Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

[Blau Stern]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

No, I mean it's needed from the point of view of the people, specifically the people doing the actual work. The Emperor can think whatever he wants, the people are the ones holding the opinions that matter. It's the same thing as the power of a GM: who gives the GM that power? The players. If the players decide they've had enough, the GM loses all of his powers.

[Greywind]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Seems to me Palpatine only lost his power when he threatened the well-being of one person. The people didn't have a whole lot of say in his downfall.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

That's because he tried being a legitimate rule rather than only ruling through fear and oppression. More to the point: there was still a rebellion, so what little oppression he did exorcise still got him tossed down a tube.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

The difference between the draft and the creation of a Death Star is that the draft is actually needed' date=' unlike the Death Star, and [b']most of the people drafted would have served anyway[/b]. The draft personnel also aren't typically called upon to commit genocide either.

 

I call complete and utter BS. I don't even have words...

[Blau Stern]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Smaller communities tend to want to help each other more and if that means serving said community by joining the incredibly small military doesn't sound like that bad an idea.

 

Keep in mind "most" =/= "all". Most = <50%. Further exacerbated by the fact that you don't get to vote in some places, unless you serve.

[Gary Miles]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

But the Pyramids weren't built by slave labor

 

[Blau Stern]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I wasn't going to say it was volunteers helping out their god-king..... but it was volunteers helping out their god-king.

 

He brought the rain, the harvest, and the sun. In exchange, the peasants built him a fancy house for his corpse.

 

And this is why I think religion is silly, but I'm not about to disrespect it any further than that, because I'm not that big a jerk.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

The difference between the draft and the creation of a Death Star is that the draft is actually needed' date=' unlike the Death Star, and most of the people drafted would have served anyway. The draft personnel also aren't typically called upon to commit genocide either.[/quote']

 

The Draft applied on both sides of many wars. One side was "wrong", at least according to history. It doesn't seem all that unlikely that many in the Empire believed that it was doing the right thing, against impossible odds, and had been since those Clone Wars. Those Separatists must be stopped - changing their name to the Rebellion doesn't change the fact they're the same Separatists who so challenged our beloved Republic (now the Empire). They have to be stopped, and any right-thinking person would GLADLY volunteer. Don't you know there's a war on?

 

If "most of the people" would serve without the draft, why not rely on volunteers? The Swiss require military service from 100% of their male citizens [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland] with those unsuitable for direct military service serving in another capacity. Referendums have upheld this compulsory military service, so the majority of the population considers it appropriate, if not necessary, but with 5% of the Swiss military made up of professionals, and "the rest are male citizen conscripts", so that's 95% drafted. I'd say 95% is "most" by any definition.

 

So, sure, I can see the Empire conscripting workers to construct their arsenal, including the Death Star. I can see the general publis seeing anyone who spoke out against such conscription as unpatriotic at best and seditious Rebel Sympathizers, maybe even active separatists, at worst. They should be PROUD to serve! Don't they know there's a war on?

[Cassandra]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

We have to remember in World War Two there were those drafted, those who volunteered, and those who were true believers. The true believes made up the SS, those who commit the Genocide and the atrocities

 

I think it would be save to say that the Empire stormtroopers were true believes. It was easily because they were cloned.

 

"I choose to believe what I was programmed to believe!" A Robot on Futurama.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

We have to remember in World War Two there were those drafted' date=' those who volunteered, and those who were true believers. The true believes made up the SS, those who commit the Genocide and the atrocities[/quote']

 

Do we have to? It's so much easier to build up that righteous hatred for the other side if we paint them all as monsters in human form. As long as we know they're just the Bad Guys, we can blow them away secure in our own untarnished benevolence in doing so.

[Cassandra]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

All of our enemies have been monsters.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Well, of course - we are the heart of goodness, righteousness and purity, so our enemies can only be monsters!

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

All of our enemies have been monsters.

 

And sometimes that enemy is us!

[Cassandra]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Nope

 

We're just human

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Nope

 

We're just human

 

And so are our enemies. If they are monsters then so are we.

 

I wasn't contradicting you, just making a related observation.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

The Draft applied on both sides of many wars. One side was "wrong", at least according to history. It doesn't seem all that unlikely that many in the Empire believed that it was doing the right thing, against impossible odds, and had been since those Clone Wars. Those Separatists must be stopped - changing their name to the Rebellion doesn't change the fact they're the same Separatists who so challenged our beloved Republic (now the Empire). They have to be stopped, and any right-thinking person would GLADLY volunteer. Don't you know there's a war on?

 

If "most of the people" would serve without the draft, why not rely on volunteers? The Swiss require military service from 100% of their male citizens [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_of_Switzerland] with those unsuitable for direct military service serving in another capacity. Referendums have upheld this compulsory military service, so the majority of the population considers it appropriate, if not necessary, but with 5% of the Swiss military made up of professionals, and "the rest are male citizen conscripts", so that's 95% drafted. I'd say 95% is "most" by any definition.

 

So, sure, I can see the Empire conscripting workers to construct their arsenal, including the Death Star. I can see the general publis seeing anyone who spoke out against such conscription as unpatriotic at best and seditious Rebel Sympathizers, maybe even active separatists, at worst. They should be PROUD to serve! Don't they know there's a war on?

History is written by the victor, rarely has a morally superior force gone against monsters, it's nearly always been red vs blue. The separatists were destroyed, utterly, they are not the same as the rebellion, the rebellion were parts of the republic that realized "oh my god, Palpatine is a monster", part of the reason people hate the prequels is that it's morally ambiguous.

