Why move from 5er to 6e? (List of improvements?)

[Hugh Neilson]

They could .pdf 1e or 2e, I suppose. That's pretty much the same as B/X D&D.

[Joe Walsh]

True. That would solve the page count issue. But we're still left with the "Ugh, math." issues, the relatively complicated character creation issues, and the combat issues (particularly the speed chart). Maybe I'm misinterpreting, but those are the kinds of things that it seems like people are thinking about when they ask on other boards for suggested superhero RPGs then immediately say, "But not Champions/Hero System."

 

To solve some of that, a product could offer something along the lines of templates/package deals in a limited number of Superhero archetypes. Add some pregens and a nice introductory campaign (like the above-cited one in the BBB, along with the intro adventure from the same volume) and maybe we'd have something. You'd still be left with the speed chart, but maybe that'd be enough to get people to try it.

 

Other than, of course, the "Oh, it's Hero System. I already know I don't like that/heard it's too complicated/etc." baggage from previous editions that wouldn't be resolved without a massive outreach campaign of some sort.

 

And I should make clear that I think what was done with 5e was necessary. I'm not running down the work that Steve did. Adding all those explanations was a huge help to a lot of people and removed the need for a lot of GM rulings and house rules. And 6e made some changes that went a ways toward improving and even modernizing the system (in the sense that Comeliness and Seduction were holdovers from a prior era, at least in my view), while retaining the page-count-boosting explanations from 5e.

 

One other note: GURPS faces similar issues and baggage, and a number of users have stepped forward to do something about it. The folks at SJGames, from the writers and editors on up to CEO Phil Reed, keep things reasonably transparent in regards to the market forces they're facing and what their plans are. On the SJGames board, the CEO posts an annual "Stakeholders Report" that sets out goals for the coming year and reviews how they did at meeting the prior year's goals. Pretty amazing for a privately held company. And then the CEO makes himself available for customer questions and answers them as forthrightly as he can. Out of that came an effort by fans to raise GURPS' visibility by using their blogs to write about the game. Now, every Thursday is GURPS Day, when a dozen or so blogs get updated with new GURPS content. It remains to be seen whether it will have any effect, but it is an interesting experiment and a great way to involve the fans in the success of their favorite game.

 

An advantage for the GURPS fans it that the free GURPS Lite exists. They can point people to it as an easy entry point. Hero can't really do that, I think, because while GURPS is basically a huge list of attributes to be purchased (a list that can be massively cut down for a free version, leaving a good reason to buy the main product while offering a free and simple entry point), I don't think you can cut down Hero to a free version that wouldn't essentially give away the store. The Powers system just won't allow for that.

 

Ah, well.  Maybe we can hit on something else that will work for Hero.

[NuSoardGraphite]

They could easily give away a free version of Hero Lite that has the very basic game system, the characeristics, skills and a couple of dozen Talents with the build mechanics hidden from view. But all the detail, combat options and power construction requires the full book to learn.

[bigdamnhero]

And in moving to 6th edition, we moved up to two hefty volumes - a briefcase full of rules all by itself.

The increased page count of 6ed was due mainly to an increase in verbosity/clarity, more examples, etc, rather than any actual increase in rules complexity that I can see. I agree it was a problem - and unfortunately hit right as the RPG market was going the exact other direction - but it was a marketing/perception problem as much as anything.

 

Aside from that, it seems like a lot of people want simple RPGs these days. Here, I'm talking about people who aren't solely in the market for D&D (a niche within a niche). And a lot of them seem to want free (or at best, cheap) more than anything else. And with the proliferation of RPGs, they can get it -- legally. You can get an enormous number of PDFs for nothing or close to it, from the latest stuff to grognard favorites like B/X D&D. And nearly all of them are low on page count compared to Hero.

...

Hero can't really compete in that space. Not without providing a product they've never provided before, anyway. And maybe not without remaking Hero System entirely.

True. It also seems to me a lot of RPG companies are using their rules primarily as a hook to sell their setting(s), whereas Hero has always been about selling the rules that enable you to build your own setting. Which is exactly what *I* want from an RPG of course, but we seem to be in the minority more than usual these days.

[Ninja-Bear]

OK, so "make up a new rule to cover it" in 5e, "there is a rule" in 6e.

 

By that logic, I can also build whatever I want in D&D or with no rules system at all.

Well Hero in fifth and fourth and I believe in third too has a section on how to develope new powers and by extension new rules. So by RAW you can develope new rules.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm not aware of any game that says you can't develop new rules. However, if I am developing the rules myself, then why did I pay for the game rules?

