Magic in a Champions game?

[lemming]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Please keep the flames down a little.

 

Which part, specifically, are you saying is a misconception?

 

Probably that if one is in North America, that they don't have an appreciation for history, etc...

 

At least that's how this North American read it. But then again, I've got a thick skin.

[Blue Angel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by lemming

Probably that if one is in North America, that they don't have an appreciation for history, etc...

 

At least that's how this North American read it. But then again, I've got a thick skin.

 

You are right on that part. I apologize, and thick skin appreciated for keeping a civil discussion.

 

Actually I live in NA now so obviously it must be a great place to live. Though I am a little farther north.

 

I was hoping to get a response on my original reply to this post. The part when the flames first started erupting.

 

Did I mention the part about the smiting deflector?

[Law Dog]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

You are right on that part. I apologize, and thick skin appreciated for keeping a civil discussion.

 

Actually I live in NA now so obviously it must be a great place to live. Though I am a little farther north.

 

I was hoping to get a response on my original reply to this post. The part when the flames first started erupting.

 

Did I mention the part about the smiting deflector?

 

No flames, only a statement of fact. Again, I state, you are siting public misconception. Do you have some sort of reputable source for your analysis or not? What you are citing now is modern myth and revisionist history. In no academic circle will you find that such an argument is held anymore. You go on to state a definitive goal of "a certain religion" which you can neither prove or validate. In fact, certain arms of the early church came to the defense of accused witches which were being tried by the courts in countries such as The Netherlands and Denmark, when the people were being accused of things such as ruining crops via magicks.

 

Fact - the widespread persecution for witchcraft never happened. The events that actually happened were not notorious because they were typical of the times, but because they were exceptional. Same reason why folks will mention Jack the Ripper when talking about serial killing, when Jack's body count was amatuerish compaired to modern day monsters like Pedro Alonso Lopez or Lucas & Toole.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Magic in a Champions game?

 

Originally posted by EvilGM

A couple of questions for you:

 

1) How often does magic appear in your Champions game?

 

2) Is there a structure to it, or is it just like any other sfx?

 

There are three basic approaches to magic in any Hero system game:

 

1. It's a special effect than can explain any power set. In Champions this is the easiest route (it is pretty easy in other games, but it does give characters with magic a tremendous advantage over those who don't.

 

2. A single specific system of magic, encompassing specific skills and powers that interacxt in a specific way. This works pretty well in Fantasy Hero games, it provides a way to measure relative power of mages and limits their power so it can be matched by non-magic users. This is a little inflexible for Champions however, particularly because these limits now exist for mages and for no one else.

 

3. My favorite method for Champions is to develop a few different forms of 2 above for NPC mages and insist that PC mages either utilize one of those systems or design their own. The limitations of 2 exist, but there is variety and encouragement for characters to develop abilities that are not magic based.

[ZootSoot]

Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Actually the original European pagan concept of magic was as a force for good. It was used for healing, blessing crops and was pretty much in tune with nature. Using magic (witchcraft) for evil was supposed to result in suffering three times as much as you inflicted: the three-fold law. It was a certain religion that convinced the masses that all magic was evil. Which was a good excuse for raping and murdering innocent people that just happened to have different beliefs.

 

Beside, who else better to combat black magic than practitioners of white magic? Anyone trying to deny the good guys the powers of light is by definition evil and demonic.

 

...Activates smiting deflection shield.

 

This is not documentable but seems to be a construction of neo-pagan religious belief. This is not to say that magic was seen as exclusively evil, but we do not know. What we can see is that magic was somehing seen as a danger of the wilderness that people attempted to harness to protect themselves from the same threat. Over time more sophisticated ideas of the advantages of magical power developed. Still there are many traditions that any use of magic to directly benefit the user is innately evil (black magic). Magic is seen as extremely powerful in folklore tales (including fairy, folk, legend and myth) but as a relatively subtle power in day to day life. This fuels ideas of magic fading from the world over time, but not all folklore tales date from the past . . .

[Law Dog]

Re: Re: Magic in a Champions game?

 

Originally posted by ZootSoot

 

1. It's a special effect than can explain any power set. In Champions this is the easiest route (it is pretty easy in other games, but it does give characters with magic a tremendous advantage over those who don't.

 

 

This is the one that the GM has to watch in a Champions game, but in a Fantasy Hero game it's a must that the GM not allow it. I had a bad experience in a FH game many years back where the casters became what amounted to superbeings while the non-casters were basically reduced to worthless.

