Expanded Effect too expensive or Power Defense too good?

[Christougher]

In 5th Edition, Drain 2d6 of a specific Characteristic or Power was 20 AP. It cost 12 points to be immune, or about half as much.

 

If the advantage All Powers of SFX(+2) is applied, it costs 60 AP but is still completely stopped by that 12 points of Power Defense, or one fifth as much.

 

6th Edition made it worse, doubling the cost of the advantage(+4), so 100 AP of an attack is blocked by one eigth of that in defense.

 

I have a problem with the base power ignoring the effects of a +2 (or +4!) advantage. Shouldn't some kind of an advantage to Power Defense be required to protect multiple effects simultaneously?

 

Chris.

[psyber624]

Not really, don't forget that the cost of the advantage basically is allowing you to use a Drain against ALL the powers of that sfx at once, so the cost needs to be similar to buying the powers individually. If you bought for instance Drain Energy Blast 2d6, Drain Force Field 2d6, Drain Entangle 2d6, etc. etc. etc. seperately each one of them would be affected by the targets PwD individually. The cost of the advantage is STILL cheaper than buying all the relevant Drains individually, so there is no cause for PwD to be limited vs that attack. The reason its expensive is because of the range of abilities, NOT because you have a more powerful drain, if you want your Drain to be more powerful then you buy more dice, you shouldn't get extra effect just because you are also getting to affect a bunch of abilities at once.

[Hyper-Man]

Also keep in mind that the Expanded Effect Advantage is unecessary vs. Abilities built with the Unified Power Limitation.

[JasonPacker]

I'm new at this, but how is Power Defense being cheaper than every possible drain any different than PD being cheaper than every possible physical attack, with different special effects?

[Christougher]

I'm new at this, but how is Power Defense being cheaper than every possible drain any different than PD being cheaper than every possible physical attack, with different special effects?

Because when an advantage (like Armor Piercing) is applied to an attack, the defense is less useful, not more so. It only takes 12 PD to negate a 2d6 punch, but if that same 12 PD negated a 100 AP punch, that wouldn't seem strange?

[JasonPacker]

I'm new at this, but how is Power Defense being cheaper than every possible drain any different than PD being cheaper than every possible physical attack, with different special effects?

But surely you could apply the same Armor Piercing to the Drain - making the defenses less useful. And apply Variable Special Effects to the Blast and not see any such reduction in defensive potential.

[psyber624]

I'm new at this, but how is Power Defense being cheaper than every possible drain any different than PD being cheaper than every possible physical attack, with different special effects?

Exactly. Expanded Effect doesn't increase the POWER of the Drain, it increases its scope. All advantages will increase the AP cost of a power but only a handful will also enable the increased cost power to deal with defenses better (AP, AVAD, NND, Penetrating off the top of my head). All the other advantages make the power better in some other fashion without increasing its effect against defenses. And that is how it should be otherwise you easily get into abuses with really cheap Base costs (like a 1d6 Drain) that then tack on huge advantages.

 

If you want to handle defenses better buy more dice or one of the advantages listed above.

 

And yes, a 12 PD can negate a 100 AP punch if you just keep adding advantages to the punch that don't affect defenses.

[TheRealDeal]

From what I have read in these very forums (cannot find the actual thread, seems the forum search engine crashes on me each time), the 6E Drain is actually more potent than the 5E version. For one it now has range, whereas the 5E version did not. So DEX and EGO and END becomes easier to drain in 6E due to their lower cost compared to 5E. DEX costs 2 in 6E vs. 3 in 5E. EGO is 1 vs. 2 and END is 1/5 vs. 1/2. Although for END, in 6E it counts as a defense characteristic, so it effectively counts as if it costs 2/5 which is still a bit cheaper than the 1/2 in 5E.

 

Thus, if anything, Drain becomes more powerful in 6E, not less. You can also link a Drain Power Defense to your Drain if you want to simulate a Drain that is taxing (was going to say draining) to the defenses of the target. They resist in full the first time, but then they lose some Power Defense from the linked Drain Power Defense, and next time cannot resist your main Drain quite as well.

[bigbywolfe]

From what I have read in these very forums (cannot find the actual thread, seems the forum search engine crashes on me each time), the 6E Drain is actually more potent than the 5E version. For one it now has range, whereas the 5E version did not. So DEX and EGO and END becomes easier to drain in 6E due to their lower cost compared to 5E. DEX costs 2 in 6E vs. 3 in 5E. EGO is 1 vs. 2 and END is 1/5 vs. 1/2. Although for END, in 6E it counts as a defense characteristic, so it effectively counts as if it costs 2/5 which is still a bit cheaper than the 1/2 in 5E.

