Resource Pools in Star Hero

[Erkenfresh]

I'm planning on starting a new Star Hero campaign soon and I'm trying to think through some of the details. Previously, one oddity was how cheap personal equipment was compared to ship stuff. You could easily afford the best hand weaponry that was commonly available well before any type of ship upgrade. That is, however, quite realistic as well. In my prior campaign, there was a bit of sameness amongst the part members as well since they could all pick up that same autofire laser rifle and fire away with something like a 1-point WF skill.

 

I'd like to give players a reason to choose things like martial arts melee styles or psionic powers. I think resource pools (as they were called in 5ed) would be the way to go. This way if you spend points on a Telekenesis power, you might not spend as much on resource points and thus have to stick with a crummy laser pistol instead of the uber rifle.

 

I'm curious if anyone has used this in their Star Hero campaigns or if this sort of thing is really only useful in Dark Champions where the concept was originally invented? Has it worked out well or did it just add more drudgery for your players?

[Tasha]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I'm planning on starting a new Star Hero campaign soon and I'm trying to think through some of the details. Previously, one oddity was how cheap personal equipment was compared to ship stuff. You could easily afford the best hand weaponry that was commonly available well before any type of ship upgrade. That is, however, quite realistic as well. In my prior campaign, there was a bit of sameness amongst the part members as well since they could all pick up that same autofire laser rifle and fire away with something like a 1-point WF skill.

 

I'd like to give players a reason to choose things like martial arts melee styles or psionic powers. I think resource pools (as they were called in 5ed) would be the way to go. This way if you spend points on a Telekenesis power, you might not spend as much on resource points and thus have to stick with a crummy laser pistol instead of the uber rifle.

 

I'm curious if anyone has used this in their Star Hero campaigns or if this sort of thing is really only useful in Dark Champions where the concept was originally invented? Has it worked out well or did it just add more drudgery for your players?

 

The Advanced Player's guide (vol 1) has the rules for Resource Pools and how to handle them. I did something similar for my Star Hero and Fantasy Hero games. I only used it for the initial load out. Once play started I allowed them to buy equipment as usual. That way I could rein in their purchases pre game. After the game started certain Military hardware was only available from certain sources if at all. (ie I could control what they bought though Availability and lack of money).

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I'm planning on starting a new Star Hero campaign soon and I'm trying to think through some of the details. Previously, one oddity was how cheap personal equipment was compared to ship stuff. You could easily afford the best hand weaponry that was commonly available well before any type of ship upgrade. That is, however, quite realistic as well. In my prior campaign, there was a bit of sameness amongst the part members as well since they could all pick up that same autofire laser rifle and fire away with something like a 1-point WF skill.

 

I'd like to give players a reason to choose things like martial arts melee styles or psionic powers. I think resource pools (as they were called in 5ed) would be the way to go. This way if you spend points on a Telekenesis power, you might not spend as much on resource points and thus have to stick with a crummy laser pistol instead of the uber rifle.

 

I'm curious if anyone has used this in their Star Hero campaigns or if this sort of thing is really only useful in Dark Champions where the concept was originally invented? Has it worked out well or did it just add more drudgery for your players?

 

I ran into an unexpected problem with Resource Pools: my players couldn't understand how they worked!

 

They were mostly veteran Hero System users who'd been playing since 1st edition, and they knew the game inside-out. But for whatever reason, Resource Pools stumped them and I was swamped with constant questions about what they could or couldn't do with their points, how much did things cost, did they need to spend points for this or that, ad nauseum... and it was all in the rules!

 

It didn't add drudgery for my players, but it made a lot more work for me and I still have no idea why. The rules for Resource Pools are f*****g simple. My advice is to go ahead and use them, but make sure the players understand them. And if they don't, tell them to read the book until they do.

[Tasha]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I ran into an unexpected problem with Resource Pools: my players couldn't understand how they worked!