[Blue Angel]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Law Dog

No flames, only a statement of fact. Again, I state, you are siting public misconception. Do you have some sort of reputable source for your analysis or not? What you are citing now is modern myth and revisionist history. In no academic circle will you find that such an argument is held anymore. You go on to state a definitive goal of "a certain religion" which you can neither prove or validate. In fact, certain arms of the early church came to the defense of accused witches which were being tried by the courts in countries such as The Netherlands and Denmark, when the people were being accused of things such as ruining crops via magicks.

 

Fact - the widespread persecution for witchcraft never happened. The events that actually happened were not notorious because they were typical of the times, but because they were exceptional. Same reason why folks will mention Jack the Ripper when talking about serial killing, when Jack's body count was amatuerish compaired to modern day monsters like Pedro Alonso Lopez or Lucas & Toole.

 

I never stated any "definitive goal". What I said was that the statement magic=evil is characteristic of the kind of stigmatization used by organized religion to depopularize other belief systems. Persecutions of those with different beliefs have happened and religion has been used as the justification: even if not every day throughout history.

 

Religious beliefs have been used as the justification for persecutions by the few exceptions you have accurately referred to. It is the mode of thinking characterized by such statements as magic=evil that I am questioning. It is the stigmatizing of something, which is not necessarily an evil concept.

 

Though it is the definitive goal of any major belief system to become established as the most widely held belief. On occasion some get a little too overzealous. Unfortunately when a few crazies get their hands on religion the consequences can be extreme. This has been no different in the past than it is in the present.

 

Aside - Did I mention I don't believe in magic?

 

Just like some Germans protected some Jews during the Second World War there were some who would strive to protect the innocent throughout history. Again you are correct.

 

I can site an example.

 

The Cathars were an offshoot of Christianity that existed in Europe around the 11th and 12th centuries. After tolerating them for a while it was decided that they had to go. In the ensuing crusade there were some who sympathized with the Cathars who were their friends and associates. On July 21, 1209 there was a resulting siege of Beziers, France: one of many sieges of that cursade.

 

'The inhabitants of Beziers bravely refused the offer of the crusaders to deliver up the Cathars. A long Siege seemed to be ahead but the next day a group of those besieged tried a possibly unwise escape. They were pursued by a band of soldiers who succeeded in entering the town. The crusaders set fire to and massacred nearly all the population, almost twenty thousand people, even the seven thousand of them who had taken refuge in the Church of the Magdelene.

 

Faced with the hesitation of some crusaders to commit such horrific acts, Arnaud-Amaury, abbot of Citeaux, and spiritual leader of the crusade is truly said to have cried: "Kill them all! God will recognize his own!" In any case, this little phrase was reported ten years later by Cesair de Heisterbach, a Cistercian monk from Calogne. And the terrible warnings of Guillaume de Tudele, the author of the song of the crusades against Albigensians rang out: "Any castle which resists, any stubborn town shall be taken by force and reduced to a Charnel-house.. That no living being should be left, even newborn babies. Thus shall be sown healthy fear and no longer shall anyone care to defy the cross of God".' - Michele Aue - translated by Julliette Freyche.

 

Compared to some of these guys and many others including your modern example, Jack-the-Ripper is a puppy.

 

Anyway my point was and still is magic does not allways equal evil. That is 16th century's pop culture view.

 

And I just had to get started on this... Damn psycolocical limitation.

 

Allright that's it. Can't take it any more. I am turning off the smite shield.

 

So, go ahead, smite me.

 

P.S. What does this have to do with the original topic anyway?

[ZootSoot]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

I never stated any "definitive goal". What I said was that the statement magic=evil is characteristic of the kind of stigmatization used by organized religion to depopularize other belief systems. Persecutions of those with different beliefs have happened and religion has been used as the justification: even if not every day throughout history.

 

Religious beliefs have been used as the justification for persecutions by the few exceptions you have accurately referred to. It is the mode of thinking characterized by such statements as magic=evil that I am questioning. It is the stigmatizing of something, which is not necessarily an evil concept.

 

Though it is the definitive goal of any major belief system to become established as the most widely held belief. On occasion some get a little too overzealous. Unfortunately when a few crazies get their hands on religion the consequences can be extreme. This has been no different in the past than it is in the present.

 

Aside - Did I mention I don't believe in magic?