 

"Just make it up" is quite different from "here is how you build it using the existing rules".

[Hugh Neilson]

They could easily give away a free version of Hero Lite that has the very basic game system, the characeristics, skills and a couple of dozen Talents with the build mechanics hidden from view. But all the detail, combat options and power construction requires the full book to learn.

I've always thought there could be room in the market (probably licensed products) for games "Powered by Hero System". Such a game would use the Hero rules to design the game, but not provide the builds, or allow for their modification. At the extreme, one could design a level-based system where each level provides fixed abilities (perhaps 10 xp worth, or 20 xp worth, or variable per level, or what have you), or perhaps allowing you to choose from a fixed list of abilities for some or all of your level gain bonuses.

 

The Hero resolution system would remain in place, but character creation would be largely masked. A game company might make the builds available online, for interested gamers (or it becomes an add-on to a Kickstarter), but the game would read a lot like a d20 game with a list of abilities characters can select from. One could re-create a game like Mutants and Masterminds (which reads a lot like Hero with set limits added, granularity reduced and a lot of pre-fab powers) pretty easily. A D&D style spell system becomes a Multipower or VPP in the background, but all the players see is a choice of spellcasting type (Arcane or Divine; Spontaneous or Prepared), a list of spell choices (slots selected for the framework) and the mechanism for being granted access to new spells and/or changing current selections.

 

The Fighter doesn't need to know 5 xp went into +1 OCV, or that his damage bonus from weapon Specialization is build from "+x DCs" or "+4 Skill Levels, only to add damage to a single type of weapon". He just picks the effect when he's entitled to do so.

[Ninja-Bear]

I'm not aware of any game that says you can't develop new rules. However, if I am developing the rules myself, then why did I pay for the game rules?

 

"Just make it up" is quite different from "here is how you build it using the existing rules".

Because Hugh no matter the rule system, there always seems to be a situation that comes up that needs a ruling. And there is a BIG difference to modify or create a specific rule for a specific reason than creating all the rules yourself.

[Ninja-Bear]

Btw Hugh I went through that crazy thinking once. I didn't like the one rule in martial arts section so I was going to walk away from Hero. Thwn I realized that a) I was making a bigger deal out if the problem than what it is. I can modify it to suit me and Hero actually embraces that concept!

[Hugh Neilson]

Because Hugh no matter the rule system, there always seems to be a situation that comes up that needs a ruling. And there is a BIG difference to modify or create a specific rule for a specific reason than creating all the rules yourself.

 

I suggest not having to create or modify the rule is the situation envisioned by "I can do this in the game".  I don't believe most gamers would consider "I can add a customized house rule to be able to do this in the game" to be the same thing.

[Joe Walsh]

They could easily give away a free version of Hero Lite that has the very basic game system, the characeristics, skills and a couple of dozen Talents with the build mechanics hidden from view. But all the detail, combat options and power construction requires the full book to learn.

 

I think something like that might well work. I'd add in a Social Combat system from APG II as well.

 

The folks at Hero must have considered a "Lite" product at some point. Or a "Powered by Hero" product like Hugh mentioned. Either seems like it would help. I'd love to know more about the company's thought processes and market strategies some day. Maybe they're just holding out as best they can, hoping the wheel will turn in favor of relatively complex games again some day.

[bigdamnhero]

The folks at Hero must have considered a "Lite" product at some point.

They did; it was called Sidekick in 5ed, or Hero System Basic in 6ed. I don't know how well they sold, but I sure don't get the impression they brought in a lot of new players.

 

Or a "Powered by Hero" product like Hugh mentioned.

Well they do allow, even encourage, plenty of 3rd party campaign/adventure books, but you still have to buy the core rules from Hero. Which probably makes sense: Hero's big selling point has always been the rules themselves, so letting others publish their rules through an OGL-type arrangement would be giving away the store.

 

I'd love to know more about the company's thought processes and market strategies some day. Maybe they're just holding out as best they can, hoping the wheel will turn in favor of relatively complex games again some day.

I have zero insider knowledge other than what Jason, Steve, et. al. have occasionally expressed here. But the sense I get is they realize Hero's main appeal is to people who like to create their own campaigns, so they have decided to focus on their strengths. And there's some logic there: people who like Fate aren't going to be attracted to Hero just because we make it 10% easier, whereas "watering down" the rules risks alienating their existing fans. So it's kindof a Catch 22.

