Leap acceleration

[Doug McCrae]

In Hero 6e, does a leaping character continue to accelerate once they are airborne?

 

"Acceleration with Leaping, whether it’s a single-Phase or multiple-Phase Leap, is the same as for any other form of movement." - page 243, Volume 1: Character Creation

 

"A character can add or subtract up to 5m velocity per meter he moves, up to his full Combat Movement velocity." - page 156, Volume 1: Character Creation

 

So would a character with Leap 40m need to travel a distance of 8m before reaching maximum combat velocity? This doesn't square with my conception of how jumping typically works, where all acceleration occurs at the start, before leaving the ground.

[Hyper-Man]

In Hero 6e, does a leaping character continue to accelerate once they are airborne?

 

"Acceleration with Leaping, whether it’s a single-Phase or multiple-Phase Leap, is the same as for any other form of movement." - page 243, Volume 1: Character Creation

 

"A character can add or subtract up to 5m velocity per meter he moves, up to his full Combat Movement velocity." - page 156, Volume 1: Character Creation

 

So would a character with Leap 40m need to travel a distance of 8m before reaching maximum combat velocity? This doesn't square with my conception of how jumping typically works, where all acceleration occurs at the start, before leaving the ground.

 

You've got it right per RAW. This is why I always include Combat Acceleration/Deceleration (+1/4) in any Leaping builds.

[Killer Shrike]

Yeah, this is one of those areas where rules elegance (treat movement powers similarly) trumps common sense. Feel free to ignore it in the interests of common sense, and have Leap act as you think it should. I do.

[Lucius]

I am not physicist, but as I understand it, a leaping creature, like a thrown object, is at maximum acceleration when leaving the ground, decelerates until reaching the highest point, then accelerates again until hitting the ground with approximately the force with which it was launched.

 

I just don't foresee the issue coming up often enough to justify Hyper Man's solution of a mandatory Advantage just to make Leaping work as it really does. Your mileage (and acceleration) may differ.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary foresees it coming up every four years

 

[Hyper-Man]

I am not physicist, but as I understand it, a leaping creature, like a thrown object, is at maximum acceleration when leaving the ground, decelerates until reaching the highest point, then accelerates again until hitting the ground with approximately the force with which it was launched.

 

I just don't foresee the issue coming up often enough to justify Hyper Man's solution of a mandatory Advantage just to make Leaping work as it really does. Your mileage (and acceleration) may differ.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary foresees it coming up every four years

If I were GM, I would not require the Advantage to make it work in a common sense fashion. Unfortunately I have too often encountered GM's that default to a "did you purchase the power that way?" mentality that turns into a no-win situation at game time (argue rules during game and you run afoul of etiquette). As a result, I tend to make my characters as silly-GM proof as possible upfront. It can have the positive benefit of getting them to ask questions like "why did you purchase that combination of Advantages here?" and I can then explain what RAW has to say on the subject BEFORE the game session. If they house rule it unnecessary on the spot, all the better.

[Lucius]

You have a point. Of course, to really bend the game rules to fit the rules of physics, you would also need a Limitation of some kind, to represent that the leap is entirely ballistic - for example, that at the "midpoint" or highest point, acceleration will be zero. So if a character leaps up to hit a flying target that is at the limit of upward leap, there would be no velocity damage added.

 

That's assuming anyone wants to get that simulationist about it. I'd rather not get that complicated.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Bending a palindromedary

 

[Doug McCrae]

I am not physicist, but as I understand it, a leaping creature, like a thrown object, is at maximum acceleration when leaving the ground, decelerates until reaching the highest point, then accelerates again until hitting the ground with approximately the force with which it was launched.

 

I just don't foresee the issue coming up often enough to justify Hyper Man's solution of a mandatory Advantage just to make Leaping work as it really does. Your mileage (and acceleration) may differ.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary foresees it coming up every four years

As I understand it, the damage of Move By and Move Through type maneuvers is based on velocity, so it would be an issue for a leaping character using them. Currently I'm working on a jedi PC for a Star Wars game that has Leap 40m and Passing Strike. Without Combat Acceleration/Deceleration, the PC would have to be at least 8m away from a target to deal full damage.

[TheRealDeal]

The whole acceleration thing is messed up anyway from a real world point of view, so I think it was meant to be used to act as a sort of balance on Move By/Through and as another balance to high speed characters to give them another "turn mode" like thing to deal with to give high speeds some more "real world" limits. I would not read into it anything more than this, just use it as a tool to balance higher speeds for determining Effective Velocity for purposes of Move By/Through type things and bring in some more maneuverability limits, otherwise, you should probably ignore it for all other considerations, especially real world stuff.

 

To demonstrate by point about real world acceleration and velocity:

 

Using the example given in the text on page 156 V1 you have a speed 40m character. Lets give them a SPD 3 just to make the math simpler. So for a speed 3 you have this character with a full velocity of 40m x 3 SPD = 120m per Turn (12 seconds) or 120m/12 sec = 10 m/s velocity at full speed. You could also get this same value by noting that for a SPD 3 each Phase you get comprises 4 seconds (12/SPD = Seconds per Phase). So with a 40m per Phase you get 40m/4 sec = 10 m/s as well. Either way, you have a full velocity of 10 m/s. Thus, if already moving at your full velocity of 40m which is 10 m/s, you then cover a distance of 40 m in the 4 seconds of your Phase, which is how the rules are supposed to work, but this only works if you assume you go from 0 m/s to 10 m/s more or less instantly so you are able to move at 10 m/s for the full 4 seconds of your Phase to actually move 40 m with a full move.