 

Just like some Germans protected some Jews during the Second World War there were some who would strive to protect the innocent throughout history. Again you are correct.

 

I can site an example.

 

The Cathars were an offshoot of Christianity that existed in Europe around the 11th and 12th centuries. After tolerating them for a while it was decided that they had to go. In the ensuing crusade there were some who sympathized with the Cathars who were their friends and associates. On July 21, 1209 there was a resulting siege of Beziers, France: one of many sieges of that cursade.

 

'The inhabitants of Beziers bravely refused the offer of the crusaders to deliver up the Cathars. A long Siege seemed to be ahead but the next day a group of those besieged tried a possibly unwise escape. They were pursued by a band of soldiers who succeeded in entering the town. The crusaders set fire to and massacred nearly all the population, almost twenty thousand people, even the seven thousand of them who had taken refuge in the Church of the Magdelene.

 

Faced with the hesitation of some crusaders to commit such horrific acts, Arnaud-Amaury, abbot of Citeaux, and spiritual leader of the crusade is truly said to have cried: "Kill them all! God will recognize his own!" In any case, this little phrase was reported ten years later by Cesair de Heisterbach, a Cistercian monk from Calogne. And the terrible warnings of Guillaume de Tudele, the author of the song of the crusades against Albigensians rang out: "Any castle which resists, any stubborn town shall be taken by force and reduced to a Charnel-house.. That no living being should be left, even newborn babies. Thus shall be sown healthy fear and no longer shall anyone care to defy the cross of God".' - Michele Aue - translated by Julliette Freyche.

 

Compared to some of these guys and many others including your modern example, Jack-the-Ripper is a puppy.

 

Anyway my point was and still is magic does not allways equal evil. That is 16th century's pop culture view.

 

And I just had to get started on this... Damn psycolocical limitation.

 

Allright that's it. Can't take it any more. I am turning off the smite shield.

 

So, go ahead, smite me.

 

P.S. What does this have to do with the original topic anyway?

 

The conflict with the Cathars was a response to a specific religious disagreement, it had nothing to do with the morality or practice of magic.

[Law Dog]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

 

Anyway my point was and still is magic does not always equal evil. That is 16th century's pop culture view.

 

 

Zoot is correct.

 

Also, the point you have tried to state above is actually a 20th/21st century fallacy about 16th century views. These were not homogenous-thinking, primative screwheads. No matter what movies or television shows you've been watching, they were actually thinking individuals walking the Earth at that time. Most people in Europe, then, like now, didn't believe in magick per se.

[zornwil]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Evil Magic

 

Originally posted by Law Dog

Zoot is correct.

 

Also, the point you have tried to state above is actually a 20th/21st century fallacy about 16th century views. These were not homogenous-thinking, primative screwheads. No matter what movies or television shows you've been watching, they were actually thinking individuals walking the Earth at that time. Most people in Europe, then, like now, didn't believe in magick per se.

 

I'm aware of this re the 16th century and, along those lines, read Durkheim's interpretation of the "witchcraft" crisis of Salem which notes how oddly exceptional the accusation of witchcraft was by then, it was an aberration not just in the colonies but certainly in Europe at that point.

 

However, wasn't there an extended period during the early Middle Ages (like just pre-Renaissance) where there was ongoing conflict between the Catholic church and the pagan holdovers? If not, would you please cite some sources as I'd like to read more on this. On a related aside, would you also say that the adapatation of preexisting holidays/seasonal rituals by early Christianity did not occur and is either a misconception or purely coincidental? I am not ascribing motive for that - I for one don't see any evidence it was done to displace the pagan religions (at least not early on) but was rather a matter of simple convenience. I am not interested in arguing the points, I am interested in texts (online or paper) from scholarly or otherwise accredited sources.

[zornwil]

As far as I could see, I didn't answer this one, maybe it was another thread. Magic is not common among the "regular" world but it is well known as some sort of force among the more powerful supers.

 

Recently 1 PC is getting more into magic so I've addressed it in more detail in my campaign. Information is at http://www.asterick.com/realschluss/x-champions/x-champions_setting/x-magic.htm

 

As far as general mechanics, supernatural forces have their own attacks and defenses (Supernatural Defense (SD), based on INT). I've done this for some time. I used to have supernatural attacks as fairly cheap, now I've been told they might be overpriced. That latter statement is probably true among powerful supers but because supernatural powers bypass all but SD, they can be very powerful against most mid-level supers and entirely useful against normals, so I'm not sure. In any case in this current campaign I wanted to discourage magic a little bit so that was another reason to cost it higher.

