Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I don't have a problem with the telepathic Emma Frost' date=' but what the heck toes that have to do with turning into a diamond? And if she is super strong in diamond form how could Magneto restrain her with brass bed post in X-Men First Class?[/quote']

 

 

Emma was telepathic way way before the diamond nonsense. I used to like the character in the old Bynre/Clarmont days but the diamond form is just not cool to me.

[ayinde]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I will take it one step further why is beast a cat man? why must wolverine have natural claws instead of cyber implants. night crawler is a real half daemon? mystique is his mother (cus she is blue makes perfect since... wait father is red should he not be purple?) angel has real angel powers? for Christ sake is jean gray the damn Phoenix or not? most of the new powers given to the x men get on my nerves

[ayinde]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

ahem ....... back to topic......... so sammael has your project made any progress

[Greywind]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I will take it one step further why is beast a cat man? why must wolverine have natural claws instead of cyber implants. night crawler is a real half daemon? mystique is his mother (cus she is blue makes perfect since... wait father is red should he not be purple?) angel has real angel powers? for Christ sake is jean gray the damn Phoenix or not? most of the new powers given to the x men get on my nerves

Uncanny X-Men Annual #4 Doctor Strange was called in to find out what ailment Nightcrawler had. Nightcrawler was, while a mutant, completely human. Making him part demon is retcon crap.

[ayinde]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Greywind I completely agree.

[psyber624]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

I will agree with Cassandra that Heroes should all be the same starting point total, but not villains. Unless every one of your villains is going to be part of a team of villains with the same number of members as your hero teams they will be easily defeated, not to mention the fact that the genre is FULL of super powerful badguys that the heroes cannot beat through brute strength alone. A master villain should be able to stand toe to toe with an entire team of heroes, all on his own, and at least give them a run for their money. With his legions of minions, be they DOOMbots or VIPER thugs whatever you want them to be the Heroes should have quite a challenge on their hands.

 

Of course this is just one type of villain. There are LOTS of ways to make badguys "untouchable" as well, Diplomatic Immunity (Dr. Doom), Public Perception (Lex Luthor), or Hidden Plot (most Batman villains) the fight isn't about beating up the badguy, its about getting around whatever other obstacle is in place to stop their evil plans.

[Greywind]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Not so much "heroes" as "PCs".

[Kirby]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Not so much "heroes" as "PCs".

I think considering that this thread is about a GM asking for advice on a new(ish) campaign, that psyber's comments of "heroes" was understood as "PC heroes." There's no +1 for a semantics argument.

[Greywind]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

No, but there are always NPC heroes flying about.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

ahem ....... back to topic......... so sammael has your project made any progress

 

Well, sure, ayinde, though maybe not as quickly as some might wish (and I wish to tender my apologies ahead of time, my life being what it is, this is not going to be quick). I've been doing a metric ton of reading, with the help of this forum I've been setting campaign point levels and ground rules and doing supplementary readings, and now, finally, I've drawn up an initial draft of an NPC. The Champions Complete rulebook tells me that bricks are often the easiest characters to make, so I figured that was the place to start.

 

This particular 400 CP brick is Anna Dunbar, or Rocks Anna, as she is known when she is "working". She is a Senior Geologist working in Oakhaven, Michigan. She earned her doctorate in Geology from the South Dakota School of Mines and Technology in the Black Hills of South Dakota, where she fell in love with spelunking while exploring the Jewel Caves. She was spelunking around the Black Sea when, in a particularly deep cavern, she discovered what looked like the petrified skeletal remains of some oddly put-together humanoid and two rings carved out of crystal. When she put them on she was overcome and passed out. When she awoke, she found her body had crystalized, her skin suddenly rock-hard and no longer a freckled pinkish-hue. She now looked as if she had been carved out of granite and she was far stronger and heavier than ever before.

 

Her powers come from these two rings. One is the red-crystal Heartstone ring and the other is the black-crystal Soulstone ring. The Heartstone ring enhances her characteristics by imbuing them with the essence of the living Earth. This enhancement is further increased if she's actually touching the ground. The Soulstone ring, is a magic ring.

