Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

[Erkenfresh]

I had my heroes face up against the Ultimates in my last gaming session. One of the heroes is essentially a robot with no emotion, and more importantly, no code vs killing. The fight drug out a while and all the players were KO'd except the robot. He manages to KO the last Ultimate. He's really sick of these guys and decides to just finish them all off right there. Now I could say "no I won't let you" but I really don't mind letting my players have some freedom. It's within his character after all, maybe not very heroic, but whatever.

 

Then I remember a blurb about Radium, a member of the Ultimates that's basically a nuclear bomb. When he dies, he explodes like a mini-nuke! The team comes out of their KO just in time to run to their vehicle and escape before getting disintegrated!

 

It was just funny to me that the only character they've ever killed was a ticking time bomb.

 

Maybe some of the Ultimates survived, I especially liked Binder and his glue gun... He'll certainly have a vendetta now.

[Alibear]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Apart from the fact that the robot dude is now a murderer... what could go wrong?

[Major Tom 2009]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Apart from the fact that the robot dude is now a murderer... what could go wrong?

 

 

Welll...Mechanon could show up and make like Darth Vader with Luke Skywalker ("Come, join me, my cybernetic son --

it is your destiny.") ().

 

 

 

Major Tom 2009

[Tasha]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I had my heroes face up against the Ultimates in my last gaming session. One of the heroes is essentially a robot with no emotion, and more importantly, no code vs killing. The fight drug out a while and all the players were KO'd except the robot. He manages to KO the last Ultimate. He's really sick of these guys and decides to just finish them all off right there. Now I could say "no I won't let you" but I really don't mind letting my players have some freedom. It's within his character after all, maybe not very heroic, but whatever.

 

Then I remember a blurb about Radium, a member of the Ultimates that's basically a nuclear bomb. When he dies, he explodes like a mini-nuke! The team comes out of their KO just in time to run to their vehicle and escape before getting disintegrated!

 

It was just funny to me that the only character they've ever killed was a ticking time bomb.

 

Maybe some of the Ultimates survived, I especially liked Binder and his glue gun... He'll certainly have a vendetta now.

 

I tend to make it clear to my players that no CvK is still a regular person's "Reluctance to Kill". I would have also reminded the player that killing the Villain would make them a murderer that is really no better than the Villains. You could do a lot with a surveillance camera that just happened to see the action. Perhaps not seeing anything but the hand that blasted Radium into oblivion.

 

Also, it sounds like you might have had the Ultimates menace the city one too many times. It's really best to allow the PC's to defeat the Villains (it may take more than one adventure to do so) and then keep the Villains on ice for awhile. Because if Players think that Jail is a revolving door, that's when they start to think about killing/maiming the Villains.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Kingdom Come by DC Comics had a really great story about Code vs. Killing and think every Superhero fan should read it.

 

IMOHO

http://www.comicvine.com/kingdom-come-kingdome-come/37-152730/

 

QM

[Martin2]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I had my heroes face up against the Ultimates in my last gaming session. One of the heroes is essentially a robot with no emotion, and more importantly, no code vs killing. The fight drug out a while and all the players were KO'd except the robot. He manages to KO the last Ultimate. He's really sick of these guys and decides to just finish them all off right there. Now I could say "no I won't let you" but I really don't mind letting my players have some freedom. It's within his character after all, maybe not very heroic, but whatever.

 

Then I remember a blurb about Radium, a member of the Ultimates that's basically a nuclear bomb. When he dies, he explodes like a mini-nuke! The team comes out of their KO just in time to run to their vehicle and escape before getting disintegrated!

 

It was just funny to me that the only character they've ever killed was a ticking time bomb.

 

Maybe some of the Ultimates survived, I especially liked Binder and his glue gun... He'll certainly have a vendetta now.

 

Robot and no CvK does not mean you can kill people in cold blood.

 

I would simply tell the player that killing villains in cold blood is not a heroic thing and has consequences for the player and the group.

 

Do they have any government backing or trying to keep a heroic idea going?

 

If they have it is not good having a machine that goes around killing when ever it wants and the government and his own group will want to stop him in the end if the game is to be a heroic game and not a villain based game.

 

If he wants to continue with no CvK = I can murder when ever I feel like it because I am a robot his character will become a NPC and he can play another character with less of a cold blooded killer outlook or leave the game.

 

But then I have explained this to my players that I can put up with accidental death but killing people in cold blood is a direction I do not want to go in.

 

If the players are not aware of your game ideals they will continue killing and ruin your game for you and therefore for them.