 

By the way, I based SD on INT rather than EGO not just to differentiate it from mental powers but also because it always seemed to me that brainy guys like Reed Richards and Batman held up against mystical powers fairly well (though granted they tend to have some considerable EGO too), and moreover some hard-core "science only" guys who might be higher INT ignore magic and aren't affected by it seemingly related to their "grounding" in science. Of course also it seems to me that magic would be the application of quick-wittedness and cleverness and ergo INT.

[zen_hydra]

I am dismayed at the obnoxiously Euro-centric views of magic being displayed. Magic as an institution for good has been, and in many places, is still practiced around the world. Magic has always been more about trying to better control / influence ones environment and very rarely about consorting with evil spirits just for the hell-of-it. Would someone please explain to me the overt evil nature of Taoist magic, or Tribal African magic, Shintoist magic, Native American magic, Australian Aboriginal magic, and these are but a very few examples of the worlds magical traditions? How can anyone be arrogant enough to make a sweeping comment about how magic is intrinsically based in evil?

[Doug McCrae]

Originally posted by zen_hydra

Would someone please explain to me the overt evil nature of Taoist magic, or Tribal African magic, Shintoist magic, Native American magic, Australian Aboriginal magic, and these are but a very few examples of the worlds magical traditions?

Well, of course they don't tell you it's evil. They keep that secret. As is so often the case, evil and cunning go hand-in-hand.

[Blue Angel]

Originally posted by Doug McCrae

Well, of course they don't tell you it's evil. They keep that secret. As is so often the case, evil and cunning go hand-in-hand.

 

Yeah... Like the one pretending to be showing you what's evil. While all the time plotting... PLOTTING. AAAHAHAHA.

 

Isn't that right, Evil Doug.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Why magic is evil

 

You answer a simple question about how you run your Champions games and it starts another (grumble, grumble) metaphysical debate outside the "Non-gaming Discussions" secion. MOM! They're doing it AGAIN!

 

OK, here goes:

 

Magic is man’s attempt to exercise supernatural power without dependence on God, to counterfeit of the workings of the Holy Spirit. It is a rehash of the original sin, man trying to make himself boss of the world instead of recognizing God’s authority.

 

With all due respect to the author of the upcoming "Testament" campaign book, individuals who worked miracles in the Bible weren’t just another d20 magic user class. They performed amazing feats but only when a) it brought honor to God, and it helped somebody else. The power wasn’t theirs to wield as they wished; in fact, they didn’t have any power in and of themselves at all. Instead, God showed up to back them up when they obeyed his instructions. The focus wasn’t on the human tool but on the God who is there when you need him. Moses, for instance, didn’t go around slicing bodies of water in half whenever he felt like it. And when he did, it was to get the Hebrews out of a jam, not to make himself a celebrity.

 

Magic, even so-called white magic, is inherently self-centered and selfish. It’s all about increasing one’s own knowledge and power to improve one’s personal control of the surrounding circumstances and people. Where the motive for miracles is service and compassion, the motive for magic is pride, stroking one’s ego: "Look at me. Look at what I can do! I’ve studied the secret writings. I know something you don’t know." The particular culture involved is beside the point. The effect on the magical practitioner is universal.

 

An example of this difference in perspective can be seen in the New Testament. Simon of Samaria was a witch with powers apparently real and impressive enough to make him a big wheel in town. He converted to Christianity after hearing an evangelist preach. However, when the apostles Peter and John arrived and began praying for the converts to receive the Holy Spirit, Simon fell back on his old way of thinking. He recognized a source of spiritual power, and he was used to buying spell books, magic items, and other tools. So he offered Peter money for the ability to do the same thing. Peter chewed him out, both because Simon’s motives were wrong and because the apostles didn’t have any power to give away. The gift came from God.

 

You also see this perspective in "The Chronicles of Narnia" and "The Lord of the Rings," both written by Christian authors. The heroes of Narnia are occasionally given gifts to use in the fight against evil by Aslan, the legitimate spiritual authority. But they don’t attempt to gain powers of their own. Those who do, such as Jadis the White Witch, are clearly the bad guys. In the same way, Frodo and friends aren’t spell casters. The elves’ "magic" is essentially a form of technology; in fact, the human concept of magic is alien to them. Gandalf performs feats of power not because he studied at some wizards’ academy but because he is one of Middle Earth’s guardian angels. That’s what makes the corruption of Saruman so terrible; he’s a fallen angel. The big bad guys, Sauron and Morgoth before him, were themselves angelic beings who rebelled against the Creator.

