How to Build: Rapid Reload as a skill or talent?

[Kraven Kor]

Would it just be a hand-wave custom skill like Fast Draw?  But that doesn't parse; "Fast Draw" raises your DEX by the amount you make the roll by so far as when you act in a phase, right?

But reloading takes X time based on the build of the gun / weapon being reloaded.  Typically, using the charges modifier on a power, reloading is a full phase action to reload 1 charge or 1 clip, yes?
 

So the next logical thought:  +1 Speed (only to reload.)  But that, too, doesn't quite parse - to be legal, it would have to go through the "changing speed" rules, or - and this is a stretch so far as "Rules as Written" - they could only use it to reload between their normal speed phases (speed 4 character could fire on phase 3, reload during phase 4 or 5, and fire again on phase 6.)

 

So, a quick search of the forums finds naught; how do?

[bigbywolfe]

Fast Draw turns drawing a weapon into a 0-phase action and can also change reload time. To my knowledge it doesn't change your DEX order at all.

[Vondy]

Its already subsumed under Fast Draw.

 

However, if you feel that is too broad, you could have a professional skill entitled "gun handling."

 

This could be used to cover speed-loading, clearing jams, and the like.

[Tasha]

Its already subsumed under Fast Draw.

 

However, if you feel that is too broad, you could have a professional skill entitled "gun handling."

 

This could be used to cover speed-loading, clearing jams, and the like.

I would probably handle Clearing Jams and other "gun Maintence" with Weaponsmith

[bigbywolfe]

I know plenty of people who can clear a stuck shotgun round out of the chamber that wouldn't even have the slightest inkling about how to go about "smithing" a weapon.

[Vondy]

I would probably handle Clearing Jams and other "gun Maintence" with Weaponsmith

 

A gunsmith has specialized skills that take years really master. It goes far beyond simple gun maintenance and handling skills. I've known plenty of people who have been trained to clear a jam who wouldn't know how to strip, clean, and re-assemble their firearm. And even knowing how to do that "maintenance" task, as well as being able to identify the problems, doesn't make one anything akin to a gunsmith. Honestly, I would assume anyone with a relevant weapon familiarity skill could maintain it, and anyone with fast draw could clear jams, etc.

[Vondy]

dupe

[Kraven Kor]

Huh.  I'll have to re-read the Fast Draw rules then.  /shrug

[bigdamnhero]

I think you're confusing Fast Draw with Lightning Reflexes, and/or the Hipshot Maneuver. If you wanted Fast Draw to only apply to reloading, that would be a decent Limitation depending on how often reloading comes up in your campaign compared to drawing.

 

I know plenty of people who can clear a stuck shotgun round out of the chamber that wouldn't even have the slightest inkling about how to go about "smithing" a weapon.

Yeah, I'm one of those people. But RAW (6e2 p207) does say Weaponsmith is the relavenat skill to clear a jam faster: 1/2 Phase with Weaponsmith (no roll), instead of Full Phase without it. I can see allowing the character to make a Fast Draw roll to clear it quickly if he/she doesn't have Weaponsmith.

[PaycheckHero]

A gunsmith has specialized skills that take years really master.

"Gunsmith" can mean more than one thing--there are people who repair guns who couldn't build one. But a real gunsmith is essentially a specialized machinist, and take as long to train as a machinist. A real machinist can pick up the gun-specific stuff up pretty fast. But it's really a whole range of skills, from replacing sights (something simple enough that many of us can do it to our own guns) to building up a rifle from components (I could *probably* do at least some of this in simple cases where I was careful about buying components that didn't need modification, except for tools--I don't even have headspace gauges), to building one from scratch, which is where the real machinist's work comes in and which I certainly couldn't do). (The gunsmith in my old home town had the equipment, but told me that after he'd bored out his first barrel as a learning project he never made another one because it was so, shall we say, boring <grin>).

 

I've known plenty of people who have been trained to clear a jam who wouldn't know how to strip, clean, and re-assemble their firearm.

