Side Effect: END Reserve Go Boom!

[ProfessorM@ss]

Hiya!

 

I'd like input on the following scenario:

 

I have a PC who has electrical powers which draw Endurance from a fairly massive END Reserve. He wants to take a side effect -- a major side effect.

 

Basically, it goes like this: if his electrical Multipower is dispelled, he releases all the remaining Endurance in his END Reserve in an explosion. Yes, yes, I know it sounds a little twinky, but in the context of the character, it makes sense.

 

Here's how I was thinking of building it:

 

Side Effect - extreme -1, affects character and environment -1/4, side effect always occurs when a specific act is performed +1/4

 

Now, here's my problem...the guy's END Reserve is gigantic ! If we convert it out as an RKA with no range (-1/2) and explosion (+1/2), it makes sense that it'd do a Damage Class per 5 END remaining in the END Reserve at the time.

 

Let's say our boy has 180 END remaining in his Reserve. That ends up being a whopping 12d6K in damage, over a 36" radius blast!

 

It just seems like -1 is too low a Limitation.

 

Opinions?

 

--->M@ss

[Guest cubist]

Um, I cannot really see allowing this as a SIDE EFFECT! It is too powerful, too useful and for god's sake- the first time this thing went off, you would be writing up all new characters for anyone in range! Perhaps a 5 or 6d6killing explosion, no range with the following would be better?:

6d6killing attack, explosion(+1/2), no range(-1/2), 1 charge(heaven help you if you ever use this more than once!, -2), Trigger(when End pool Adjusted to zero, +1/4), Side effect(10d6 drain on End Pool recovery, standard effect, -30 to end pool recovery, points recover at 5/20 minutes, every time this power used, -2), costs end(personal reserves- this sucker should really take it out of you, -1/2)

Active cost:157points(eek!), Real Cost:26 points. Let him put it into a multipower and he gets it for 3 points and then just use GM fiat to say that he automatically switches to that MP slot when pool adjusted to zero. I wouldn't let it be used as a straight side effect for his End Pool becasue he then gets the equivalent of a HUGE attack for free as a retribution strike sort of deal. He!!, if you lt him do that, he might come up with the idea of going into a crowd of powerful foes and then having one of his team-mates drain him down to zero! I know I would be tempted to do that if I was gettting wailed on anyways and had such an attack at my disposal.

 

Just my 2 cents.

[MisterVimes]

Re: Side Effect: END Reserve Go Boom!

 

Originally posted by ProfessorM@ss

Hiya!

 

I'd like input on the following scenario:

 

I have a PC who has electrical powers which draw Endurance from a fairly massive END Reserve. He wants to take a side effect -- a major side effect.

 

Basically, it goes like this: if his electrical Multipower is dispelled, he releases all the remaining Endurance in his END Reserve in an explosion. Yes, yes, I know it sounds a little twinky, but in the context of the character, it makes sense.

 

Here's how I was thinking of building it:

 

Side Effect - extreme -1, affects character and environment -1/4, side effect always occurs when a specific act is performed +1/4

 

Now, here's my problem...the guy's END Reserve is gigantic ! If we convert it out as an RKA with no range (-1/2) and explosion (+1/2), it makes sense that it'd do a Damage Class per 5 END remaining in the END Reserve at the time.

 

Let's say our boy has 180 END remaining in his Reserve. That ends up being a whopping 12d6K in damage, over a 36" radius blast!

 

It just seems like -1 is too low a Limitation.

 

Opinions?

 

--->M@ss

 

I'm with cubist on this one. Perhaps a set effect instead of a scaled one. And you have to consider what is going to happen to your campaign when this thing goes off. NOW, if you don't let it happen, then he's just getting points for free.

[ProfessorM@ss]

Guys,

 

Thanks for the replies. Let's make something clear: this side effect going off would not be considered a Good Thing. It would be a Bad Thing. This isn't something the character (or his player) would ever use as an attack.