[archermoo]

Ah, magic is evil in an RPG because it offends your IRL religious beliefs.

 

And blaming others for responding to your flame isn't particularly reasonable. Had you responded with "I don't allow PCs to use magic because in my game world all magic is evil" would have been one thing. But you didn't limit it to your game world. You simply stated that all magic is evil. That may be true in your game world, and it may be your opinion in the real world. But in game worlds that I have run there are plenty of good guys that use magic.

 

And by extension of your argument against magic, it should hold true for any superpowered being whos power does not come from your god, whether magic is the source or not. So do you consider all supers with non-relegious based powers to be evil as well? They have supernatural powers (powers beyond nature) without dependance on your god.

[Monolith]

Re: Why magic is evil

 

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

Magic is man’s attempt to exercise supernatural power without dependence on God, to counterfeit of the workings of the Holy Spirit. It is a rehash of the original sin, man trying to make himself boss of the world instead of recognizing God’s authority.

I always knew Dr. Strange was evil. His good-guy actions were only an act to lull us into a false sense of security. Soon he will strike though, and then all will bow down to Lord Strange!

[ZootSoot]

Originally posted by zen_hydra

I am dismayed at the obnoxiously Euro-centric views of magic being displayed. Magic as an institution for good has been, and in many places, is still practiced around the world. Magic has always been more about trying to better control / influence ones environment and very rarely about consorting with evil spirits just for the hell-of-it. Would someone please explain to me the overt evil nature of Taoist magic, or Tribal African magic, Shintoist magic, Native American magic, Australian Aboriginal magic, and these are but a very few examples of the worlds magical traditions? How can anyone be arrogant enough to make a sweeping comment about how magic is intrinsically based in evil?

 

The only Person I have seen do that is Kevin Scrivener and, presumably, he does so because it is a part of his deeply held religious beliefs.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Monolith said:

 

I always knew Dr. Strange was evil. His good-guy actions were only an act to lull us into a false sense of security. Soon he will strike though, and then all will bow down to Lord Strange!

 

----

 

Yep, that pencil-thin mustache always gives 'em away!

[Blue Angel]

Moses

 

Strangely, Moses did become a celebrity. Maybe that was his secret intention all along.

 

Even Jesus knew he would be reborn, so, was his submission to crucifiction truly a selfless act.

 

I am not sure any selfless act has ever been committed. Even honesty is born of selfishness... "People will respect me." or at least "People won't hate/kill me for being dishonest".

 

Besides, isn't all advanced technology simply a form of magic. Imagine showing a TV to 8th Century peoples. To them an auto would be truly mysterious...

 

Guess I see magic as just a nonconventional form of technology. It is just more mysterious to us because, being fictional, it's inner workings cannot be discovered.

[Kevin Scrivner]

Ah, magic is evil in an RPG because it offends your IRL religious beliefs.

 

And blaming others for responding to your flame isn't particularly reasonable. Had you responded with "I don't allow PCs to use magic because in my game world all magic is evil" would have been one thing. But you didn't limit it to your game world. You simply stated that all magic is evil. That may be true in your game world, and it may be your opinion in the real world. But in game worlds that I have run there are plenty of good guys that use magic.

 

And by extension of your argument against magic, it should hold true for any superpowered being whos power does not come from your god, whether magic is the source or not. So do you consider all supers with non-relegious based powers to be evil as well? They have supernatural powers (powers beyond nature) without dependance on your god.

 

Gary Denney

>>>-----The Archer----->

 

---

 

No need to get your bowstring tied in knots, archermoo. If you want to allow players to run magical characters in your campaigns, go right ahead. I won't be showing up at your gaming sessions to scold you or to eat an unfair portion of the triple-cheese pizza. I also didn't say that any of the RPGs you enjoy, which may or may not contain pretend magic, are evil. I simply responded to the thread's topic, then explained my reasoning when my initial answer raised a furor.

[Law Dog]

Re: Moses

 

Originally posted by Blue Angel

Besides, isn't all advanced technology simply a form of magic. Imagine showing a TV to 8th Century peoples. To them an auto would be truly mysterious...

 

 

 

 

Simple answer for a simple question - No.

[MarkusDark]

Re: Re: Moses

 

Originally posted by Law Dog

Simple answer for a simple question - No.