Let's be clear: clearing a jam is part of knowing how to shoot. If you don't know how to tap and rack, then in real-world terms you don't even have the weapon familiarity yet. If you meet someone who "can shoot" but can't clear a jam, it means they can shoot at a range but aren't trained to shoot in a real situation. The hero WF is for people who can use their skill in, ah, "serious social situations."

 

As for field-stripping, while that's a separate skill from basic operation it's too easy to be worth a separate Hero System skill. Anyone who is a serious user of guns also knows how to maintain their guns in the field so they remain actually useful. In most games, it would not make sense to split this out from the weapon familiarity. Certainly not for heroes.

 

And even knowing how to do that "maintenance" task, as well as being able to identify the problems, doesn't make one anything akin to a gunsmith.

While true, it also doesn't even make you able to repair problems. I would say that does *not* come as part of the WF. I also would not distinguish between repair skills and actual gunmaking skills and just use the Hero gunsmith skill for both. If you really want to be realistic, you would just allow a higher gunsmithing skill to do more, since any gunsmith who can build up a firearm from scratch can also do simpler repairs. What I can get away with doing is probably just having an 8- *at best* and getting bonuses for simple things.

 

Honestly, I would assume anyone with a relevant weapon familiarity skill could maintain it, and anyone with fast draw could clear jams, etc.

You *do not* need fast draw to clear jams, at least in real life. Most shooters can clear a jam, since if they can't they really can't even shoot without a buddy who does have his WF. But most of them don't have fast draw and would be at risk of shooting themselves in the leg if they tried it. Clearing is part of the WF. However, I'd probably let someone make a fast-draw roll to attempt to clear the jam more quickly, since that process can be practiced just like the draw.

[bigdamnhero]

I don't believe the question is whether or not you can clear a jam if you don't have Weaponsmith - clearly you can. The question is if having Weaponsmith makes you faster at clearing jams. [shrug] RAW say yes, I could argue either way, GM's call.

[Kraven Kor]

Thanks for the additional conversation about clearing jams.  

[PaycheckHero]

The RAW were written by someone who didn't know guns and the shooting world that well, as is occasionally obvious. What lets you clear a jam fast is experience--experience in general, and experience with that particular gun (they can have quirks). A gunsmith generally has experience, but not uniquely so by virtue of being a gunsmith (and sometimes he doesn't get near as much time at the range as his better customers, because he's too busy gunsmithing). A competitor in one of the action shooting sports is likely to be better (though you can be both), because he's spending a lot more time practicing the relevant skills.

 

Now if you manage to jam your gun so that it can't be cleared in combat time or even by most shooters at all (this could happen with malfunctioning or misloaded ammunition, for example), then gunsmithing would be a logical skill. Have a head separation that leaves a lot of the cartridge stuck in the chamber? That's a pain, and a gunsmith probably has the right tools at hand. If the head is still on the cartridge, then the best bet is probably to drill a hole, tap it for threads, and then screw in a machine screw so you can get a grip to pull it out. Could I do it? Well, yes, but a gunsmith would again have the tools at hand and do it much faster.

 

The key here is that nothing in a gunsmith's area of expertise involves doing things *really fast*. IDPA and 3-Gun shooters do things really fast, but in fact you do not want your gunsmith to do things really fast for the same reason you don't want your guitar tech to do his work really fast. But the conversation is about clearing simple jams in combat time, for which gunsmithing is definitely not the relevant skill.

 

You can use the RAW if you like. I never do when they conflict with basic knowledge I happen to have, but styles vary I guess.

[Hyper-Man]

Fast Draw turns drawing a weapon into a 0-phase action and can also change reload time. To my knowledge it doesn't change your DEX order at all.

Fastdraw becomes relevant for Dex off's when both parties are using Held Actions.

[Tasha]

The thing is Clearing jams is a very narrow thing to make a PC buy a special skill for. I think that for that reason alone it was moved into Weaponsmith skill. My GM for the stargate game had everyone buy Weaponsmith at an 8- to cover basic maintence tasks. It's one of those things with the system. Do you create a custom item that covers this edge case or just hold your nose and use what is already RAW.

