.

I think it was a 1 1/2d6 STUN Drain...with a 10 STR. in a supers 60 AP game...

 

So there is descrepancy on the value of the HtH modifier.

 

Perhaps the HtH mod should be +1/2, and the flat Damage Shield needs to be reduced to +1.

 

I am playtesting the +1 mod on the Damage Shield in a current campaign. It doesn't seem unbalancing yet, but I have yet to see the "sweep a single target" manuever in effect. The player's powers are relatively new. I CAN state, that he will crank out more raw damage with an equivalent AP STR boost than the use of his Plasma Shroud...but the Damage Shield is killing dice, and will have other uses.

[TheEmerged]

It's a feel thing, I guess. The first damage shield I ever saw from my characters was a "counterattack" damage shield ala Ninja Hero -- with the trick being that it was Continuous Charge. Before this, it looked like the END cost to keep the shield up or the "active point lost" to purchase Reduced END kept it in check.

 

And even then, I only felt it was a mild abuse. Then someone introduced me to the DS version of "Acid Rain" -- 1d6 HKA Damage Shield, No END, Autofire, Penetrating. However, I attribute that particular case not to the "no miss" nature of Damage Shield but to the cheapness of multiple shots for Autofire and the way Penetrating counteracts the self-limiting affect of high-advantage powers.

 

It was Bob, the guy who runs the local comic shop, who was my introduction to the argument that Damage Shield "gets Continuous for free". That is the core of the reason DS was given the requirement it was, in my opinion -- not the abuses.

 

The argument holds little water. Doesn't Trigger get Delayed Effect for free? Isn't Trigger's use so close to DS that to have seperate costs be inconsistent?

 

RE: Damage Shield as +1 advantage. This is what I've adopted -- and frankly I'm probably going to remove the current exception for "approprate powers that are already continuous or constant". +1/2 was a little cheap, and +3/4 isn't nearly pretty enough math-wise It's worked out to be about the power level I want.

 

As for the NND question? Have to think about that and come back.

[JmOz]

A third question:

 

Do you think a strait Damage Shield (just EB or RKA, maybe Ego Attack, with no other advantages except MAYBE reduced endurance) is abusive at the +1/2 level, or is it only abusive when other advantages get thrown on it?

 

For the record my fix to the DS problem is to only charge +1/2 and then give a +1 advantage if the power is abusive (similar to AF)

[Talon]

I think the problem is that Damage Shields using non-standard attacks can be very abusive, while Damage Shields with normal attacks are only abusive in low-defense games.

 

Maybe Damage Shield needs the same "extra +1 for non-standard attacks" that Autofire gets.

[Tech]

Originally posted by JmOz

A third question:

 

Do you think a strait Damage Shield (just EB or RKA, maybe Ego Attack, with no other advantages except MAYBE reduced endurance) is abusive at the +1/2 level, or is it only abusive when other advantages get thrown on it?

 

For the record my fix to the DS problem is to only charge +1/2 and then give a +1 advantage if the power is abusive (similar to AF)

 

In my games, I haven't run into any abuses because my players are fair and understand game balance. They also understand that whatever's good for the players is good for the villains also.

 

On a completely different tangent, I rebuilt the Ruler of Crime from Enemies International using 5e rules and didn't particularly care for the increase of cost for his Damage Shield.

 

FYI, I like the +1/2 and +1 advantage you brought up. I don't know if I'll use it in my campaign but I like it. I assume you mean the +1/2 turns into a +1 advantage, not add a +1 advantage. If anything, I feel Penetrating with Killing Attacks is abusive at a mere +1/2.

[JmOz]

No I ment add a +1 if the construct is abusive, look at AF for an example of what I mean (and a good general guideline)

[Talon]

I'd definitely recommend using the same rules as for AF, to reduce confusion and differing interpretations of "abusive".

[melessqr]

Tangentially relevent question...

 

Under the current rules, since you have to have Continuous on a Damage Shield, which precludes getting Perisistant... How do you build an Always On Damage Shield?

 

Melessqr

[Monolith]

Re: Tangentially relevent question...

 

Originally posted by melessqr

Under the current rules, since you have to have Continuous on a Damage Shield, which precludes getting Perisistant... How do you build an Always On Damage Shield?

The rules do not state that a Constant power cannot be Persistent. Persistent, buy its very nature, can only be put on Constant powers which have the 0 END Advantage.

[melessqr]

Ok... that's what I thought... But I could have sworn that when I tried to put Persistant on an EB I'd made Constant, the Persistant advantage had been removed from the list of choices in Hero Designer.

 

I'll look again after I get home.

 

Melessqr

[Monolith]

Originally posted by melessqr

Ok... that's what I thought... But I could have sworn that when I tried to put Persistant on an EB I'd made Constant, the Persistant advantage had been removed from the list of choices in Hero Designer.

 

I'll look again after I get home.

You might have forgotten to put the 0 END on it first. In Hero Designer you must do things in the correct sequence in order for all the Advantages and Limitations to show up correctly.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Re: Tangentially relevent question...