 

They were mostly veteran Hero System users who'd been playing since 1st edition, and they knew the game inside-out. But for whatever reason, Resource Pools stumped them and I was swamped with constant questions about what they could or couldn't do with their points, how much did things cost, did they need to spend points for this or that, ad nauseum... and it was all in the rules!

 

It didn't add drudgery for my players, but it made a lot more work for me and I still have no idea why. The rules for Resource Pools are f*****g simple. My advice is to go ahead and use them, but make sure the players understand them. And if they don't, tell them to read the book until they do.

 

That's why I suggest that they only be used at Character generation. This system tends to create players who obsess over point values for anything. Eventually that gets in the way of just playing the game. Keeping equipment in check is a Roleplaying issue. Yeah, I might trot the bad guys out with the Fusion Gun Man Portables, and the PC's may get their hands on them. It is up to me to limit where/when they can use them.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I leave it up to the player as to what types of weapons and equipment they use. If they can afford it, or get ahold of it, far be it for me to deny them. If I created it for the campaign, then I'm already ok with the characters getting ahold of it. The GM needs to work these things out before he/she even starts the campaign. If you don't want the players to use it, don't include it. That's my motto.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

It's always easy to run into a scenario where you want the opponents to have equipment to make a fight challenging, but you don't want the players to just loot their stuff for future use. I realize you can limit ammo or have the weapon stolen or destroyed, but that can get contrived too. Using resource pools, you can have that heavy weapons guy who spent a bunch of points just to get good equipment versus someone taking a different path and going for high STR and melee combat. Truthfully, why bother paying points for psionic "choking" attack when a rifle can do more damage without costing any points at all? Is it just for those times when you simply can't get your hands on any weaponry?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

It's always easy to run into a scenario where you want the opponents to have equipment to make a fight challenging' date=' but you don't want the players to just loot their stuff for future use. I realize you can limit ammo or have the weapon stolen or destroyed, but that can get contrived too. Using resource pools, you can have that heavy weapons guy who spent a bunch of points just to get good equipment versus someone taking a different path and going for high STR and melee combat. Truthfully, why bother paying points for psionic "choking" attack when a rifle can do more damage without costing any points at all? Is it just for those times when you simply can't get your hands on any weaponry?[/quote']

 

I've encountered a lot of players who were downright paranoid about being disarmed or otherwise rendered defenseless. It's usually best for the GM to be up-front about this before the campaign starts. In my campaign I handle this situation and alleviate the players' concerns in several ways:

 

1) Use the rules for Resource Pools, above and beyond the characters' basic point total, so that they can buy equipment after they've completed their character instead of spending their regular character points on it.

 

2) Make sure everyone knows the campaign setting has lots of areas with iron-clad weapons restrictions, where only authorized personnel will be carrying, and if the PCs aren't authorized (they don't have weapon permits) they won't have weapons on them.

 

3) Encourage them to spend those points they saved on "free" equipment for self-defense abilities like martial arts, combat luck, etc. There are no psionics in my campaign, but a Martial Grab & Crush combo costs 7pts. It may not be quite as reliable as a "psi-choke", but it probably does more damage....

[Escafarc]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I found that RPPs help to change things away from the "dungeon crawl"/weapons race mentality.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I found that RPPs help to change things away from the "dungeon crawl"/weapons race mentality.

 

Yes, that's a very good point too. Once the players get their hands on a 3d6 autofire 5 weapon, they'll be looking for a 3 1/2d6 and so on. I guess this is what I love about running superheroic campaigns. No loot. They find unique interesting things that are plot points, but you don't have to worry about exactly how much cash they have. I think RPP is a way to bring some of that into a heroic campaign as well.