 

Anna Dunbar ..........Rocks Anna, not touching the ground* ............Rocks Anna, touching the ground**

VAL ....COST ............VAL .....COST .................................................VAL .....COST

20 STR 10 .................45 STR 25 ......................................................70 STR 25

13 DEX 06 ................13 DEX 0 ........................................................13 DEX 0

20 CON 10 ................35 CON 15 .....................................................50 CON 15

18 INT 08 .................18 INT 0 ........................................................18 INT 0

18 EGO 08 ................18 EGO 0 .......................................................18 EGO 0

13 PRE 03 .................15 PRE 02 ......................................................15 PRE 0

05 OCV 10 .................06 OCV 05 .....................................................08 OCV 10

05 DCV 10 .................06 DCV 05 .....................................................08 DCV 10

03 OMCV 0 ................03 OMCV 0 .....................................................03 OMCV 0

04 DMCV 03 ..............04 DMCV 0 .....................................................04 DMCV 0

04 SPD 20 .................04 SPD 0 ........................................................04 SPD 0

05 PD 03 .................+12 rPD 18 ....................................................+14 rPD 21

05 ED 03 .................+12 rED 18 ....................................................+14 rED 21

10 REC 06 .................20 REC 10 ......................................................35 REC 15

40 END 04 .................60 END 04 .....................................................80 END 04

10 BODY 0 ................20 BODY 10 ....................................................29 BODY 09

22 STUN 01 ..............48 STUN 13 ....................................................84 STUN 18

Powers

Heartstone ring: *OIF (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4) 125 Active Points / 71 Real Points; **OIF (-1/2), Unified Power (-1/4), Limited: Only when touching the ground (-1/4) 148 Active Points / 74 Real Points. 145 Total Real Points.

Soulstone ring: Variable Power Pool (Cosmic Pool) 30 Base + 30 Control; Powers can be changed as a zero phase action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1), OIF (-1/2) 120 Active Points / 90 Real Points.

 

Talent: Striking Appearance (beautiful), all characters 3 CP.

 

Perk: Wealthy, $3,000,000 8 CP.

 

Skills

12- Bureaucratics 3 CP

12- Charm 3 CP

12- Climbing 3 CP

Combat Skill Level, All Combat 10 CP

13- Deduction 3 CP

12- High Society 3 CP

13- KS: Caverns of the world 3 CP

13- KS: Geology 3 CP

13- KS: Scientific community 3 CP

Language: Catalan, completely fluent with accent 3 CP

13- Navigation 3 CP

13- PS: Geologist 3 CP

13- Systems Operation 3 CP

12- Teamwork 3 CP

 

Complications

DNPC: Slightly Less Powerful, Infrequently, Unaware 10 Points

Hunted by Circe, who wants the rings: More Powerful, Infrequently, Harshly Punish, NCI 20 Points

Physical Complication, Weighty: Infrequently, Slightly Impairing 10 Points

Psychological Complication, Code vs. Killing: Common, Total 20 Points

Social Complication, Secret Identity: Frequently, Major 15 Points

[Grailknight]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Looks like you're doing fine. I might lower her CON by 10 and add 5 to PD & ED but that's a minor thing . Just keep your builds consistent within your campaign.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Word of advice.

 

When Building character abilities with a lot of limitations always try to use the savings to broaden the scope of their abilities rather than increase their high-end maximums.

 

I tried to follow this concept with my JLA builds whenever possible (ex: Superman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, etc..). With Superman this meant not skimping or bypassing RAW on Super Senses. With the 6e version of Green Lantern (ring as AI follower) I literally had points to burn so I decided to alter the Ring to require users to invest points in skillful used of the ring which helps differentiate Hal Jordan using a Ring vs. someone with no Oan ring training like Batman with one. This was a type of team balancing as other characters like Wonder Woman are actually quite difficult to get within a similar budget as Superman since 'normally' most of her abilities have no 'Limitations'. I had to go the focus route with many with the long term idea being that future XP could be spent to buy off the foci lims (ex: Hermes Sandals of Flight - the Gods deem you worthy of these gifts directly).