 

This is not D&D where you kill everything and it does not matter. You have different game rules and as a GM you have to make it clear early on.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Oh, no, in D+D it still matters. If you kill the wrong guy, you can run into a WORLD of trouble.

 

The real problem is that your player created a character who was a jackass and you didn't see far enough ahead to see the consequences. In four color games, all heroes generally have a reluctance to kill worth zero points.

 

You always need to think about what you let in before you put yourself in situations.

.

[Balabanto]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

The problem is that in comic books, jail IS a revolving door. If I don't need a villain, and he gets arrested, he stays in jail. If I do need a villain, he gets out of jail. One time, a villain stayed in jail for eleven years. And players were just like "When is he gonna get out?" And my thought was...well...he's gonna get out when a plot arises that has need of this NPC. He's not bulletproof, so he's not going to just try and escape and get killed by some prison guard with an advanced rifle, he's in a superprison, so he's just going to wait.

 

The problem, Tasha, isn't what you think it is here. The problem is players forgetting how comic books actually work, and turning things into a "Punisher-like" environment.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

He's really sick of these guys and decides to just finish them all off right there.... It's within his character after all' date=' maybe not very heroic, but whatever.[/quote']

 

I liked the way there were consequences for that action, Erkenfresh.

 

I've never been as convinced as some that killing can't be 'heroic,' though.

 

It's not very 'Four Color Super Heroic,' that's for sure. But if I were a super hero in a world where devastatingly powerful super villains recurrently escaped from custody after every time I stopped them, only to wreak more havoc once again, causing more property damage and probably loss of innocent lives, I might give a lot of thought to 'finishing off' those villains once and for all, if I found any of them unconscious at my feet after yet another battle.

 

And I'm not sure, under those circumstances and given those assumptions, doing so could not be considered 'heroic.'

[Balabanto]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Well, let me tell you something about the laws of the United States of America. You cannot be judge, jury, and executioner. Especially on a guy like Binder. Follow through with me here.

 

The guy is unconscious on your feet and incapacitated. He has no ability to do further harm. You kill him. Let me explain to you how this really works. You are now wanted by the law. The laws of most civilized nations do not allow systematic executions of helpless people. You will become a supervillain, because now that you've pretty much committed cold-blooded murder in the eyes of the law, your fellow superheroes will now hunt you down. This is the worst thing you could possibly want.

 

First of all, they have access to law enforcement and resources and will eventually find you, unless you are so much more powerful than everyone else around you that no one could stop you anyway.

 

Second of all, you're a robot, in this particular case. Do robots have rights? Well, if not, you're going to face the same situation, and be forcibly dismantled.

 

Third of all, take a look at the abilities of some of the people you're killing. Binder and Slick have absolutely no lethal abilities whatsoever. All they do is entangle people and make things slippery and awkward.

 

Imagine this one:

 

Prosecutor: So why did you kill the guy with a glue gun?

 

Robot: He was a legitimate threat to society. He continued to escape from prison.

 

Prosecutor: How many lethal abilities did the glue gun have?

 

Robot: I don't know.

 

Prosecutor: Let the record show that this gun has absolutely no ability to kill anyone whatsoever.

 

Your chances of getting out of this one with a half-decent prosecutor are, quite frankly, awful. This is pretty much two counts of Murder one, which is 50 to life, even if they don't dismantle the robot.

 

This is why you don't kill people in superhero games. The law will burn you. Hard.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Then I remember a blurb about Radium' date=' a member of the Ultimates that's basically a nuclear bomb. When he dies, he explodes like a mini-nuke![/quote']

 

Where were they fighting the Ultimates? Were they in a populated area or in the middle of nowhere? If the former, that's a much bigger deal because the character's actions would be endangering the lives of not only his teammates but everybody else in the area. Even if a character lacks a CvK, doing something that irresponsible is still a no-no.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Well' date=' let me tell you something about the laws of the United States of America. You cannot be judge, jury, and executioner. [/quote']

 

No need, Balabanto, I'm an attorney. In any event, I wasn't making a legal argument when I suggested that administering a killing stroke might be "heroic," but rather a moral one. "Heroic" isn't a legal concept.

 

The guy is unconscious on your feet and incapacitated. He has no ability to do further harm. You kill him. Let me explain to you how this really works. You are now wanted by the law....You will become a supervillain' date=' because now that you've pretty much committed cold-blooded murder in the eyes of the law, your fellow superheroes will now hunt you down.[/quote']

 

I'm not as convinced about the inevitability of this outcome as you may be. If instead of a super-villain, the person lying prone at the hero's feet were Osama bin Laden, I think it would be politically tricky for any prosecutor even to bring charges against the hero, and, even if the case went to trial, I doubt any American jury would vote unanimously to convict. Under those circumstances, would "your fellow superheroes....hunt you down." I doubt it.

