Hit Locations, too high or just right?

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Normals are already pretty fragile, when I played as my first speedster I once used a 3d6 autofire HA on a mook. The mook was driving a car... long story short, I had to retire that character.

[psyber624]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I just think about it like this. For 8 pts (8 PSL's vs Hit Location Modifier w/one attack) you can double the damage through defenses with an attack. (Less if you use a limitation such as "Headshots only") That is actually quite powerful. If you reduce the Placed Shot modifiers you get to do the same even cheaper.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

I just think about it like this. For 8 pts (8 PSL's vs Hit Location Modifier w/one attack) you can double the damage through defenses with an attack. (Less if you use a limitation such as "Headshots only") That is actually quite powerful. If you reduce the Placed Shot modifiers you get to do the same even cheaper.

 

...and while it may be unbalancing to do this to a superhero, it's fine to allow it against normals in the same campaign?

 

This is a prime example of why I don't do house rules.

[psyber624]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Umm, I never stated anything about it being appropriate for one side or the other, nor being unbalancing, nor is any of that even a house rule (it is an examination of the RAW, no house rules involved). I was actually stating that reducing the Hit Location Modifiers would make something that is already quite powerful even more so.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Umm' date=' I never stated anything about it being appropriate for one side or the other, nor being unbalancing, nor is any of that even a house rule (it is an examination of the RAW, no house rules involved). I was actually stating that reducing the Hit Location Modifiers would make something that is already quite powerful even more so.[/quote']

 

My bad. For some reason I read your post as trying to explain the "house rule" Tom Carman posted above. If that wasn't the case you have my apology.

[psyber624]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

That's cool. i was talking about the OP mostly, not about the house rule.

[Ostof]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

With regards to the original question: in either case I don't really have a problem with a -8 OCV penalty; I think it's about right. It might even be a bit low, but a -9 or more would be simply unplayable.

 

And to Greywind: Penalty Skill Levels for Hit Locations are quite common in my games, actually. It's a game mechanic that's simply too useful to ignore, for defining a character's tactics as well as their personality. For example:

 

This might make Tasha roll her eyes again, for which I apologize in advance.

 

Hit 'em where it hurts!: Penalty Skill Levels: +8 vs. Hit Location modifiers with All Attacks; only to target location #13 (vitals) (-1) [/Quote]

 

I mostly agree with this post. On the one hand, Xavier is totally correct - not only is the "-8" feel right, it keeps characters from being terminated on a regular basis. And, supporting his PSL point, I don't necessarily believe that a "-9" or higher is unplayable, simply because PSL's can, and should be, used in the game. It is my personal belief that of all the combat related skill levels a normal human could possess, PSLs vs. location would be the most common found, and most naturally acquired. Not a lot, 2-3 at the most, but definitely present - most people do a pretty decent job of touching, even when moving, what they're trying to touch.

 

The example seems a bit...munchkin for my tastes, but that's neither here nor there. To each their own.

[Tasha]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hit 'em where it hurts!: Penalty Skill Levels: +8 vs. Hit Location modifiers with All Attacks; only to target location #13 (vitals) (-1)

 

I mostly agree with this post. On the one hand, Xavier is totally correct - not only is the "-8" feel right, it keeps characters from being terminated on a regular basis. And, supporting his PSL point, I don't necessarily believe that a "-9" or higher is unplayable, simply because PSL's can, and should be, used in the game. It is my personal belief that of all the combat related skill levels a normal human could possess, PSLs vs. location would be the most common found, and most naturally acquired. Not a lot, 2-3 at the most, but definitely present - most people do a pretty decent job of touching, even when moving, what they're trying to touch.

 

The example seems a bit...munchkin for my tastes, but that's neither here nor there. To each their own.

 

Also keep in mind that all Hit location penalties are halved out of combat. With means that a Sniper with 4 skill levels with a good scope can headshot someone at a long distance without setting or brace'ing. If one Sets for a full turn +2, and Braces they can do even better shots. IF the GM allows you could also have a Spotter make their Roll and give the Sniper another bonus either to Range Mod or to the OCV.

 

I have allowed Penalty Skill Levels with Hit Location. I find that for an expert marksman they are invaluable. +2 with hit Locations means that a chest shot is only -1 OCV. Being able to hit that regularly with a decent attack (ie DC 5 or better) is a HUGE advantage. I mean who wouldn't love to constantly hit a x1 Body, x3Stun Location? Esp with a +1 Stun Mult Weapon.

[Vondy]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Yeah every guy tends to think it's that "special spot" below the belt location

Sexist much? I'm a guy, and I don't automatically think its my dangly bits. If one of us had said something about "every woman" you would have been all the way down our throats by now (you have a proven track record in that regard). Besides, isn't every girl's "special spot" beneath the belt and above the thighs, too? That smarty pants retort aside, the vitals equates to the pelvic region, which does include a lot of internal sexual plumbing for both sexes. As well as our critical evacuatory plumbing, major arteries, and nerve endings. It is vital. And don't make light of male or female reproductive organs being damaged. Reproduction and sexuality are major facets of the human experience, and our quality of life. People pretend to be "more evolved" these days, but we are evolved in such a way that its a key component of our identities. And, that's okay.

[Vondy]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Topic at hand, I think -8 is fine. Accuracy under the intense pressure of combat requires significant training, experience, and mental toughness. Cinematic heroes can be built on more points. And there are options (see Dark Champions, etc) for superskills to offset them.