 

There are similar situations in existing comic books. Take Marvel's Jack of Hearts character, for example. He goes boom if he doesn't bleed off enough power -- and as a result, is stuck in an energy-bleeding costume all the time, because going boom would affect him and everybody around him.

 

Believe me, we've put a lot of thought into this one. This is definitely a major Limitation; largely because the character will likely be incinerated if it ever goes off. It's somewhere in the ballpark of an "instant death" Limitation.

 

Anyhow, any further thoughts on it more would be welcome, but I'd prefer to see things along the lines of building it as a Limitation rather than an attack power...because it ain't the latter.

 

--->M@ss

[Guest cubist]

Actually though Mass, it IS an attack, much like the old "retibutive Strike" schtick from AD&D where you could take out all your opponents with you in a blaze of glory. Whether this is something he would ever want to use or not, it certainly isn't a valid disadvantage. If you want to allow it without making him pay for it, fine, just don't give him a price break for being able to level a city around him. I don't see how this could be treated as a disadvantage, its just too potent and even if no one would pruposley use it, the temptation will always be there when the chips are down to blaze out and save his team-mates at the expense of his own life.

[ProfessorM@ss]

Originally posted by cubist

Actually though Mass, it IS an attack, much like the old "retibutive Strike" schtick from AD&D where you could take out all your opponents with you in a blaze of glory. Whether this is something he would ever want to use or not, it certainly isn't a valid disadvantage. If you want to allow it without making him pay for it, fine, just don't give him a price break for being able to level a city around him. I don't see how this could be treated as a disadvantage, its just too potent and even if no one would pruposley use it, the temptation will always be there when the chips are down to blaze out and save his team-mates at the expense of his own life.

 

I do see your point, and it was a real consideration, but we decided to allow it. It just fit the character concept too well...also, he can't choose to go boom. Someone has to dispel/suppress/drain his Multipower. And nobody on his team has that power...so it basically has to be done to him.

 

Anyhow, thanks very much for the feedback!

 

--->M@ss

[MisterVimes]

Originally posted by ProfessorM@ss

I do see your point, and it was a real consideration, but we decided to allow it. It just fit the character concept too well...also, he can't choose to go boom. Someone has to dispel/suppress/drain his Multipower. And nobody on his team has that power...so it basically has to be done to him.

 

Anyhow, thanks very much for the feedback!

 

--->M@ss

 

Okay... I think I see where we're going. You want to side effect be a big explosion, but you frankly, don't want to wipe out *insert home city here* in the process. How about this. A Flash Attack (versus radio group) linked with an energy blast... that will reduce the damage and wreak havoc with the campign city and is less likely to be fatal to the general population.

[TheEmerged]

Basically, he wants Damage (from DC Comics). I ended up charging the PC for the explosion power separately myself, but then I'm a butthead about this sort of thing.

[Bloodshot]

Same Old, Same Old...

 

Nice to see you posting again Professor...missed hearing from you about joining our Steampunk game we've started up. I guess you're too busy with your other games now.

 

For those not in the know, Professor M@ss used to play in a game I ran, and his characters were full of this lovely trick: Side Effects triggered whenever the character's multipower was drained and/or suppressed. I struggled with the idea and allowed it, though after watching his munchkinized character wreak havoc with my game I had only myself to blame for allowing it.

 

The Prof is an unabashed power-gamer, so no appology is required. It's just a shame that I let the character wreck my game.

 

So,to get back to the point of this discussion. I am in agreement with those who think that this setup is designed simply to give him points for nothing. In my game, he created two characters (one for him, one for his buddy) who had the same type of thing. The only problem was that the situation in which the Side Effect would be triggered was so unlikely to happen. When you've got a brick with adaptive defenses *and* a good chunk of Power Defense already in place, your drainer/suppressor opponent better be able to take you out in one shot or else it will never work. If you're a speedster who goes boom when your containment suit is breached, the Side Effect will never be triggered if nobody can actually hit you.

 

Every once in a while I run across a player who forces me to examine characters very closely for their potential impact on my game. The Prof was one of those, and I thank him for it. No, seriously, I do.