 

Dark Champions mentions starting people with a 60 point pool and it costs 1 point for each extra 5 points in the pool. This seems a little bit too lenient in my opinion, as 60 points in Star Hero gets you pretty much the best stuff right off. Any thoughts on where to set the starting value and cost?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

It's always easy to run into a scenario where you want the opponents to have equipment to make a fight challenging' date=' but you don't want the players to just loot their stuff for future use. I realize you can limit ammo or have the weapon stolen or destroyed, but that can get contrived too. Using resource pools, you can have that heavy weapons guy who spent a bunch of points just to get good equipment versus someone taking a different path and going for high STR and melee combat. Truthfully, why bother paying points for psionic "choking" attack when a rifle can do more damage without costing any points at all? Is it just for those times when you simply can't get your hands on any weaponry?[/quote']

 

I guess it depends on the types of players you have. One player in my Star Hero game was a cop/doctor who had pretty powerful Psionic capabilities. He got all his cop gear for free, including the burly Pit Bull blaster pistol (the Desert Eagle of blaster pistols) that did 3D6k (Pen) damage. Over time he actually began using his psionic abilities a lot more than all the nifty weapons and gadgets he eventually acquired. Advancement of psionics and ESPers became a core part of the character and I didn't have to push him in that direction at all. He went there on his own. Absolutely no need for me to deny his character access to heavy weaponry or special gadgets to force him to rely on his psionics. I treat all my campaigns this way. What ever way the player wants to take their character is fine with me, as long as it fits within the purview of the setting. The advancement and operation of their character is the one thing they have control over in the game, why would I wish to limit that as well?

[Christopher]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I'm planning on starting a new Star Hero campaign soon and I'm trying to think through some of the details. Previously, one oddity was how cheap personal equipment was compared to ship stuff. You could easily afford the best hand weaponry that was commonly available well before any type of ship upgrade. That is, however, quite realistic as well. In my prior campaign, there was a bit of sameness amongst the part members as well since they could all pick up that same autofire laser rifle and fire away with something like a 1-point WF skill.

 

I'd like to give players a reason to choose things like martial arts melee styles or psionic powers. I think resource pools (as they were called in 5ed) would be the way to go. This way if you spend points on a Telekenesis power, you might not spend as much on resource points and thus have to stick with a crummy laser pistol instead of the uber rifle.

 

I'm curious if anyone has used this in their Star Hero campaigns or if this sort of thing is really only useful in Dark Champions where the concept was originally invented? Has it worked out well or did it just add more drudgery for your players?

I am thinking about running a Star Trek game and I tend extremely towards using them. They solve most of the issues between "magician" (people who have to buy thier powers with character points) and "warriors" (those who use eqiupment).

On the one hand I will allow higher point levels, on the other I won't give free resource points. This allows "natural ability" heavy characters like changelings to work, while the well trained human has to spend points on the resource pool to have equipment.

 

Two things to keep in mind:

The loadout (how many points you can carry) can varry. From 1.5 times the pool too .5 time pool - depending on mission and situation (packing heavy for pure combat action or light to sneak your weapons in on a high soceity party).

The pools does not restrict them from "picking up" a weapon in the mission.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Cool that sounds exactly like my reasoning Chris. Do you go with a 60 point starting pool with 1 character point per 5 resource points? I'm thinking more like a 40 point start with 1 cp per 3 resource points would be more balanced. Any thoughts?

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Yes, that's a very good point too. Once the players get their hands on a 3d6 autofire 5 weapon, they'll be looking for a 3 1/2d6 and so on. I guess this is what I love about running superheroic campaigns. No loot. They find unique interesting things that are plot points, but you don't have to worry about exactly how much cash they have. I think RPP is a way to bring some of that into a heroic campaign as well.

 

Dark Champions mentions starting people with a 60 point pool and it costs 1 point for each extra 5 points in the pool. This seems a little bit too lenient in my opinion, as 60 points in Star Hero gets you pretty much the best stuff right off. Any thoughts on where to set the starting value and cost?

 

I went with a 50 point starting pool, but in my campaign, the "best stuff" is way over 60 points anyway, so that's not really the issue. Using the Improved Equipment Availability Perk is really the key to controlling what the characters have access to.

 

Street Level Equipment is a 3pt Perk: almost all characters have this, and for most of them, this gets them access to the basic equipment they need, like guns, ammo, and certain types of body armor.