 

Originally posted by melessqr

Under the current rules, since you have to have Continuous on a Damage Shield, which precludes getting Perisistant... How do you build an Always On Damage Shield?

 

I don't see anything in the rules that precludes a Continuous Power from also being Persistent. I think the line about being wary of Persistent attack Powers really is intended to more reflect active attack ones. Nobody wants to put up with a Continuous, Persistent, 0-END BODY Drain. Damage Shield's offensive capacity, though, is inherently easy to avoid, by simply avoiding HTH range with the character with DS. As written, you'd need to purchase both Advantages for an Always On Damage Shield, before applying the "Always On" Limitation.

 

EDIT: Monolith beat me to responding.

[dugfromthearth]

my thoughts:

 

damage shield should not be purchasable with autofire. Or since autofire is doubled for attacks with special to hits (like AOE) it should be doubled again for attacks with no to hit (ie damage shield) so that autofire with damage shield is a +2 advantage.

 

penetrating is not under priced or too powerful. It is similar to flashes and mental attacks. The defense against it is dirt cheap. The problem is that most players don't buy a defense against it.

 

buy 3pd/3ed resistant hardened and you will stop most penetrating attacks. That costs what, 3pts?

 

It is a bogus argument to complain that an attack is overpowered simply because people don't buy the very cheap defense against it.

 

If you have a tough time justifying why your character should have hardened defenses, don't. Oculon had alien eyeballs implanted into his head and his DEX suddenly went to 23 (higher then normal human maximum) and his SPD went to 6 (also higher then normal human maximum). If you don't agonize over explaining why your character has super DEX and SPD, don't agonize over why your character has minimal hardened defenses.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

If you have a tough time justifying why your character should have hardened defenses, don't. Oculon had alien eyeballs implanted into his head and his DEX suddenly went to 23 (higher then normal human maximum) and his SPD went to 6 (also higher then normal human maximum). If you don't agonize over explaining why your character has super DEX and SPD, don't agonize over why your character has minimal hardened defenses.

Just as a quick point of fact, in the Champions Universe superhuman for DEX is 31+ and for SPD is 8+. Anything below those numbers are within the realm of "normal" for characters.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

penetrating is not under priced or too powerful. It is similar to flashes and mental attacks. The defense against it is dirt cheap. The problem is that most players don't buy a defense against it.

 

My personal feeling is that Penetrating is not under- or over-priced, but rather that in some campaigns, it (and AP) show up far, far too often. This forces people to buy Hardened defenses to cope, which means more points have to be allocated there, which people find annoying.

 

Maybe it's the damn Wolverine fetish still lingering on. Most players (thankfully) aren't horribly attracted to the idea of attack powers that do enough BODY to disintegrate battleships (i.e., high-dice KAs), but many are attracted to the idea of a smaller attack that is potentially lethal - or at least significantly damaging - to virtually anyone. That's fine, I suppose... but not if everyone has that sort of attack.

 

I've seen campaigns in which 4 of 5 PCs had at least one AP or Penetrating attack (KA or EB), either as their primary attack or as a Multipower slot. Short, Hairy Mutant-Man had his Penetrating HKA claws, Power Armor Man had his AP RKA, Magic Woman had her AP EB and Speed Man had his Autofire Penetrating HA. Sucks to be 3/4 of the non-mastervillains written up in the published HERO products if you run into that team, for sure! Pretty soon everyone from Firewing to Foxbat to even Bulldozer, Green Dragon and Cheshire Cat are sporting Hardened Defenses. Lotsa tough-skinned folk out there, I guess.

 

Even worse, I've seen and been in campaigns in which every single villain had an AP or Penetrating attack. Even the flying brick has Penetrating STR. Pretty soon, characters like Speed Man, Magic Woman and Speed Man start getting game stats more appropriate for Turtle Man, Abrams Tank Man and Spent-Uranium Woman.

 

AP and Penetrating should be unusual, not par-for-the-course - most EBs and KAs should be just that. When they're common, after awhile the players then start purchasing Hardened on their defenses as a matter of course... and then the double-AP or AP, Penetrating attacks start showing up... it becomes an arms race.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Monolith

Just as a quick point of fact, in the Champions Universe superhuman for DEX is 31+ and for SPD is 8+. Anything below those numbers are within the realm of "normal" for characters.

 

Technically true, but SPD 6 and DEX 26 would still surpass 99% of the Navy SEALs, master martial artists and Olympic athletes out there. The Speed doesn't bother me - it doesn't take much effort to look at something, after all - but it is kinda odd that Oculon has better agility and eye-hand coordination than Michael Jordan did in his prime. Lightning Reflexes for optic attacks might have been more appropriate... but it wouldn't have been as cost-effective, given that you'd also have to buy DCV levels to keep him from being a sitting duck.

 

Ah, well. Suspension of disbelief. Game mechanics are never perfect when applied to reality, and to expect them to be so for a superhero game is definitely a folly.

[Monolith]

Originally posted by JeffreyWKramer

Technically true, but SPD 6 and DEX 26 would still surpass 99% of the Navy SEALs, master martial artists and Olympic athletes out there. The Speed doesn't bother me - it doesn't take much effort to look at something, after all - but it is kinda odd that Oculon has better agility and eye-hand coordination than Michael Jordan did in his prime.