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Looks like you're doing fine. I might lower her CON by 10 and add 5 to PD & ED but that's a minor thing . Just keep your builds consistent within your campaign.

 

Good news, thanks. Now, pray tell, what would lowering CON and raising PD/ED do for the character? I'm all "ears".

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Word of advice.

 

When Building character abilities with a lot of limitations always try to use the savings to broaden the scope of their abilities rather than increase their high-end maximums.

 

I tried to follow this concept with my JLA builds whenever possible (ex: Superman, Green Lantern, Martian Manhunter, etc..). With Superman this meant not skimping or bypassing RAW on Super Senses. With the 6e version of Green Lantern (ring as AI follower) I literally had points to burn so I decided to alter the Ring to require users to invest points in skillful used of the ring which helps differentiate Hal Jordan using a Ring vs. someone with no Oan ring training like Batman with one. This was a type of team balancing as other characters like Wonder Woman are actually quite difficult to get within a similar budget as Superman since 'normally' most of her abilities have no 'Limitations'. I had to go the focus route with many with the long term idea being that future XP could be spent to buy off the foci lims (ex: Hermes Sandals of Flight - the Gods deem you worthy of these gifts directly).

 

Thank you, Hyper-Man. I like the sound of your advice. It looks like sound advice! Truly, this is what I'm looking for. And I like your write-ups!

 

For the record, though, if this were a character I was going to play, I certainly would not build her so that the theft of two small rings would take all of her powers away. She's a support NPC that'll sometimes be around. She's like Strength Incarnate and if she's controlled through mental powers or if one of her rings get stolen, it gives the PCs something significant to handle. Think of her as an ally and a work program. Or a powerful DNPC, taken for no points.

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Heroes and Villains can be built on the same points, you just have to remember a couple of things. One, heores worthy of the name have rules of engagement. They don't fly into a room and punch the first person they see in a costume. They have to give the villain a chance to surrender, thus giving the villain a chance to attack or spring their death trap. Even Batman takes the time to observe whose the villain and whose the victim (as in the Dark Knight).

 

Villains tend to be unbalanced with heavier attacks and defenses, and few non-combat skills. Most heroes will have skills needed to track down villains, and villains will be working for a mastermind who has the skills needed to trap the heroes, even if they need to employ minions because of a lack of combat power.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Heroes and Villains can be built on the same points, you just have to remember a couple of things. One, heores worthy of the name have rules of engagement. They don't fly into a room and punch the first person they see in a costume. They have to give the villain a chance to surrender, thus giving the villain a chance to attack or spring their death trap. Even Batman takes the time to observe whose the villain and whose the victim (as in the Dark Knight).

 

Villains tend to be unbalanced with heavier attacks and defenses, and few non-combat skills. Most heroes will have skills needed to track down villains, and villains will be working for a mastermind who has the skills needed to trap the heroes, even if they need to employ minions because of a lack of combat power.

 

Minions! I love minions. Good advice, too on the ability to do unto your foe. Thanks. Most of the villains will be built at the same level as the heroes and I totally agree about the differing tactics and niceties employed on either side.

[Grailknight]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Good news, thanks. Now, pray tell, what would lowering CON and raising PD/ED do for the character? I'm all "ears".

 

Qualifier: Only my opinion. 50 CON is on the highside, as written she is not stunned by a 20d6 attack on avg and it looks like your campaign avg will be less. Raising PD & ED will make her less vulnerable to small attacks. As I read her defenses she has 21PD/ED. That makes 8d6(high powered agents?) a true nuisance and leaves her paticularly vulnerable to 8-10 die autofires.