When I was taught to shoot my parents and grandpa made sure that I knew how to clean my rifle and how it all came apart. We were shooting Bolt actions and revolvers, so the mechanisms weren't that complex. I haven't shot anything in decades, so it never occured to me that someone might shoot without knowing how to take care of their guns. Rural backgrounds FTW LOL.

[Kraven Kor]

Note that I am not asking about clearing jams (though the tangential conversation is helpful.)

 

I'm specifically talking about quickly reloading a weapon.

[PaycheckHero]

The thing is Clearing jams is a very narrow thing to make a PC buy a special skill for. I think that for that reason alone it was moved into Weaponsmith skill.

I agree that it would be unreasonable to ask for a separate skill for clearing jams. The problem is only that they moved it into the wrong skill; fast-draw is the closest thing we have to "advanced weapon handling" such as would be taught in an intermediate or greater self-defense class or for competition (which for IDPA and IPSC are *supposed* to exercise the same skills, even though in some ways that's questionable). Everyone with a WF should be able to do a tap-rack-bang to clear a basic jam, and with fast-draw you should be able to do it faster because that's part of moving fast, smooth, and accurate.

 

My GM for the stargate game had everyone buy Weaponsmith at an 8- to cover basic maintence tasks. It's one of those things with the system. Do you create a custom item that covers this edge case or just hold your nose and use what is already RAW.

Certainly if you want to have that in a skill, I agree that a familiarity with weaponsmith is the way to do it. The only real question is whether you require the familiarity just to run a patch through the barrel. I'd say if you can't do a basic cleaning you probably don't even have the WF; technically you could certainly learn the one skill without the other, it's just that people don't usually do so. I guess if you *only* rented guns at the range, this would be possible. However, you can't practice realistic shooting at most ranges so you wouldn't be able to practice fast-draw there (positively forbidden at most indoor ranges here unless the range has been rented for a class). Probably not even the full WF since in Hero WF includes being able to draw without shooting yourself. Even if not trying to fast-draw doing it safely requires more practice and is much less universal than a basic cleaning, and most ranges here will not let you practice the draw at all without being in a class or something. Trying to do it fast without practice is definitely a recipe for trouble.

 

Now for field-stripping, which you want to do for a full cleaning anyway, it starts to make sense to require the gunsmithing familiarity. So I guess I agree with your GM in general, though I don't know if he and I would agree on which parts are just implied in the basic WF.

 

When I was taught to shoot my parents and grandpa made sure that I knew how to clean my rifle and how it all came apart. We were shooting Bolt actions and revolvers, so the mechanisms weren't that complex. I haven't shot anything in decades, so it never occured to me that someone might shoot without knowing how to take care of their guns. Rural backgrounds FTW LOL.

Rural kids FTW indeed. The army thinks so too--they did a study that said the backgrounds that best correlated with spotting IEDs and ambushes were rural kids who did a lot of hunting and urban kids that grew up in very bad neighborhoods.

 

Worrying about jams is more or less a semi-auto concern anyway, which are less common in the country for some good reasons. A bolt-action shouldn't jam on you, and as for revolvers--what's a jam? And whether your semi-auto ever jams varies tremendously for reasons not easily captured with a rule. The reason I don't like games with jamming rules is that IRL you don't carry guns that are likely to jam at the rate most games think they might jam. 1911s are notorious for being finicky about hollow-point ammo (it being designed for military ball ammo), and before I decided to rely on mine I quit cleaning it and eyeballed how many rounds it took before it started to jam. I forget the number but I think it was in the neighborhood of 500, which I judged adequate since after the test I would be cleaning it after use. Of course, I also found out what precise hollowpoint ammo the manufacturer had specifically throated it for and only use that.