 

Thus, if anything, Drain becomes more powerful in 6E, not less. You can also link a Drain Power Defense to your Drain if you want to simulate a Drain that is taxing (was going to say draining) to the defenses of the target. They resist in full the first time, but then they lose some Power Defense from the linked Drain Power Defense, and next time cannot resist your main Drain quite as well.

Good summary and well said.

[Lucius]

The forum is picking up some great new participants. Everything I wanted to say was already said.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Aid Palindromedary

[Hyper-Man]

Also keep in mind that the Expanded Effect Advantage is unecessary vs. Abilities built with the Unified Power Limitation.

Here is something relevant from my old 5e Justice League thread.

The differences in the cost of Drain between 5e and 6e is irrelevant.

The 'Affected by Adjustments as an EC' Limitation was the 5e version of the Unified Limitation.

 

Re: The Classic Justice League starting members on 350 points

 

I'm changing course here a little bit and working on one of Superman's signature villains and arguably one of the hardest to translate into HERO - The Parasite.

 

 

Like all of the heroes, I want to build him on 350 points as well. I think this is possible because Superman and all of the other 'naturally powered' heroes (of this thread) abilities have been built using the 'Affected by Adjustments as an EC' Limitation. By building all the heroes with this I avoid having to build Parasite's Drain with the 'All Powers Simultaneously (+2)' level of Variable Effect.

 

With this in mind I would appreciate any feedback regarding the following power set for Parasite:

 

36 Do You Feel Yourself Getting Weaker?: Drain Any Biological SFX Ability 3d6+1 (standard effect: 10 points), any [biological] power one at a time (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (1/2 END; +1/4), Delayed Return Rate (points return at the rate of 5 per Hour; +1) (82 Active Points); Limited Special Effect Only vs. Biological Abilities (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Limited Power Skin Contact Required (-1/4) 3

 

36 Hurts Doesn't It?: Energy Blast 6d6, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Attack Versus Limited Defense (Power Defense; +1 1/2) (90 Active Points); No Range (-1/2), Restrainable (-1/2), Linked (Do You Feel Yourself Getting Weaker?; -1/4), Limited Power Skin Contact Required (-1/4)

 

128 Now I Have Your Powers!: Variable Power Pool, 100 base + 28 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (200 Active Points); Character Has No Choice Regarding How Powers Change (Also Gains Biological Disadvantages ; -1/2), VPP Powers Can Be Changed Only In Given Circumstance (Linked To Drain; -1/2), Conditional Power Powers Fade At Same Rate As Drain Recovers (-1/2), Limited Class Of Powers Available Limited (-1/2), Limited Power Abilities Gained Proportional ToThose Drained (-1/2)

0 1) Multiform (500 Character Points in the most expensive form) (100 Active Points) Real Cost: 100

[Kraven Kor]

Yeah, even a 2d6 END Drain now is... just wrong. Roll a 10, suck up 50 END. Heroic setting? Say hello to unconsciousness!

[Christougher]

Yeah, even a 2d6 END Drain now is... just wrong. Roll a 10, suck up 50 END. Heroic setting? Say hello to unconsciousness!

Pretty sure that END counts as "defensive" and is halved in effect. Plus, END loss alone can't knock you out - only attempting to expend it after you've lost it.

[Hyper-Man]

Good catch!

 

From 6e1 page 141

ADJUSTMENT POWERS

Defense Powers:

To balance the usefulness of defenses in the HERO System, the effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved: any Defense Power; the Characteristics CON, DCV, DMCV, PD, ED, REC, END, BODY, and STUN; and any other ability the GM designates as primarily defensive in nature. EGO, PRE, Desolidification, and similar abilities do not count as 'defensive abilities'€ for this purpose even though they have defensive functions.

[psyber624]

Yeah, even a 2d6 END Drain now is... just wrong. Roll a 10, suck up 50 END. Heroic setting? Say hello to unconsciousness!

And your forgetting a couple of other things as well. Rolling a 10 is actually pretty lucky (8.3% chance of getting a 10). Its also a no range attack by default so will only work in melee. And that costs 20 points. Also, if your opponent has any PwD the attack will quickly drop off in value. Yeah, END drains are still pretty powerful (honestly moreso in Superheroic than Heroic tho due to the prevalance of Equipment/Foci in Heroic which doesn't usually require much END).