 

Military Equipment is a 5pt Perk: characters with military connections, who really anticipate a need for military equipment, won't mind spending another 2pts for this, so they can get assault weapons, better ammo, and heavy armor.

 

Advanced Military Equipment is a 10pt Perk: I've yet to have a character sink this many points into a perk just so they can buy insanely expensive exotic equipment which will make them a priority target as soon as the enemy realizes they've got it. Still... smart missiles, power armor, and plasma grenades are really nice to have.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Also, you could fatten up the WF table some I suppose. It could have a dependency tree. But this might be more confusing than just using the resource pools. Do you require both resource pools AND weapon familiarities generally?

[Christopher]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Cool that sounds exactly like my reasoning Chris. Do you go with a 60 point starting pool with 1 character point per 5 resource points? I'm thinking more like a 40 point start with 1 cp per 3 resource points would be more balanced. Any thoughts?

Like I said I would give no free points, but higher starting points.

 

The default rules from APG I 191ff are:

60 Equipment Points. +5/1 CP*

10 Vehicle/Base Points +2/1 CP*

5 Follower/Contact Points +2/1 CP*

0 Miscelaneous Points (no buying allowed; most never have any points; for Perks and Fringe benefits)*

 

*The GM can also award Resource Points instead or in addition to XP.

 

The Resource Points is the amount of Real points for the Equipment/Vehicles/Followers. Characters can use the 5-point doubling Rule.

 

Kit and Armory: "When a character uses Resource Points (particularly Equipment Points), he must distinguish between his Kit(the equipment, Followers, Vehicles, and so on that he currently carries, uses, or “has active”) and his Armory(the total amount of equipment, Followers, Vehicles, and so on that he has to choose from)"

 

The amory can be infinite and is not limited by the resource points in any way. The amory is kept at a save palce (the ship or the base) and the character can restock and switch weapons in his Kit whenever he has a chance to get too it. (It works a lot like a Framework with "Only Changeable at Base").

The starting Armory of a Character is usually 1.5 times his starting Resource Points, and the players should determine what is in it before the campaign starts. Afterwards it grows as they loot or buy equipment and shrinks as they loose it in the course of an adventure.

Example: "During the course of Crimesmasher’s early adventures, he loses his assault rifle and his lockpicking tools when one of his enemies takes them away from him. But he also acquires several pistols and shotguns (taken from street thugs he defeated), a couple sets of handcuffs, two more suits of body armor, an arsenal of throwing blades and knives confiscated from his enemy Razor, a small fire extinguisher, and a waffle iron." (I wonder what that waffle iron does in his armory).

 

Relevant modifiers:

The Kit might varry in size, depending on the Missions and the GM's tastes. As example are given normal Gunwear (1 times the Kit's points), Casual Gunwear (0.5 times Kit's point; nothing harder to hit than +2 to Perception Roll) and Formal Gunwear (1.25 times Kit).

There are several ideas to Limit what the Characters can have. As the Resource Points translate to Real Points, putting an AP cap on items might be interesting. A sugestion is 1.5 too 2 times the Resource Points (so no matter how heavy you limit it, you could not have something higher than 90 AP in your 60 Real Point Kit).

Another idea is to only let characters start only with Standart Gear and only let them buy what they have a permit for. These permits are based on Perks:

"Standart" is free, what any law abiding citizen could aquire (handguns and hunting rifles, cars, helicopters)

There are also Street-level (3 points; smg's, stronger body armor; things that requires a unusual permit or licence).

Military (5 points; HMG's, grenades, James bond or a-team style cars, best body armor)

Advanced Military (10 points; everything, including tanks, apaches, nuclear submarines...).

Another important thing is that the Amory and Kit normally contains only "of the shelf" equipment. It might have cosmetic modifications, but a character can't easily upgrade them (beyond what anybody else can do). The character should either buy unique items with Character Points (so he can't loose them for long), or he has to live with it that loosing that item means he permanently looses the Resource Points (this works a lot like the "Independent" Limitation from 5E).

