VSFX in a "Magic Only" VPP?

[phydaux]

One of the classic VPP disadds is "Magic Only." To my mind that means no "Fireball," No "Lightning bolt." EB = "Mystic Bolt," RKA = "Mystic Blast," AOE EB = "Mana Ball," etc.

 

Would you allow a power in a Magic Only VPP to have the Variable Special Effect advantage? I'm thinking that would be OK because you would be paying 60 active points worth of END for 40 active points worth of power.

 

What is your take on all this?

 

 

 

 

[Hyper-Man]

I think many board members would argue that Magic as a Pool Only Limitation @ -1/4 means that all abilities created via the VPP are considered to have magic as a special effect in addition to whatever descriptive effect is being modelled. Example, the player wants the character to be able to create a magical fire attack (ex: "Fireball"). It should be allowed with the caveate that any effects that work vs. Magic or Fire will work against the attack (ex: Doctor Strange could use an ability based on the Dispell power that only works vs. "Magic" vs. this "Fireball". The Human Torch would also arguably be able to apply his extra defenses vs. "Flame & Heat" vs. the same "Fireball" even though his defenses aren't magical in nature.

 

Usually, Magic Only at the -1/2 value is used as a shorthand all of the above plus all abilities also are considered to be Spells. This is similar to how the VPP only Advantages No Roll Required & 0 Phase to Change used to be combined as the Cosmic Advantage that on the surface appeared to indicate a "Cosmic" special effect was being used (which was not the case at all).

[Michael Hopcroft]

The use that comes to mind is that the entire VPP becomes useless in any location where magic itself doesn't work. It all depends on what your campaign has powering magic. If magic comes from life force, for example, it would be ineffective in areas with sparse or non-existent human populations. If magic ebbs and flows with time, then there will be periods of time in which no magic works, in which case the VPP is useless. If magic is a gift granted by certain beings and that gift is withdrawn, then no more VPP although the points remain spent (and the PC is in serious trouble)..

[Greywind]

If I'm crafting a spell, oh, say Fireball, then the SFX of it is that it is a ball of fire. It also happens to be magic, as magic is what brought it into being.

[ghost-angel]

How is Magic defined, as pointed out above you have to know what's powering magic, are there different kinds of Magic?

 

Rune Magic, Sorcery, Thaumaturge Magic, Druidic Magic.... or maybe it's Water Magic, Air Magic, Fire Magic.

 

Also as pointed out, sometimes doubling up SFX is not only allowed, but possibly widely spread. Magic + Fire means it affects and is affected by anything that deals with Magic or Fire (Dispel Fire Abilities? Suppresses your Magic Fireball because it's part Fire.)

 

The rulebook actually goes into this under SFX section. So yes, a "Lightning Bolt Spell" is both Magic and Lightning as its SFX.

[phydaux]

see, my thought is this:

 

Mage Man gets into a battle with the notorious villain Ice Guy. Mage Man is built with a 60 pip VPP that has the disadd Magic Only, so Mage Man can only do attacks like 12d6 EB Mystic Bolt, cost 6 END.

 

But Ice Guy is vulnerable to fire based attacks.

 

Hard luck, Mage Man. Because you bought your VPP as Magic Only then no Fire FX attacks for you. You don't get to exploit Ice Guy's vulnerability.

 

My question, then, is would you allow Mage Man to whip up an 8d6 EB Mystic Blast VSFX Mystic Fire, 6 END?

 

My thought is that since the PC is paying END on 60 active points for only 40 active points worth of power then yes, Mage Man may conjure Mystic Fire in his Magic Only VPP.

 

 

 

 

[phydaux]

How is Magic defined' date=' as pointed out above you have to know what's powering magic, are there different kinds of Magic?[/b'] Rune Magic, Sorcery, Thaumaturge Magic, Druidic Magic.... or maybe it's Water Magic, Air Magic, Fire Magic. Also as pointed out, sometimes doubling up SFX is not only allowed, but possibly widely spread. Magic + Fire means it affects and is affected by anything that deals with Magic or Fire (Dispel Fire Abilities? Suppresses your Magic Fireball because it's part Fire.) The rulebook actually goes into this under SFX section. So yes, a "Lightning Bolt Spell" is both Magic and Lightning as its SFX.

 

This is a superhero RPG. There are as many different kinds of magic as there are players who say "Dude, I'm playing a mage this week. Here's my character sheet."

 

 

[phydaux]

If I'm crafting a spell' date=' oh, say [i']Fireball[/i], then the SFX of it is that it is a ball of fire. It also happens to be magic, as magic is what brought it into being.

 

And I'm fine with that provided you didn't buy your powers in a framework that has the limitation Magic Only.

 

If you have a multipower that is defined as Magic Powers but you paid full price for it and one slot is AOE EB Fireball and another is RKA Lightning Bolt then I'm fine with that, too.

 

My whole point is that the VPP limitation Magic Only must limit the powers in a real way. VSFX could be seen as a cheesy way around that limitation but I think I'm ok with it.