 

Too simple actually, because his response has weight and merit. There were many a witch tried and condemned who 'practiced magic' but actually only did rudementary apothecary formulas that are now accepted as simple fact - like penicillin.

 

As a society advances, so does their conception of magic. Magic, by definition is to produce supernatural effects, supernatural being a power that seems to violate or go beyond natural forces. less than 200 years ago, it was beyond natural forces for an airplane to fly, 100 years ago it was beyond natural forces to break the sound barrier. Currently teleportation and the conjuration of flames with nothing more than your voice is beyond natural forces - but in 50 years, who knows?

 

Modern day "Magic", as in the wiccan sense, is a religious arguement that I prefer not to get into. My personal belief was that those who practice magic are people who feel incapable of surviving in the real world through their own power so they try to conjure supernatural power to aid them.

 

However, a dear, wiccan friend of mine stated "If I 'cast a spell' to help me find a job, and I go out and find one - was it actually the spell or the belief that the spell would work that gave me the drive and confidence to get the job? Truthfully - who cares? I got the job."

 

Being a Bay Area Californian, I have adopted the attitude of us 'tree huggers' which is - as long as your ideas don't impact upon mine and you don't force them upon me, then believe in whatever you want.

[MarkusDark]

Oh, and as far as bein' on track with the subject of the thread...

 

In my game world Magic does exist but it is 'kept secret' from the general populace. Before recorded time a contest was held between man and fae and man won. For it, he won the right to live on earth, however, in the contract he could never practice magic. Over the centuries there has been a few violations and finally the creation of a core group of 'wizards' who look out to try and keep the contact solid. If everyday man knew about and learned how to use magic, the contract would be void and mankind's "Lease" upon the earth would be terminated.

 

Playing a Mage in my Champions game requires a great deal of roleplaying and stealth of his powers in order to not be condemned by the committee.

[archermoo]

Originally posted by Kevin Scrivner

Ah, magic is evil in an RPG because it offends your IRL religious beliefs.

 

And blaming others for responding to your flame isn't particularly reasonable. Had you responded with "I don't allow PCs to use magic because in my game world all magic is evil" would have been one thing. But you didn't limit it to your game world. You simply stated that all magic is evil. That may be true in your game world, and it may be your opinion in the real world. But in game worlds that I have run there are plenty of good guys that use magic.

 

And by extension of your argument against magic, it should hold true for any superpowered being whos power does not come from your god, whether magic is the source or not. So do you consider all supers with non-relegious based powers to be evil as well? They have supernatural powers (powers beyond nature) without dependance on your god.

 

Gary Denney

>>>-----The Archer----->

 

---

 

No need to get your bowstring tied in knots, archermoo. If you want to allow players to run magical characters in your campaigns, go right ahead. I won't be showing up at your gaming sessions to scold you or to eat an unfair portion of the triple-cheese pizza. I also didn't say that any of the RPGs you enjoy, which may or may not contain pretend magic, are evil. I simply responded to the thread's topic, then explained my reasoning when my initial answer raised a furor.

 

My bowstring isn't tied in knots. It annoys me when people look down on others for simply responding to their statements. To refresh memories, you said "You answer a simple question about how you run your Champions games and it starts another (grumble, grumble) metaphysical debate outside the "Non-gaming Discussions" secion. MOM! They're doing it AGAIN!". That was in response to people replying to your initial statement of "I don't allow magic or magical characters in my campaigns since the PCs are supposed to be the good guys and magic is by definition evil and demonic. You can't use the powers of darkness to produce good results." The important bit that several people objected to was the "magic is by definition evil and demonic" portion. Had that part been something to the effect of "magic in my campaign is universally evil and demonic" I wouldn't have had a problem with it. However, you didn't. What you effectively said is that what the word magic means is evil, demonic power, and when people objected to your redefining the word you got huffy.

 

Personally IRL, I don't believe in magic any more than I believe in any deity. I feel that belief in both through history has stunted the intellectual growth of mankind for thousands of years an affliction that we are still struggling to get past. Sidetracking the quest for knowledge by influencing people to look to the supernatural for answers rather than the wonder that is the natural world around them. However in a world that both magic and gods exist, such as most Fantasy settings, I've got no problem with either of them.

 

And Kevin, you never answered my question. Would you consider all super powers that do not directly derive their power in a religious fashion to be evil? Or is "magic" the only thing that qualifies as such?