 

Further, just because an act is prohibited by law doesn't necessarily mean that such an act is wrong in every circumstance, or that the application of the law to punish every such violation is necessarily just. Today is the anniversary of the verdict in the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trail. I doubt many Americans today would think that convicting a high school science teacher of a crime for teaching the Theory of Evolution in school was right or just.

 

I read an interview online yesterday with Antonin Scalia who asserted that, as a Supreme Court Justice, he has regularly been compelled by his interpretation of the Constitution to render legal opinions with which he doesn't necessarily sympathize based on the underlying facts. ("Good facts make bad law," as they say.)

 

The Law is many things. But among the things it is not is an absolute guide in every circumstance to what is Right or Just (or even Decent or Appropriate).

[Christopher]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I had my heroes face up against the Ultimates in my last gaming session. One of the heroes is essentially a robot with no emotion, and more importantly, no code vs killing. The fight drug out a while and all the players were KO'd except the robot. He manages to KO the last Ultimate. He's really sick of these guys and decides to just finish them all off right there. Now I could say "no I won't let you" but I really don't mind letting my players have some freedom. It's within his character after all, maybe not very heroic, but whatever.

 

Then I remember a blurb about Radium, a member of the Ultimates that's basically a nuclear bomb. When he dies, he explodes like a mini-nuke! The team comes out of their KO just in time to run to their vehicle and escape before getting disintegrated!

 

It was just funny to me that the only character they've ever killed was a ticking time bomb.

 

Maybe some of the Ultimates survived, I especially liked Binder and his glue gun... He'll certainly have a vendetta now.

Very nice way to deal with it.

 

But as others pointed out, you might want to establish that even he should not/cannot kill without repercussions.

 

Robot and no CvK does not mean you can kill people in cold blood.

I am quite good at making "true neutral"/"emotionless automaton" guys and still giving them a CvK.

Usually they fake being a hero, work with them or at least a law-organisation, so the current "operation procedures and groundrules" forbid killing in cold blood.

 

This is not D&D where you kill everything and it does not matter. You have different game rules and as a GM you have to make it clear early on.

More precisely:

This isn't a heroic fantasy world, where villains and their mooks are supposed to die in combat.

Even in D&D cold blooded murder is still cold blooded murder. And not really an option for any good character.

 

I've never been as convinced as some that killing can't be 'heroic,' though.

 

It's not very 'Four Color Super Heroic,' that's for sure. But if I were a super hero in a world where devastatingly powerful super villains recurrently escaped from custody after every time I stopped them, only to wreak more havoc once again, causing more property damage and probably loss of innocent lives, I might give a lot of thought to 'finishing off' those villains once and for all, if I found any of them unconscious at my feet after yet another battle.

When you think that way, four color superheroic worlds just aren't the thing for you.

 

No mater how unlogical it sounds that batman does not kill the joker after the thousand life he destroyed - he simply does not.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

When you think that way, four color superheroic worlds just aren't the thing for you.

 

No mater how unlogical it sounds that batman does not kill the joker after the thousand life he destroyed - he simply does not.

 

Whereas, I think that the decision of "do you kill the Joker?" is one that each character in a superheroic world has to make for himself.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Whereas' date=' I think that the decision of "do you kill the Joker?" is one that each character in a superheroic world has to make for himself.[/quote']

 

Which is fine, as long as the character is willing to deal with the possible repercussions.

 

If the GM has said that you're playing in a Silver Age hero game, the consequences will likely be more severe than in an Iron Age game.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Whereas' date=' I think that the decision of "do you kill the Joker?" is one that each character in a superheroic world has to make for himself.[/quote']

 

How true to the surce material is it if a significant majority of characters decide they will kill the Joker? It depends on the genre tropes adopted for the game. If half the players want a four colour Supers environment and the other half want a darker "eye for an eye" game, you've got a game that is probably not going to be a lot of fun. It needs to be two games, one of four colour Supers and a second of vigilante justice Supers.

 

If the two cross paths, it's likely to be between a very strained co-operation for the greater good, or as enemies.

[Ravor]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

My question is, what were the baddies doing? Four Color crime where no-one actually gets hurt and everyone gets a magical rainbow unicorn at the end of the story or more gritty "modern Joker-esk" crime where people *do* get maimed and killed on a regular basis?