 

There are different benefits for being a professional than there is being a conscript. A conscript doesn't serve as long and doesn't go through quite as rigorous training, which is what most people (who are still willing to serve, but not for a long time) want.

 

I see most of the public recognizing that the Empire is evil, because of the stories of the republic. Why else would such a monolithic organization fail to quash the tiny rebellion?

 

Humans are the monsters.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Can you folks perhaps relate that side-tangent back to the main topic of the thread? Thanks.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

There are different benefits for being a professional than there is being a conscript. A conscript doesn't serve as long and doesn't go through quite as rigorous training' date=' which is what most people (who are still willing to serve, but not for a long time) want.[/quote']

 

If this were true, why would service need to be mandatory? If everyone is willing to serve, would they not all volunteer? Mandatory service is not about me believing I should serve - it is about me believing everyone should serve, and no one has the right to opt out.

 

To the main issue, I think the question, to me, is whether heroes set out to kill. I don't believe any mainstream Super with any extended publishing history has not had an enemy die (or appear to die) in combat. That's the risk taken by engaging in combat. But this question seems more, to me, whether the "Hero" would actively seek the death of his opponent by, among other examples, selecting a more lethal option than is needed to take the opponent down (Spidey knocking a robber's head off rather than webbing him up), or killing the defeated opponent to ensure he won't be a problem in the future. The Hero is the one who extends a hand to the defeated villain clinging to the edge of the cliff, all the time knowing, if the situation were reversed, the villain would be stomping on his fingers.

[Blau Stern]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

If this were true' date=' why would service need to be mandatory? If everyone is willing to serve, would they not all volunteer? Mandatory service is not about me believing I should serve - it is about me believing everyone should serve, and no one has the right to opt out.[/quote']Why wouldn't there be? The government decides everyone needs to serve, the people don't disagree, but they don't want to serve full time. How hard is that to get?

[phoenix240]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Look, its simple. Your character shouldn't kill because it makes the gm's sheets look messy when the scratch, erase or white the late villlain's name and write in the name of his vengeful (sibling, wife, cousin, fan club president. etc). This make the GM grumpy which can lead to more difficult adventures. Simple self interest.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Look' date=' its simple. Your character shouldn't kill because it makes the gm's sheets look messy when the scratch, erase or white the late villlain's name and write in the name of his vengeful (sibling, wife, cousin, fan club president. etc). This make the GM grumpy which can lead to more difficult adventures. Simple self interest.[/quote']

 

Pretty much. GMs don't particularly like to spend a couple hours or even half a day on a well-rounded writeup only to have it killed off in the same session they're introduced. They'll just tweak the stats, add a few nasty henchmen and say it's the more-powerful sibling/spouse with an axe to grind. Presumably that cosmic halberd that guy in Stronghold keeps yelling about.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Why wouldn't there be? The government decides everyone needs to serve' date=' the people don't disagree, but they don't want to serve full time. How hard is that to get?[/quote']

 

"The people" have had two referendums in recent decades to vote on whether mandatory service should continue. In one, there was a 77%+ vote to retain it. In the other, the percentage was lower, but enough. What gives that 77% of the population (doubtless including a significant portion of persons not required to serve - only males of certain ages are) the right to require those that don't agree that they are required to serve? And what would prevent the Empire from similarly requiring service from its citizens, potentially including conscripting experts to serve through military project design and implementation?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Pretty much. GMs don't particularly like to spend a couple hours or even half a day on a well-rounded writeup only to have it killed off in the same session they're introduced. They'll just tweak the stats' date=' add a few nasty henchmen and say it's the more-powerful sibling/spouse with an axe to grind. Presumably that cosmic halberd that guy in Stronghold keeps yelling about.[/quote']

 

Players don't like it that much either - and if life is cheap for the villains, why should the heroes have any greater life expectancy?

[phoenix240]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Pretty much. GMs don't particularly like to spend a couple hours or even half a day on a well-rounded writeup only to have it killed off in the same session they're introduced. They'll just tweak the stats' date=' add a few nasty henchmen and say it's the more-powerful sibling/spouse with an axe to grind. Presumably that cosmic halberd that guy in Stronghold keeps yelling about.[/quote']

 

Well, I was trying to be funny honestly. As a GM I don't expect NPC, particularly antagonists not to die off at some point either due to PC actions or just storyline. I mean, I'm not going to shield PCs from dire consequnces if they come up I don't expect that of NPC either. And if I do recycle, I try to make it because its a fitting and interesting continuation of the narrative not just "revenge" from my carefully tailor NPC dying. Honestly, I think that's a symptom and sign that you're getting too attached to your creations.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Well' date=' I was trying to be funny honestly. As a GM I don't expect NPC, particularly antagonists not to die off at some point either due to PC actions or just storyline. I mean, I'm not going to shield PCs from dire consequnces if they come up I don't expect that of NPC either. And if I do recycle, I try to make it because its a fitting and interesting continuation of the narrative not just "revenge" from my carefully tailor NPC dying. Honestly, I think that's a symptom and sign that you're getting too attached to your creations.[/quote']

 

Well, I was referring more to a certain "Killer PC" mentality that pops up sometimes--players that just decide that killing the bad guys is the solution in most if not all cases. It can be frustrating, in that instance, to write up villains you know will get bumped off. I'm sure some GMs would be tempted to just keep amping up and recycling writeups in that scenario.