Have you tried to handle combat rolls differently?

[Ndreare]

It works like this.

 

Joe rolls 3d6 gets a 12 ads his OCV of 8 and tells the GM he ruled a 20.

The GM looks and sees the bad guy has a DCV of 9 adds 10 for 19 as 20 is equal to or greater than 19 Joe his.

 

In play it is smoother and easier. While mathematically it works out to the exact same odds.

[mhd]

What's the "10+DCV" if the GM refuses to supply the DCV?

Why would the player need to know that? What's the difference between the usual "I hit DCV 6 or higher" and "I hit 16 or higher"?

[Pegasus40218]

Why would the player need to know that? What's the difference between the usual "I hit DCV 6 or higher" and "I hit 16 or higher"?

The difference is how your arrive there.

 

Sadly, a significant number of players suck at math (though these same players manage to figure out how to min-max their characters to the hilt)...so asking them to perform 2 calculations (OCV +11 - 3d6= DCV) is more confusing to them than simply saying "give me 3d6 + OCV"...You (as the GM) handle the DCV + 10 calculation.  This mechanic is something that players coming from a d20 system will find familiar and easy to work with.  The only thing they have to adjust to is the odds on 3d6 vs d20.

 

Additionally, there have been a couple of people who mentioned the GM not providing the DCV...Certainly, as someone who runs a game, I can understand the urge not to reveal DCV prematurely -- players will look at the odds, and if they're not good, they'll opt to do something other than attack -- even when they have no realistic means of recognizing that they're opponent is that difficult to hit.  However, in my experience trying to be secretive about the target number tends to be a waste of time.  Furthermore, HERO has the advantage of constantly changing DCV (based upon CSL allocation, combat maneuvers, situational modifiers, etc) -- most of which aren't available in other systems where you pretty much have a static armor class...and, by the end of the fight, the players will have figured out their opponents' ACs/DCVs anyway...At least that's my opinion on the matter.

[Scott Baker]

Huh?

Referring to the players knowing the DCV of their opponent(s).

[mhd]

Sadly, a significant number of players suck at math (though these same players manage to figure out how to min-max their characters to the hilt)...so asking them to perform 2 calculations (OCV +11 - 3d6= DCV) is more confusing to them than simply saying "give me 3d6 + OCV"...You (as the GM) handle the DCV + 10 calculation.  This mechanic is something that players coming from a d20 system will find familiar and easy to work with.  The only thing they have to adjust to is the odds on 3d6 vs d20.

I totally get that, and I actually use this mechanic. We even switched the skill system to this, which had me write some JavaScript to fix the Hero Designer output automatically… Don't doubt my commitment to sparkle motion

Yes, players and math really gets weird and makes me glad that I'm not a teacher. Strangely enough in cases like this it's often all about the phrasing. "Take your OCV + 11, roll 3d6 and subtract this" took more mental fortitude than "Take OCV + 11, roll 3d6 and tell me by how much you made it".

 

My question to Greywind really was what's different about the two mechanics regarding the player's awareness of the DCV. I see no big difference there, and most of the time I don't tell my players the "armor class". That's also a main difference between good fighters and bad ones, not just the amount of CSLs, but how obvious it is how they applied them. Taking all of your levels into DCV might look like ducking behind your shield for one goon, but might not be as obvious for fencers or lieutenants of the thieves guild. (I do jot it down in those cases just to prevent allegations of fudging).

[Christopher R Taylor]

I prefer leaving the target's DCV entirely out of the roll, so its OCV+11 - 3d6 roll = DCV hit.  That way the players don't have the target's DCV number, only their attack.

[Scott Baker]

I prefer leaving the target's DCV entirely out of the roll, so its OCV+11 - 3d6 roll = DCV hit.  That way the players don't have the target's DCV number, only their attack.

That's what we do in our current game. Of course the player's quickly zero-in on the actual DCV, which is fine.

[bigdamnhero]

That's what we do in our current game. Of course the player's quickly zero-in on the actual DCV, which is fine.

Same here. Tho we go one step further and pre-add "OCV+11" and write it on the character sheet as "Atk Roll." It works just like a Skill Roll: roll 3d6, subtract it from this number and tell me how much you make/miss it by. Easy to teach to new player, too.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah when I do convention games or have a new player, I do that on their sheet.  Its a pretty quick learning curve, too.  And yeah, players figure out their DCV pretty quickly, but its still not exactly certain because of combat maneuvers.