[Tasha]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Sexist much? I'm a guy' date=' and I don't automatically think its my dangly bits. If one of us had said something about "every woman" you would have been all the way down our throats by now (you have a proven track record in that regard). Besides, isn't every girl's "special spot" beneath the belt and above the thighs, too? That smarty pants retort aside, the vitals equates to the pelvic region, which does include a lot of internal sexual plumbing for both sexes. As well as our critical evacuatory plumbing, major arteries, and nerve endings. It is vital. And don't make light of male or female reproductive organs being damaged. Reproduction and sexuality are major facets of the human experience, and our quality of life. People pretend to be "more evolved" these days, but we are evolved in such a way that its a key component of our identities. And, that's okay.[/quote']

 

Sorry, that it came off that way. From my personal experience. It seems like every guy I have ever gamed with seems to think that 13 hit's that special spot. I swear it seems to come up as a joke nearly every time someone rolls a 13 or whenever someone talks about a Vitals shot.

 

Like we discussed above, I am pretty sure that Vitals is actually any torso hit that hits a vital organ. ie Heart, lungs, etc. Location 12 Stomach seems to cover all of the vicera (ie digestive equipment) that is located below the rib cage and above the pelvis.

[Old Man]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hero itself seems to have treated location 13 inconsistently. It's described in some places as vital organs, but in the sectional armor tables in FH it seems to be the groinal region judging by what armor pieces actually cover it.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hero itself seems to have treated location 13 inconsistently. It's described in some places as vital organs' date=' but in the sectional armor tables in FH it seems to be the groinal region judging by what armor pieces actually cover it.[/quote']

 

And, again ... the Hit Locations chart is very consistent about starting at the top and working its way down, which places Location 13 just below Location 12.

[phoenix240]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hero itself seems to have treated location 13 inconsistently. It's described in some places as vital organs' date=' but in the sectional armor tables in FH it seems to be the groinal region judging by what armor pieces actually cover it.[/quote']

 

And' date=' again ... the Hit Locations chart is very consistent about starting at the top and working its way down, which places Location 13 just below Location 12.[/quote']

 

And the Low Blow (generally defined as kick in the groin) was defined as having a default hit location of 13. It's not male "issues" that have lead to the idea that that is what the vitals are. The GURPS hit location table has groin and vitals as different locations which seems much clearer.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

And' date=' again ... the Hit Locations chart is very consistent about starting at the top and working its way down, which places Location 13 just below Location 12.[/quote']

 

And it's also worth pointing out that there is, anatomically, a lot of bits between the 'groin' and 'stomach' on a human body. Notably the Stomach is just below the Diaphram, and a little to the left of center.

 

Unless you're going by "the general stomach region" people think about when you say stomach, which is about your belly button or so - which STILL leaves a lot of space before you hit the groin region. But if you're going to go more abstract about the stomach, why not do so about the Vitals and describe them as "any vital organ".

 

I've always imagined the Vitals as, if I was just walking down the body based on the chart, as Kidneys & Intestines. Basically the lower abdomen (belly button to hip bone).

 

The groin sits between the thighs, not above them. A 'Thigh Shot' would have a better chance of hitting your groin than a Vital Shot based on any interpretation of the above and the actual location of your private parts. A Vitals Shot should spill your intestines onto the floor, not castrate you.

 

So yeah - I still yell at all my gaming groups any time some guy (and it's usually the guys) goes "heh heh, nut shot" .... demonstrating both a lack a basic biology knowledge and the mentality of a 12 year old. Because it's annoying.

 

Previously mentioned inconsistencies aside regarding Armor in Fantasy Hero and The Core Rules.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

So yeah - I still yell at all my gaming groups any time some guy (and it's usually the guys) goes "heh heh, nut shot" .... demonstrating both a lack a basic biology knowledge and the mentality of a 12 year old. Because it's annoying.

 

Heh. Gotta tell this story now.

Way wayy WWAAAYYYY back when I first started playing Champs, in 4e, someone in a game took a shot that did BODY damage to him. The GM liked to roll location for that; no effect on mechanics, just for flavor. Of course, it came up as location 13.

 

Now, this player was the biggest ... whatever the male version of a slut would be. Horndog? Whatever ... you get the idea. Anyway, this sent his player into an absolute tizzy, as he interpreted this as meaning he'd been ... emasculated. It was simultaneously hilarious and kind of pathetic. Just when he finally starts to calm down, another player looks at him and very calmly and in a near monotone (which is how he always spoke) said, "Don't you wish you had Regeneration?"

 

Cue a second tizzy as he quickly gathers up his character sheet and starts looking it over intently, until he finally finds out that he does. His voice promptly shoots up two octaves and he starts screaming "I DO! I DO! I DO HAVE REGENERATION!!" This became a catchphrase in the group for years.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Dang it! I must spread rep - that there's funny. I don't care who you are.

[Old Man]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hey, was it the kind of regeneration hydars have, where you cut off one head and two grow back? That could be... interesting.

[CrosshairCollie]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hey' date=' was it the kind of regeneration hydars have, where you cut off one head and two grow back? That could be... interesting.[/quote']

 

To the extent of my knowledge (not that I would have asked), the character did not have a Lernaen penis.

[Ndreare]

Re: Hit Locations, too high or just right?

 

Hey' date=' was it the kind of regeneration hydars have, where you cut off one head and two grow back? That could be... interesting.[/quote']

If it was I would put that down as " bad Wong fun" :-)