You are making an assumption here though. Who says Navy SEALS are not higher than 20 DEX? Who says Olympic athletes are not higher than 20? Who says Michael Jordan does not have a 27 DEX, or did in his prime anyway?

 

While it is true that most people will never exceed a 20 stat in the CU, most of the exceptional people you have mentioned will. Most common people just do not want to put in the extra time and training to truely excel. Some of the VIPER combat specialists in the book have 18 to 20 DEX scores, and they are not pushed to excel at the same level as many superheroes would be.

 

Now it is true that genre plays a big part in the game, but nearly every character in the CU has a 20 DEX. Those who are lower than that either either mentalists or considered to be slow and clumsy, like Grond. If I were playing a character who was once a Navy SEAL, you can bet he would have at least a 24 DEX, and possibly even higher. Because in the CU there is not 20 cap limit.

[JeffreyWKramer]

Originally posted by Monolith

You are making an assumption here though. Who says Navy SEALS are not higher than 20 DEX? Who says Olympic athletes are not higher than 20?

 

Well, I didn't bring up the 20 limit, but the write-ups for top-line agents/military sorts in the published books don't give them Oculon-level SPD/DEX. The higher-quality VIPER sorts, for example, are roughly on par with the average members of elite Special Forces units, but they don't have SPD/DEX on par with Foxbat.

 

Now the very *best* SEALs, yeah, they would be at that level. Maybe Jordan would be, too, though I really doubt he has that much an agility/reaction time/coordination advantage over the average SEAL or Ranger (though he has a lot more 2-point CSL levels in throwing). I did note in my post that the cited scores beat out 99% of the elite, though (pro athletes, special forces, etc.), and I still stand by that.

[Fuzzy Gnome]

Re: Tangentially relevent question...

 

Originally posted by melessqr

Under the current rules, since you have to have Continuous on a Damage Shield, which precludes getting Perisistant... How do you build an Always On Damage Shield?

 

Melessqr

You have to have Continuous on a Damage Shield unless you make it Persistent. Persistent includes Continuous, at least in the context of Damage Shield.

[Tech]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

It is a bogus argument to complain that an attack is overpowered simply because people don't buy the very cheap defense against it.

 

If you have a tough time justifying why your character should have hardened defenses, don't. Oculon had alien eyeballs implanted into his head and his DEX suddenly went to 23 (higher then normal human maximum) and his SPD went to 6 (also higher then normal human maximum). If you don't agonize over explaining why your character has super DEX and SPD, don't agonize over why your character has minimal hardened defenses.

 

Interesting to have words put in my mouth... I don't recall giving any reasons for my stating why I feel Penetrating is overpriced. However, I will now put forth my opinion:

 

I feel that for a +1/2 advantage, a KA (and I center my opinion on KA, not normal attacks) is allowed to bypass Damage Resistance to an extent, somewhat of a low-level AVLD, Does BODY, which as I understand it is +2 1/2 advantage - I haven't looked it up because I don't use it in my campaign. I think a +3/4 or +1 advantage for Penetrating is more in balance. It seems to me that a lot of VIPER and CKC used Penetrating as a backdoor to hurt people even with Damage Resistance or Armor for the cost of Affects Desolid or Armor Piercing. I've altered Penetrating in my campaign to reflect things appropriately.

 

However, this digresses from the Damage Shield conversation. Hmmm... a +1 1/2 seems a bit too much for my tastes, JmOz but I will hypothetically try your idea while creating a test villain and see if I agree after building it.

 

Monolith, I give a hearty handclap to your reasoning about Dex's. Good stuff.

[dugfromthearth]

I wasn't referring to you in general about the bogus argument. I thought you were asking for comments about why people thought DS was priced right or wrong and exploitable. I wasn't commenting on your specific comments.

 

I have seen the argument used in regards to mental attacks, flashes, drains, and so many other powers where the assumption is made that a 1d6 attack will be effective because most character's have 0 defense.

[TheEmerged]

RE: Penetrating. I also didn't say it was underpriced -- I said the way it can be used to overcome the self-limiting aspects of a high-advantage-low-base power was the "real" reason one troublesome version of Damage Shield I've seen was abusive.

 

Penetrating was made a Stop Sign advantage under 5th Edition, a change I'm completely behind. It fits the litmus test -- something that can cause problems a newbie GM might not be prepared for. But it's worth +1/2 almost exactly.

[Grailknight]

Damage Shield isn't abusive at the +1/2 level anymore than any other power is. Abuse comes when lots of other advantages are piled onto the power. Personally, I've never run into any one who would rule that AF on DS would hit with all the shots fired. The character with the DS didn't make an attack roll so the DS should only do once per time the attacker hits it.

[JmOz]

My rule about AF on DS is that it just changes the to hit. Let me explain, if the character who is trying to hit makes it by 3 he would get affected twice (As per normal AF rules, every 2 the attack is sussesful is a +1 attack)