 

Now, however, by the rules, you can only achieve 5m of your 40m move during the first 1m moved. Then you get up to 10m of the full 40m during your next 1m, and so on until you reach the full 40m by 8m. Lets convert this into a real world velocity. If I can only be moving with a velocity of 5m out of my 40m then I am moving at 1/8th my full speed (5/40 = 1/8) which means 10 m/s (full speed) x 1/8 = 1.25 m/s. So until I finish moving that first 1 m, my velocity is only 1.25 m/s. But this means it takes me 1 m / 1.25 m/s = 0.8 seconds to actually finish moving that first meter. Then when I finish moving that first 1 m, I speed up to 10m out of 40m which is 2.5 m/s actual velocity. It then takes me 1 m / 2.5 m/s = 0.4 seconds to finish moving that second 1 m distance. If you do this for the first 7 of the 1 m distances you have to move to finally reach full velocity, the total time to cover these 7 m is: 0.8+0.4+0.267+0.2+0.16+0.133+0.114 = 2.07 seconds, we will just round it off to an even 2 seconds for sake of ease. Thus it took me (again using "real world" physics) 2 seconds to actually move 7 meters. I have used up half my phase now (4 seconds for my Phase) just to move 7 m and finally get up to my full 40m (10 m/s) velocity.

 

Here is the funny part, if I actually want to STOP at the end of my Phase (say I want to make a full move of 40 m next to my friend and then use Heal on him to save his life on my next action), rather than just get up to speed to keep moving, I must now decelerate to a velocity of 0 again. Well, by the rules I must also do this in 5m steps. As you can see, I have only 2 seconds left to my Phase having used the first 2 seconds to get up to my full velocity and only covering 7 m in the process. I now must begin to decelerate immediately, as it takes me 2 seconds to do so and get back down to 0 velocity so I can stop where I want to go. The time and distance covered is the same during acceleration as it is for deceleration if they are at the same rate of 5m per 1 m covered. So I spend 4 seconds (my Phase) moving up to full velocity and then back down again to 0, and managed to cover a distance of only 14 m in the process! So my 40m Fly really only lets me move 14 actual meters if I start from rest and want to end my move at rest.

 

So you can see that you should be ignoring this rule for all purposes other than using it to determine the "Effective Velocity" you can attain for damage or whatever from a Move By/Through or whatever else you need it for. So it really does not matter if you are Leaping or Running or Flying, this rule has no real bearing on how you really are moving, it only serves as a game system artifact to help balance move powers and give them limitations that give a real world feel for the need to speed up and slow down and the hindrances that can cause, just ignore them for any other purpose.

 

So it is not really a problem that Leaping uses this rule, as it is just for balance, it does not in any way reflect how you really are moving to get from point A to point B. In order to do that, you really have to be able to achieve your full velocity instantly and stop on a literal dime as well. This is one of those areas where you simply have to "suspend your disbelief" for this area, and just realize it is a tool that achieves what you want, allowing you to move in simple ways and also giving some "real world feel" to it as well, but do not try to delve into it beyond that, as it all breaks down.

 

[Hyper-Man]

One more thing worth noting.

 

A character does not actually need to make a full move to be able to use his full combat velocity.

 

There is a FAQ entry for this but that feature of the forum is still down with the search afaik.

 

In lieu of that here is the best supporting evidence I can provide at the moment.

 

from 6e2 page 70:

 

A character can perform a Move Through as a Half Phase Action. If he wants to do that, he can only make a Half Move toward his target, but in most cases that’s enough to accelerate to full velocity using the movement rules, so it won’t change the calculation of CVs or damage/effect. However, it’s also possible to perform a Move Through as a Full Phase Action — at the end of a Full Move. In fact, that’s how it’s most often used.

[Greywind]

Leap doesn't necessarily mean "travel from point A, land at point B". The Beast is a good example of continuous bouncing leaps for movement.

[Lucius]

Really? Are you sure that, in game terms, that's not a Special Effect for Running?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Are you sure I'm not a Special Effect of a Palindromedary?

[Greywind]

Can't it be either? Beast has been described as a leaper.

[Hyper-Man]

I've seen suggestions on similar threads to allow multiple shorter leaps if the character makes an Acrobatics roll.

[Hyper-Man]

I've seen suggestions on similar threads to allow multiple shorter leaps if the character makes an Acrobatics roll.

 

 

....per leap additional "leap" but I would encourage basing the core of the build on Flying with Limitations instead of starting with Leaping. This way the 'true' active points are still clearly shown which can be important if the final ability is to be included in a Framework.

[bigbywolfe]

Can't it be either? Beast has been described as a leaper.

Not if you read how Leap works. I mean, you can ignore Mechanics in favor of SFX, but I don't know why you would in this case. Is Beast limited to only jump in one direction for X number of meters without turning regardless of how many times he jumps in that stretch? If he can make 10m jumps but can only turn every 30m (he has Leaping of 30, you can't turn mid leap and landing, turning, then leaping again is another move) then sure, give him Leaping.

 

If not, I would look at either modifying Leaping (which requires GM permission and will vary from GM/group to GM/group) or start with a different Power like Running or limited Flight.