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Mastermind's Minions

 

Followers: 16x 150+ Disadvantages

 

50 Points

 

Mind Control 10d6

 

50 Points

 

Money: Filthy Rich

 

15 Points

 

Bribery

Conversation

Oratory

Persuasion

Seduction

SL: Overall +1

 

Cost 25 Points

 

 

Taking over the World

 

Priceless

[Cassandra]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Mastermind's Minions

 

Followers: 16x 150+ Disadvantages

 

50 Points

 

Mind Control 10d6

 

50 Points

 

Money: Filthy Rich

 

15 Points

 

Bribery

Conversation

Oratory

Persuasion

Seduction

SL: Overall +1

 

Cost 25 Points

 

Armor +15 rPD +15 rED

 

Cost 45 Points

 

INT 20

EGO 20

PRE 20

COM 20

 

Cost 45

 

Mental Defense +10 Points

 

Cost 10 Points

 

Total Cost 250 Points

 

 

Taking over the World

 

Priceless

[Kirby]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Mastermind's Minions 50 Points

Mind Control 10d6 50 Points

Money: Filthy Rich 15 Points

 

[skills] Cost 25 Points

 

Armor Cost 45 Points

 

[Char] Cost 45

 

Mental Defense Cost 10 Points

 

Total Cost 250 Points

Or 240 points with 10 left to spare.

Taking over the World

 

Priceless

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Qualifier: Only my opinion. 50 CON is on the highside' date=' as written she is not stunned by a 20d6 attack on avg and it looks like your campaign avg will be less. Raising PD & ED will make her less vulnerable to small attacks. As I read her defenses she has 21PD/ED. That makes 8d6(high powered agents?) a true nuisance and leaves her paticularly vulnerable to 8-10 die autofires.[/quote']

 

Thank you, Grailknight. Very edifying. That would not be a good thing. For the record, though, Rocks has up to 26 rPD/rED and another 5 PD/ED.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Mastermind's Minions

 

Followers: 16x 150+ Disadvantages

 

50 Points

 

Mind Control 10d6

 

50 Points

 

Money: Filthy Rich

 

15 Points

 

Bribery

Conversation

Oratory

Persuasion

Seduction

SL: Overall +1

 

Cost 25 Points

 

Armor +15 rPD +15 rED

 

Cost 45 Points

 

INT 20

EGO 20

PRE 20

COM 20

 

Cost 45

 

Mental Defense +10 Points

 

Cost 10 Points

 

Total Cost 250 Points

 

 

Taking over the World

 

Priceless

 

Very Cool. Thank you, Cassandra. This is something I've not seen in Champions Complete so far, a detailed example of creating minions.

[psyber624]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Not bad. I don't recommend VPP's for new GM's/Players, especially not Cosmic ones. Also others will shoot me down here I am sure but you should probably define some form of limitation for the VPP if you intend to use it (such as earth based powers) unless you intend for her to be able to use ANY power with up to 30 AP.

 

26 rPD/ED is overkill. That ignores standard damage rolls from up to 7d6 KA (105 AP/21 DC, way outside your campaign range which would seem to be around 70 AP 14 DC based on this character). However 31 PD/ED total vs Normal attacks is on the low side for a Brick if you are using 14 DC. Average defenses for a 14 DC campaign would be 28, Your brick will take, on average, 18 Stun from a Max DC attack (requiring 5 attacks to be KO'd based on your stun). I would convert some of the rPD/rED to extra normal PD/ED to put your total defenses up slightly (35-40ish seems about right to me, opinions may differ) for your brick. This would also make autofire basically useless against your character (14 DC cap yields about 9 DC of AF (5) or 11 DC of AF (3)) which to me is one of the hallmarks of a brick. Also I agree your CON is WAY too high, right now it takes a 72 damage roll for this character to be stunned which will never happen. 14 DC yields a standard 49 DEF + CON to avoid stunning on an average roll. 60 total should be more than enough to protect you from most attacks.

 

Finally this character is a melee specialist (only able to do ranged by throwing something) and yet you have no movement power at all, so she can only do a base 12m run per phase. You also have only 1 CSL and a max OCV therefore of 9, so hitting anything beyond 8m will be nearly impossible (especially with throwing modifiers if you are using those in your campaign). This means that she will be basically helpless against any form of ranged combatant. Either more CSL's or some form of movement power is called for.

 

Now, one caveat. You stated that this was an NPC, designing NPC's with glaring weaknesses or overblown strengths in their bailiwick is just fine, as long as you are aware of what you were doing. The advice I presented here is targeted at combat usefulness for a PC specifically. Nothing wrong with leaving things as they are for an NPC if this is what you intended.