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Also' date=' you could fatten up the WF table some I suppose. It could have a dependency tree. But this might be more confusing than just using the resource pools. Do you require both resource pools AND weapon familiarities generally?[/quote']

 

Weapon Familiarities are the default assumption in my campaign, regardless of whether Resource Pools or any other optional rules are in use. This isn't a particular problem, as far as I'm concerned; WF: Small Arms = 2pts, and WF: Common Melee Weapons = 2pts. Done. This covers a lot of weapons.

 

However, I've had a few of those "paranoid" players who insisted on sinking tons of points into every single WF possible, presumably because they were terrified of getting "stuck" with a weapon they didn't know how to use at some point in the campaign. Because if they don't have WF: Flint-lock Pistols, the GM (me) will somehow contrive to force their character to use one...

 

Yeah, right.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Weapon Familiarity: Catapults. You just never know when you might need one in the 24th century.

[Christopher]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Weapon Familiarity: Catapults. You just never know when you might need one in the 24th century.

Or while trying to destory the shield-generator of a moon-sized space station that can blow up a planet...

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

We used a variation of a Resource pool in our SH game.

Found that the accessability perks worked well, but the active point limits sometimes became kinda wonky, especially when combined with the higher tech ger, which often tended towards high AP totals.

 

FWIW, I did spend the mass of points for Advanced Military, but I was playing the Captain of a Broadsword class mercenary cruiser with full compliment of crew and vehicles.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

We used a variation of a Resource pool in our SH game.

Found that the accessability perks worked well, but the active point limits sometimes became kinda wonky, especially when combined with the higher tech ger, which often tended towards high AP totals.

 

FWIW, I did spend the mass of points for Advanced Military, but I was playing the Captain of a Broadsword class mercenary cruiser with full compliment of crew and vehicles.

 

That makes sense. In Traveller Hero, it's hard to spell "firepower" without FGMP-15.

 

I've noticed that Active Point limits do not play well with many "realistic" builds for equipment of the Ultra Tech variety. Try to compromise by fitting the Ultimate Weapon into your oh-so-finely-tuned-for-proper-game-balance AP limit, and you end up with an Anti-Matter Rifle that does the same damage as a Browning M2HB. Because, you know... point totals.

 

For my game, I just build the weapons as they should be, and if their Active Cost is 90 points, or 900 points, so be it. Resource Pools make it all better: the players need only spend 1/5th of the Real Cost if it's "off the shelf."

 

But then there's:

 

Weapon Familiarity

Weapon Permits

Equipment Availability

Police Powers (Local or Interstellar)

Heavy Weapon Permits

License to Practice a Profession (Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, etc.)

[The Main Man]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

I've been mulling over using Resource Pools for a few campaigns lately. This thread is definitely giving me stuff to think about.

 

For one, I am working on a Time Travel HERO campaign and I'm not sure how to address Resource Pools for what I hope are obvious reasons. I have the idea that they start with no Resource Points but I give them some little by little through minor assigned CP rewards. I can see certain arguments in favor of them having to buy such things from scratch though. You watch Doctor Who and almost no one but The Doctor brings any gear with themself, and one could argue that The Doctor uses what Resource Points he has to swap out various gadgets with a few Inventor rolls. Hm...

 

I have a High Fantasy campaign on the back burner though, and earlier comments have definitely inspired me to make use of them to balance Magic with Equipment.

 

I also have a Pulp/Dark Champions/Ninja HERO hybrid in the works that I'm not sure how to approach just yet either. I'm not sure if the PCs should buy all of their Resource Points or if they should get some for free.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

That makes sense. In Traveller Hero' date=' it's hard to spell "firepower" without [i']FGMP-15[/i].

 

I've noticed that Active Point limits do not play well with many "realistic" builds for equipment of the Ultra Tech variety. Try to compromise by fitting the Ultimate Weapon into your oh-so-finely-tuned-for-proper-game-balance AP limit, and you end up with an Anti-Matter Rifle that does the same damage as a Browning M2HB. Because, you know... point totals.