[tesuji]

Actually the problem is your math...

 

NORMALLY side effects are based on the AP of the power (or the minimums given in the lim.)

 

180 in an end reserve is only 18 ap, not 180.

 

However, in some cases they tell you to treat it just like end for other effects, in which case, 180 end reserve could be considered as 180 end which costs 90 ap.

 

Going with this logic... 90 ap converts to a 4d6 RKA explosion.

 

Now, here is the bad news. The main character gets no defenses. Everyone else should.

 

That still wont be lethal but it will probably knock him loopy.

 

Things that would set my alarms off would be a high body scroe for this character, over 15, so that on average he could still be up after a 14 body blast; some form of regeneration/healing to enable him to recover quickly and so forth.

 

**********************

 

That said... I would strongly consider requiring this power to be built as a power in itself, as an RKA explosion of whatever you want, and then apply limits to that power.

 

No conscious control would represent he could not normally trigger the bang.

no range would habdle the bang starts at him.

 

Finally, a character disadvantage to cover the triggering of the power involuntarily... phys lim or accidental change seems right.

[EvilGM]

That was a very nicely reasoned out and presented analysis, tesuji.

[JohnTaber]

Hi M@ss,

 

One quick comment...not sure if folks mentioned this...if the end battery is SO huge it will be VERY difficult to dispel. Seems like the limitation might not be THAT severe. See what I mean? If it will never come into play it does not seem too limiting...my $0.02...

[Blue]

Here's a few approaches:

• Built as a Power: A KA or EB, throw in the focus, and the massive limitation that it only goes off when the End Reserve is dispelled (Easily a -2 Limit). You could also build in a 1phase delay, like you know it's gonna blow, and if you were lucky enough to have your action next you could pitch it away to safety (for a nice dramatic effect) or throw it at the bad guys for that matter.
  
• Build it as a susceptibility. It means only you take damage, but it still simulates a nice "backfire" effect. You take damage whenever your END reserve is fried.
  
• Practically unrelated effect that just popped into my head: Make it Damage shield electrical attack that happens when your END reserve is attacked, built like a pesistent power that has no effect until you are attacked. The effect would be that it vents some kind of built up static charge to anyone in the radius around you. It wouldn't be useful every day, but when someone attacked your reserve there would be a nice special effect. And you'd make some decent limitations for really having no control over it.
  

 

Just spitballing. Guess the caffeine kicked in finally.

[Gary]

How big is the multipower, and does it have to be completely dispelled to activate the side effect?

 

If it's a 100+ pt multipower, or the character has significant power defense and the multipower has to be completely drained, suppressed, or dispelled, this is a 0 limitation, and should probably be built as a power.

 

If suppressing or draining the multipower partially, causes the full side effect, this is a major limitation and should be worth -1.

 

If the side effect scales to how much the multipower is drained or suppressed, then it's probably worth -1/2. For a 100 pt multipower, the side effect is normally 6.5D6 killing with no defense. If it gets suppressed 50 pts, the side effect would become 3D6+1 killing with no defense.

 

Somehow though, I think the player is just trying to cheese out a -1 limitation that doesn't limit him.

[SuperPheemy]

Remember that a limitation is worth nothing unless it hinders the character in some way. In the case of a Side Effect, the hinderance is defined as unpleasant consequences to special circumstances. Thus, the consequences are only worth points if the circumstances occurr occasionally during play.

 

Here is the problem with a Side Effect being a massive exploding RKA (even if said Side Effect is well "within character".)

 

Such a character is doomed to die rather quickly by definition. By taking the limitation, the player is ensuring that at some point during play, the END Reserve is going to be Suppressed or Dispelled, thus triggering an RKA that will kill the character and most likely everyone nearby. That is not a limitation.

 

What it happens to be is a cool Deus ex Machina plot device to retire the character in glory. Which I'm all for (considering that heroic sacrifices resulting in really big explosions are a staple of comic book legend.) But it's not worth any points.