Rules Debate: CSL w/RMA

[Ninja-Bear]

6th edition. I tend to make my archers with OIF, but otherwise I would say your assumptions are good

Interesting-I curious oif? What's the special effect? (Not saying its wrong of course.) So he can't be disarmed? (In combat that is).

[JmOz]

A lot of slots tend to be OAF, but the MP itself is a OIF as I feel that even without a weapon a trick ammo character with the ammo could still throw it.  If you want to be full on I tend to build it as OIF and Var LIm (requires -1/2) with a choice of OAF and Range Based on Strength/Inaccurate, or no range (Nor advisable )

[megaplayboy]

Special effects of the arrows might give them different weights, flight times, aerodynamics, etc. and even require that the  arrows be targeted differently according to type. So having to buy a "broader"(more expensive) CSL for the MP is justifiable, imo. 

[Lucius]

 

So if I have a 2 pt Level usable with swords, can I use it with a Martial Art using swords?

 

Conversely, if I have a 2 pt Level with a specific Maneuver, say Martial Disarm, and enough Weapon Elements to use the Maneuver with, do I have to specify a weapon, or can I use that Level any time I use the Maneuver?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Overall Skill Level with Palindromedaries

[NuSoardGraphite]

Let us say that a character has a small RMA Package (Three maneuvers): Called Combat Archery

 

Then said character in the tradition of Hawkeye and the Arrow clan has trick arrows (Say 10 slots)

 

For argument's sake he needs to take a use MA with powers weapon element.

 

Can he then use the 3 point CSL defined as working with his RMA and apply to his trick arrows? (Legal question)

 

If so should a GM loose his GM license for allowing it? (Ethical question)

I am totally okay with this as long as the character pays for the Weapon Element to use their MA with that specific Multipower, and its SFX are in theme with the Martial Art.

[NuSoardGraphite]

So if I have a 2 pt Level usable with swords, can I use it with a Martial Art using swords?

Yes. Any time you use a sword, those 2pt levels would be available.

 

 

Conversely, if I have a 2 pt Level with a specific Maneuver, say Martial Disarm, and enough Weapon Elements to use the Maneuver with, do I have to specify a weapon, or can I use that Level any time I use the Maneuver?

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Overall Skill Level with Palindromedaries

No, you dont have to specify a weapon. Anytime you use that specific maneuver, with or without a weapon, that CSL would be available.

[NuSoardGraphite]

The line comes in when the 3 point CSL is used for more than three maneuvers and/or multi power slots. If I have an Arrow Tricks multi power including 5 slots but no martial arts it would still be illegal. Adding three additional options in the form of maneuvers does not magically make it more valid just because it reinforces by concept.

 

Instead the player can use the CSLs with his maneuvers in conjunction with the default power of an arrow or he can use his maneuvers with his multi power and it's ten slots for 30 total options ( not including the common maneuvers) well above the limits of a 3 point CSL.

 

I would suggest to the player perhaps taking +2 in 5 point CSLs instead of +3 in 3 point CSLs. It would save the headache and better fit with what is legal.

 

Outside of what the rules allow, when I see characters with 10 slot multi powers I automatically assume the players knows the rules, so I usually present these as questions rather than challenges.

Example; "which three maneuvers and or slots do these CSLs apply to?"

"I was thinking all of them"

"Oh, you must have missed it. A 3 point CSL only applies to three actions or less. Just change it to +2 in 5 point CSLs and it will do what you want."

 

That leaves the player without a defensive reaction and with a solution.

 

PS: then slap him because he knew and was hoping you did not.

I disagree.

 

Unless this has been changed in 6th, the wording on 3pt CSLs has been )3 maneuvers or a "tight group". This generally means an entire Martial Art, or in some cases a group of powers that all fit into the same SFX category (fire powers). An entire Martial arts style would fit into this category. As does an entire 1pt category of weapon (all swords, all axes) and all the powers in a Framework. This is mentioned specifically in the description of 3pt CSLs in the 5th edition revised.

 

This 3pt CSLss with Archery multipower applies to every slot within that multipower. The same applies to the maneuvers of a Martial Art, regardless of the number of maneuvers it possesses.

[Ninja-Bear]

Nusoardgraphite the wording has indeed changed. At least in Famtasy Complete. A 3pt doesn't applyto a multipower with 4 or more slots.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Nusoardgraphite the wording has indeed changed. At least in Famtasy Complete. A 3pt doesn't applyto a multipower with 4 or more slots.

I keep finding reasons that make me not want to upgrade.

[bigdamnhero]

5ed (and previous IIRC) basically said a 3-pt CSL only covers three maneuvers/attacks/etc...unless you link them together in some way in which case ignore that bit, it applies to as many as you want. Personally I always found that "loophole" was bigger than the rule: why bother specifying three maneuvers if you're going to give folks a blank check to exceed that limit? (How many characters have you ever seen put CSLs into more than three maneuvers or attacks that weren't linked in a Martial Art or Framework? I can't think of one in 30 years of Hero-ing.) I think the 6ed approach works much better: 3pts for a small group, 5 pts for a large group, 8 pts for all ranged attacks (or all melee attacks or whatever). YMMV of course, but I think it adds granularity and is far less prone to abuse.

 

As to the OP's question: the character has 13* attacks divided into 2 different groups, an RMA and an MP. If he hadn't bought Weapon Element, he would have to buy two separate CSLs: 3-pointers for the RMA and 5-pointers for the MP. That 1-point Weapon Element lets him "link" the two groups so he doesn't have to buy separate CSLs, but it's not a blank check to ignore the fact that it covers 13 attacks. (Especially since the first weapon element is free, so he probably didn't even pay 1 point for it!) The cost of the CSL should probably be based on the size of the combined group. If the RMA and the MP each only had 3 slots...I might let it slide by with a 3pt CSL if I was feeling generous and the player was hurting for points; but at an absolute minimum, the cost of the CSL should be based on the larger of the two linked groups. In this case you're looking at a 5-pointer either way.

 

Similarly, a 2-pt CSL with Swords only applies to basic Strikes with swords. To allow it to apply to every Martial Maneuver the character has, just because he picked Swords as his free weapon element kinda defeats the point of the 3-pt CSL.

 

* Arguably it's 3x10=30, but for simplicity's sake I'm willing to count them as 3+10=13. The result is the same either way.

[Ninja-Bear]

So Bigdamnhero the question is have you really seen a a issue with 3pt. csl with martial arts or power framework?

[bigdamnhero]

So Bigdamnhero the question is have you really seen a a issue with 3pt. csl with martial arts or power framework?

You mean the 5ed 3-pt CSL? [shrug] Depends on what you mean by an issue. I can say I seldom if ever saw it actually limited to 3-maneuvers/powers because if you're going to have more than 3-4 related attacks, you're probably better off building them in a multipower anyway. Going from 1 attack to basically unlimited attacks as long as they're in an MA or Framework was an awfully big jump for such a small cost.

 

Remember also that in 6ed since OCV & DCV are sold separately from DEX, you would've had to increase the cost of CSLs anyway or they would be too cheap compared to buying up CV. So essentially they changed the 5ed 3pt CSL to a 6ed 5pt CSL, and added another level of granularity between them with the 6ed 3-pt CSL which is actually limited to a small group. I wouldn't say the "old" way was broken; just that I like the new way better. YMMV.