 

For my game, I just build the weapons as they should be, and if their Active Cost is 90 points, or 900 points, so be it. Resource Pools make it all better: the players need only spend 1/5th of the Real Cost if it's "off the shelf."

 

But then there's:

 

Weapon Familiarity

Weapon Permits

Equipment Availability

Police Powers (Local or Interstellar)

Heavy Weapon Permits

License to Practice a Profession (Mercenary, Bounty Hunter, etc.)

 

Exactly, there are a lot of ways to make your players sink points for the privilege of having mil-spec weapons and gear

[Christopher]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

That makes sense. In Traveller Hero' date=' it's hard to spell "firepower" without [i']FGMP-15[/i].

 

I've noticed that Active Point limits do not play well with many "realistic" builds for equipment of the Ultra Tech variety. Try to compromise by fitting the Ultimate Weapon into your oh-so-finely-tuned-for-proper-game-balance AP limit, and you end up with an Anti-Matter Rifle that does the same damage as a Browning M2HB. Because, you know... point totals.

 

For my game, I just build the weapons as they should be, and if their Active Cost is 90 points, or 900 points, so be it. Resource Pools make it all better: the players need only spend 1/5th of the Real Cost if it's "off the shelf."

Sorry, but this sounds more like you haven't thought your world through in the beginning.

If you define the world in a proper way (PD/ED/Body limits for items and people), you can built a 100% deadly nuclear bomb with as little as a 20-25 DC Blast, Area of Effect (Explosion), Megaarea. And it is one that Superman/Brick of choice could survive point blank.

[Erkenfresh]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

Sorry' date=' but this sounds more like you haven't thought your world through in the beginning.[/quote']

 

He only published a book about it.

 

I think what he means is that some combinations of advantages and limitations can make things wonky. For example a RKA 3d6, autofire 5, armor piercing, penetrating, with 16 charges will have a much higher cost than a simple RKA 6d6 with 4 charges and in many situations still do less damage.

 

@The Main Man, definitely I think it's a good idea. My melee specialists way outshone the wizard because they get their main attacks, like a HKA 2d6 sword, for free. Alternatively, you could give the wizards a staff that contain a VPP in them.

[Christopher]

Re: Resource Pools in Star Hero

 

He only published a book about it.

 

I think what he means is that some combinations of advantages and limitations can make things wonky. For example a RKA 3d6, autofire 5, armor piercing, penetrating, with 16 charges will have a much higher cost than a simple RKA 6d6 with 4 charges and in many situations still do less damage.

Writing a book does not makes one infallible.

 

My first question about your examples would be, why you applied armor peircing and penetrating (you usually take either, not both). When you reached the point where you think you need multiple levels of penetrating or more than two x2 AP, it is the point where you have to find a different way. Usually a "Multi Tiered" approach helps.

 

Especially settings with wildly different Techlevels are easily subceptible to these errors. Let's take a look at Dark Heresy, wich plays in Warhammer 40k Universe. The worlds on wich the inquisitors adventure (or come from) can range in techlevel from medieval (Primitive) to "Full Tech":

A Feudal Platemail and a Full Carapace armor have the exaclty same Armor Value.

The same way a Medieval Sword and a "Monofilament" Sword do excatly the same damage (the Monofilament also has a slight Armor Penetration)

Difference between the two items: The Primitive Tag.

 

Primtive Weapon vs. Primitive Armor and Modern Weapon vs. Modern Armor works just normal.

Primitive Weapon vs. Modern Armor doubles armor points

Modern Weapon vs. Primitve Armor halves armor Points.

 

Make "Primitiv" a Limitation, and no problems will arise.

If you need more than two levels, just define the highest "tier" as the standart, make any tier lower a (incrisingly valuable) limitation. And base the effectivenis based on the "Level difference".

A micrometer thin, nanosecond long Antimater Pulse might go through ANY armor. But it is still only a small, short beam that travels at lightspeed and thus not more deadly than shooting a needle through the body.