[Sammael]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Not bad. I don't recommend VPP's for new GM's/Players, especially not Cosmic ones. Also others will shoot me down here I am sure but you should probably define some form of limitation for the VPP if you intend to use it (such as earth based powers) unless you intend for her to be able to use ANY power with up to 30 AP.

 

26 rPD/ED is overkill. That ignores standard damage rolls from up to 7d6 KA (105 AP/21 DC, way outside your campaign range which would seem to be around 70 AP 14 DC based on this character). However 31 PD/ED total vs Normal attacks is on the low side for a Brick if you are using 14 DC. Average defenses for a 14 DC campaign would be 28, Your brick will take, on average, 18 Stun from a Max DC attack (requiring 5 attacks to be KO'd based on your stun). I would convert some of the rPD/rED to extra normal PD/ED to put your total defenses up slightly (35-40ish seems about right to me, opinions may differ) for your brick. This would also make autofire basically useless against your character (14 DC cap yields about 9 DC of AF (5) or 11 DC of AF (3)) which to me is one of the hallmarks of a brick. Also I agree your CON is WAY too high, right now it takes a 72 damage roll for this character to be stunned which will never happen. 14 DC yields a standard 49 DEF + CON to avoid stunning on an average roll. 60 total should be more than enough to protect you from most attacks.

 

Finally this character is a melee specialist (only able to do ranged by throwing something) and yet you have no movement power at all, so she can only do a base 12m run per phase. You also have only 1 CSL and a max OCV therefore of 9, so hitting anything beyond 8m will be nearly impossible (especially with throwing modifiers if you are using those in your campaign). This means that she will be basically helpless against any form of ranged combatant. Either more CSL's or some form of movement power is called for.

 

Now, one caveat. You stated that this was an NPC, designing NPC's with glaring weaknesses or overblown strengths in their bailiwick is just fine, as long as you are aware of what you were doing. The advice I presented here is targeted at combat usefulness for a PC specifically. Nothing wrong with leaving things as they are for an NPC if this is what you intended.

 

Thank you for your detailed critique, psyber624. This is great and way better than I have a right to expect. I knew Rocks would be revised when I made her and she'll certainly see some changes after reading these posts.

 

I'm leaving the VPP as written, because that is her flexibility. I do want it to be able to do as much as possible within the limits of 30 points. I thought she'd use her VPP for her enhanced movement needs, among other things (and is part of the reason I went cosmic). Is this not a good idea?

At 90 real points, she's going to use the heck out of her VPP.

 

Otherwise, well, ok then. Resistant defenses will be reduced as will be her CON. PD/ED will be improved. I'll look into improved mobility as well. Good stuff here in this forum, yes indeed!

[psyber624]

Re: Justice League-type DC/Champions campaign. Advice, please.

 

Again, this is an NPC so some of the following may not apply.

 

There are 2 main issues with VPP's, and cosmic ones crank the probl-o-meter up to 9.

 

1. If you aren't careful they can bog down a game. Cosmic especially means that this character can whip up any power at any time she wants it, to suit any needs she may have. The problem is that building a new power takes time, and if you have to stop the game for a while to build out that power that you REALLY need right now the pace of the game slows to a crawl. You can alleviate this problem somewhat by requiring a list of useable powers to be generated and approved before hand but that basically results in the VPP becoming a Multipower with ALOT of slots (potentially) and you can still loose game time while flipping through all the powers to find the one she wants to use right now. Realize that at 90 real points she could have a 30 Point Multi-Power pool with 20 slots for the same cost/effect if you do not allow building powers on the fly.

 

2. It can be very difficult to reign in players with VPP's (and if your NPC's have them some players may be upset if they are not allowed to have them). 30 points doesn't sound like much, but with it you can do sooo many things, take advantage of Limitations, Susceptibilities, weaknesses, etc. In the hands of a savy player and a lenient GM they can easily become "I win" buttons where almost nothing stops them. Make sure you know exactly what you will allow in a VPP before you unleash them on a group or you may be surprised what comes out. RAW they are almost not restricted at all