 

 

 

 

[phydaux]

I think many board members would argue that Magic as a Pool Only Limitation @ -1/4 means that all abilities created via the VPP are considered to have magic as a special effect in addition to whatever descriptive effect is being modelled. Example' date=' the player wants the character to be able to create a magical fire attack (ex: "Fireball"). It should be allowed with the caveate that any effects that work vs. Magic or Fire will work against the attack (ex: Doctor Strange could use an ability based on the Dispell power that only works vs. "Magic" vs. this "Fireball". The Human Torch would also arguably be able to apply his extra defenses vs. "Flame & Heat" vs. the same "Fireball" even though his defenses aren't magical in nature. Usually, Magic Only at the -1/2 value is used as a shorthand all of the above plus all abilities also are considered to be Spells. This is similar to how the VPP only Advantages [u']No Roll Required & 0 Phase to Change [/u]used to be combined as the Cosmic Advantage that on the surface appeared to indicate a "Cosmic" special effect was being used (which was not the case at all).

 

See, doing it that way allows the powers in my VPP, by virtue of their "limitation," to have amplified effect against Superman AND Mr. Freeze. That's not a limitation, that's an advantage.

[Grailknight]

see, my thought is this:

 

Mage Man gets into a battle with the notorious villain Ice Guy. Mage Man is built with a 60 pip VPP that has the disadd Magic Only, so Mage Man can only do attacks like 12d6 EB Mystic Bolt, cost 6 END.

 

But Ice Guy is vulnerable to fire based attacks.

 

Hard luck, Mage Man. Because you bought your VPP as Magic Only then no Fire FX attacks for you. You don't get to exploit Ice Guy's vulnerability.

 

My question, then, is would you allow Mage Man to whip up an 8d6 EB Mystic Blast VSFX Mystic Fire, 6 END?

 

My thought is that since the PC is paying END on 60 active points for only 40 active points worth of power then yes, Mage Man may conjure Mystic Fire in his Magic Only VPP.

 

 

 

This is the way I've always ruled it as GM. The SFX of the VPP is set at creation and any changes should be paid for. Otherwise you're getting a +1/2 advantage free by virtue of having a VPP.

[Grailknight]

I think many board members would argue that Magic as a Pool Only Limitation @ -1/4 means that all abilities created via the VPP are considered to have magic as a special effect in addition to whatever descriptive effect is being modelled. Example' date=' the player wants the character to be able to create a magical fire attack (ex: "Fireball"). It should be allowed with the caveate that any effects that work vs. Magic or Fire will work against the attack (ex: Doctor Strange could use an ability based on the Dispell power that only works vs. "Magic" vs. this "Fireball". The Human Torch would also arguably be able to apply his extra defenses vs. "Flame & Heat" vs. the same "Fireball" even though his defenses aren't magical in nature. Usually, Magic Only at the -1/2 value is used as a shorthand all of the above plus all abilities also are considered to be Spells. This is similar to how the VPP only Advantages [u']No Roll Required & 0 Phase to Change [/u]used to be combined as the Cosmic Advantage that on the surface appeared to indicate a "Cosmic" special effect was being used (which was not the case at all).

 

See, doing it that way allows the powers in my VPP, by virtue of their "limitation," to have amplified effect against Superman AND Mr. Freeze. That's not a limitation, that's an advantage.

Agreed. If you want to say your VPP is magical fire then it's ALWAYS magical fire and gets the advantages and limitations of both. Magic or cosmic energy or mind over matter psionics are all just special effects and EVERY powers has to have their special effect set as part of character creation and concept. Allowing VPP's to change SFX for free is destroying the VSFX advantage and multipowers as cost effective build options.

[Hyper-Man]

I think many board members would argue that Magic as a Pool Only Limitation @ -1/4 means that all abilities created via the VPP are considered to have magic as a special effect in addition to whatever descriptive effect is being modelled. Example' date=' the player wants the character to be able to create a magical fire attack (ex: "Fireball"). It should be allowed with the caveate that any effects that work vs. Magic or Fire will work against the attack (ex: Doctor Strange could use an ability based on the Dispell power that only works vs. "Magic" vs. this "Fireball". The Human Torch would also arguably be able to apply his extra defenses vs. "Flame & Heat" vs. the same "Fireball" even though his defenses aren't magical in nature. Usually, Magic Only at the -1/2 value is used as a shorthand all of the above plus all abilities also are considered to be Spells. This is similar to how the VPP only Advantages [u']No Roll Required & 0 Phase to Change [/u]used to be combined as the Cosmic Advantage that on the surface appeared to indicate a "Cosmic" special effect was being used (which was not the case at all).

See, doing it that way allows the powers in my VPP, by virtue of their "limitation," to have amplified effect against Superman AND Mr. Freeze. That's not a limitation, that's an advantage.

 

There are advantages and drawbacks which balance out. But hey, you asked for comments. I didn't realize you were fishing for an argument.

 

[Andrew Cermak]

Champions Powers has a little sidebar on page 6 talking about the difference between Origin SFX and Manifestation SFX, and how while they are usually the same they don't have to be. It specifically uses the example of a supermage's Firebolt originating with the Magic SFX and manifesting with the Fire SFX.

 

A Magic Only VPP just means that all the powers have to originate as Magic, just as a Gadget Pool typically means they all have to originate as Technology. Magic Man can have a Fireball spell in his VPP, just as Gadget Man can build a flamethrower.

 

Whether it's appropriate that Magic Only is pegged as a -1/4 Limitation whereas Technology Only is apparently judged to be a -0 is a separate discussion.

 

(Now, if someone did want a VPP that only permitted Magic as both the Origin and Manifestation, I'd say that's worth at least a -1/2 Limitation instead of a -1/4).

[ghost-angel]

Since you've already decided on the outcome there's little reason for any of us to post anymore. Cool thread bro.

 

Andrew already pointed out exactly where and how your side of the argument fails.