 

Because in my opinion, as much as I enjoy Batman, after the nyth time he merely carted Joker back to his paper cage the blood of the innocents has started to stain both of their souls. You don't allow a rabid dog to live and even if a prosecutor would be foolish enough to bring charges there is no-way a jury would ever convict.

 

*EDIT*

 

Because remember, in the ol' days, Bats even had a cure for Joker-gas.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Nothing heroic about killing unconscious, defenseless people. That's just cold-blooded murder.

 

Hopefully, Mr. Roboto's teammates turned him in to the authorities as soon as they were able.

[Laundry Knight]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I admit. In real life, I would kill the Joker, and I am a fairly passive person, but when running a game, I prefer to maintain the genre feel, and in the supers genre, I definitely prefer a more four color feel. I don't want super heroes killing, and to be fair, most of my villains are thieves, troublemakers, mercenaries, or megalomaniacs, and to be fair, I stay away from sadistic killers.

[Zen Archer]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Because in my opinion, as much as I enjoy Batman, after the nyth time he merely carted Joker back to his paper cage the blood of the innocents has started to stain both of their souls. You don't allow a rabid dog to live and even if a prosecutor would be foolish enough to bring charges there is no-way a jury would ever convict.

 

I've said it before, but I think it's worth repeating: The problem in this situation is not Batman, it's a legal system that won't adjust its views on the death penalty.

 

In a meta sense, it's also a problem when your villains get to be extremely popular, but that's more of a digression from the topic.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I've said it before, but I think it's worth repeating: The problem in this situation is not Batman, it's a legal system that won't adjust its views on the death penalty.

 

In a meta sense, it's also a problem when your villains get to be extremely popular, but that's more of a digression from the topic.

 

Alternately, the problem was when they started letting the Joker succeed. Let him plot and plan and set-up his mass-murder plots ... that's fine. But always have him be STOPPED.

[Cassandra]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

The Players and the GM should agree beforehand on the kind of campaign they are going to run. A GM should never put their players in a situation where they would have to violate their Psychological Limitations. It's one thing to tempt them ("There are at least six different ways I could stop you" as Superman once said to President Luthor on Justice League).

 

I think the Dark Knight gives up a good example of a Code versus Killing. The Joker's real power was he wasn't afraid to die, even welcomed it. Batman who is incorruptiblable, would not kill him.

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

Nothing heroic about killing unconscious' date=' defenseless people. That's just cold-blooded murder.[/quote']

 

 

This is one of those statements that seems axiomatic initially, but which is actually subject to many fact-specific exceptions when given more scrutiny.

 

One fictional example of such an exception would be Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star at the conclusion of Star Wars. That act was presented as heroic in the film. But, as been pointed out endlessly over the years, Luke doubtlessly would've killed many "unconscious" (if only sleeping) and "defenseless" people as well in the process. Maybe tens of thousands of them.

 

I suspect that citing real world examples would only engender tangential debate about the perceived morality of various historical events. So I won't do that here. But if Hitler had not committed suicide in April 1945, and instead a scout from the Red Army had snuck into the Fuhrer Bunker and killed Hitler in his sleep with a singe pistol shot to the head, wouldn't that've been deemed "heroic," despite Hitler being "unconscious" and "defenseless" at the time?

[Guest dan2448]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

I admit. In real life' date=' I would kill the Joker, and I am a fairly passive person, but when running a game, I prefer to maintain the genre feel, and in the supers genre, I definitely prefer a more four color feel. [/quote']

 

This statement echoes my feelings as well, notwithstanding my prior posts analyzing whether it may be "heroic" in limited instances to kill defenseless villains.

[Clonus]

Re: Why Your Heroes Shouldn't Kill

 

This is one of those statements that seems axiomatic initially, but which is actually subject to many fact-specific exceptions when given more scrutiny.

 

One fictional example of such an exception would be Luke Skywalker blowing up the Death Star at the conclusion of Star Wars. That act was presented as heroic in the film. But, as been pointed out endlessly over the years, Luke doubtlessly would've killed many "unconscious" (if only sleeping) and "defenseless" people as well in the process. Maybe tens of thousands of them.

 

They weren't defenceless. They were military personnel in the most powerful war machine in the galaxy. You can't get more defended than that. Similarly, Hitler in his bunker is not defenceless. His heavily guarded bunker is a defence. It's getting past those defences that makes your hypothetical assassin a hero. Shooting Hitler after he's been captured? Not so much.

 

And apart from that, serving military personnel operate by a different set of rules than cops, and cops operate by a different set from rules from public-spirited citizens with eccentric fashion sense.