 

The point of the boring story: if you want to use jamming rules, you should probably let players reduce that chance with appropriate gun-handling *and* gunsmithing skills. Gunsmithing if someone with the skill worked it over for a carry gun, and additionally gun-handling if you know how to shoot and care for a semi-auto. Honestly in many games it isn't worth the trouble. Good guns with a proper carry job and care just don't jam very often, if they did you better believe people wouldn't carry them. Absolute certainty that the thing will go off when asked is more important than the number of rounds you carry, which is why double-action revolvers still have their place. I guess the best place to use jamming rules would be for NPCs with poor training (I don't think ganstas are known for their technical firearms knowledge or their rigorous maintenance schedule) and people without a WF, who may limp-wrist it and force a failure-to-feed even if the gun itself is perfect.

 

Huh, I never thought of that. How many gamers even know that incorrect shooting technique can make any recoil action fail to feed? Oh, well, few probably care either.

[Vondy]

 

You *do not* need fast draw to clear jams, at least in real life.

 

You don't need it to clear a jam, but you do need it to clear the jam without wasting actions on it!

 

Anyone with WF could clear the jam if they take a phase or more to do so.  But doing it in a split second and not missing a beat?

 

That takes specialized training and repetitive drilling until its automatic - ergo, Fast Draw.

[Vondy]

Note that I am not asking about clearing jams (though the tangential conversation is helpful.)

 

I'm specifically talking about quickly reloading a weapon.

 

Reloading without wasting an action is subsumed in fast draw.

[PaycheckHero]

You don't need it to clear a jam, but you do need it to clear the jam without wasting actions on it!

I agree, but I think I said so plainly. What I don't like is involving gunsmithing in practical shooting skills, as it doesn't make sense for the reasons described. Fast-draw is effectively Hero's combat shooting skill (except for the basic parts subsumed in WF, like not blowing your foot off by getting your finger in the trigger guard while yanking the gun out of the holster), and clearing jams rapidly and smoothly is part of combat shooting.

[Tasha]

We never had to deal with jams much, but we did have to deal with misfires or duds. Those always made me nervous and very careful when I cleared the breech.

Perhaps Fast Draw should be the quick chance to clear a Jam. It's easy to get caught up in what YOU think Weaponsmith does IRL. Sometimes we need to separate our expectations a bit with the way the game was made to work. Weaponsmith in Hero allows someone to not only make and modify weapons, but to also repair them and do basic maintence.
6e1 pg 95 "WEAPONSMITH A character with this Intellect Skill can make, maintain, and repair various types of weapons. He can also identify the origin, uses, and effects of any weapon he’s familiar with or has time to analyze."

As for the OP. I would allow a player to use Fast Draw to reload a weapon faster than normal (probably one place faster than normal, unless they make a roll by 5 or more)

[Vondy]

I agree, but I think I said so plainly. What I don't like is involving gunsmithing in practical shooting skills, as it doesn't make sense for the reasons described. Fast-draw is effectively Hero's combat shooting skill (except for the basic parts subsumed in WF, like not blowing your foot off by getting your finger in the trigger guard while yanking the gun out of the holster), and clearing jams rapidly and smoothly is part of combat shooting.

 

Then we agree. And, since I have no emotional compulsion to pontificate about guns at any length, my work here is done.

[Kraven Kor]

WHAT???  NO!!  ARGUE MORE FOR MY ENTERTAINMENT!!  

 

But seriously, thanks, I got my answer and then an answer to the question I hadn't asked (as I am sure jams will come up.)

 

I think there is an argument for using either or both, as appropriate.  Maybe even expanding on that to where Fast Draw clears a Jam, but Weaponsmith would be needed for a "burnout" or "misfire."  

 

Thanks!

[L. Marcus]

Unless a gun is quite thoroughly jammed, then the appropriate Weapon Focus should be all that's needed to clear it. 6E1, p. 94: "A character with a WF knows how to perform basic cleaning and maintenance on a weapon he's Familiar with, but he can't repair it, modify it, or the like (that requires Weaponsmith.)"

 

For my part, what weapon familiarity I have is military basic training. I can clear a dud round or the like, but I do not even come close to have Weaponsmith 8-. If, in play, a gun would jam, and the character have the appropriate WF, I'd just rule that a DEX Roll would allow the character to keep going without losing any actions.

 

As for the original question, Quickdraw and Lightning Reflexes seems to suffice.