 

That's why I like the idea of an "Introductory" campaign book that was proposed in another thread, where all the world-building and decision-making is already done for you. You don't have to simplify the rules, just help the GM with some of the initial heavy lifting. But that's a different thread.

[Ninja-Bear]

Bigdamnhero from what I seen of the 6th basic, (and this is totally my opinion), Hero and fandom let any perspective player brought in by basic out in the cold. Anytime someone asked a question dealing with basic the common response was well in 6th edition v1&2 is the answer. There was no supppprt products either. I know the idea was pwrhaps have a few adventures written with basic in mind I think would've helped. Leys remwber at this time the economy was tanking so a perspective player could a) Invest in a game book which he never played and no other support products. Price though was reasonable Pay x3 times the amount for two books for a game he never played. Though there was plenty of support. C) Try to find another system that resonable could provide both.

[Ninja-Bear]

I suggest not having to create or modify the rule is the situation envisioned by "I can do this in the game". I don't believe most gamers would consider "I can add a customized house rule to be able to do this in the game" to be the same thing.

After reeeading this 10 times? I think I get your meaning. I still disagree. The poster child for changing Hero system is adding a SAN characteristic for mainly Horror games and some Cyberpunk games. So you are against that?

[Ninja-Bear]

"Just make it up" is quite different from "here is how you build it using the existing rules".

And Hero has guidelines on how to build new powers and such that fits within the exisiting rules. Its not make it up as you go along. Chapter 7 of Fifth edition revised is titled Changing the System.

[Ninja-Bear]

Show me how, in 5e, one builds the Hand Held Hypno-Ray, which uses the wielder`s mental OCV to target the opponent`s physical DCV.

As I said as a limitation. Under fifth rev pg 121 under the heading no range consider this. (To simulate a mental power that requires the character to touch his victim, also apply the limitation requires a skill roll [typically a Dex roll or attack roll].) So just have Normal Range (-1/4) instead of No range. The above stated RSR.

[Hugh Neilson]

After reeeading this 10 times? I think I get your meaning. I still disagree. The poster child for changing Hero system is adding a SAN characteristic for mainly Horror games and some Cyberpunk games. So you are against that?

I'm not "for" or "against" anything other than, perhaps, some clarity in the terminology. If I am selecting a game system, and I want a SAN characteristic, I am far more likely to choose a game that has a SAN characteristic, whether as part of its core rules, or as an optional rule ("this is how you build it using the existing rules", much like we have options for disabling and impairing wounds, bleeding, etc.) than to pick a game lacking that characteristic and making one up to bolt on.

 

Existing Hero gamers are much more likely to be fine with making one up and bolting it on. Hero gamers have already invested in the system, and clearly like many elements or they would move on to another system. They also tend to be tinkerers. However, this is not the entire gaming community - it is a subset of existing Hero gamers.

 

And Hero has guidelines on how to build new powers and such that fits within the exisiting rules. Its not make it up as you go along. Chapter 7 of Fifth edition revised is titled Changing the System.

Working solely from the guidance provided therein, can you show me the way (one way, not one of several options) in which an attack which uses physical OCV to target the opponent's mental DCV is constructed? In 5e, I have to make it up. In 6e, it is clearly spelled out within the rules themselves.

 

In both 5e and 6e, there are no rules for SAN. I could create a new statistic. I could base it off of EGO (much as Call of Cthulhu bases SAN off Power). I could do either in many different ways. I have a bit of guidance in the form of the designer's Meta-Rules, but I do not have a rule on how to do this in Hero. I have a bit of guidance on how to make up something that is not included in Hero.

[Hugh Neilson]

As I said as a limitation. Under fifth rev pg 121 under the heading no range consider this. (To simulate a mental power that requires the character to touch his victim, also apply the limitation requires a skill roll [typically a Dex roll or attack roll].) So just have Normal Range (-1/4) instead of No range. The above stated RSR.

I asked how to use my mOVC to target his DCV. You have presented a structure where I am using my OCV to target his DCV either instead of, or in addition to, using my mOCV to target his mDCV. So my question remains unanswered. And why can't the Hand Held Hypno-Ray have a LoS range? I did not ask how to apply normal range modifiers to it, I asked how to change the OCV and DCV used to determine success of an attack.

 

By applying the metarules (being the author of both 5e and 6e, I am taking it for granted that Steve Long applied the metarules to implement the rule changes, and I am accepting you are using them to build this construct), Steve Long created a very different model than you have devised. Whether I prefer one over the other, in 6th edition, I can design my character independently and run it in any game which follows the RAW. In 5e, I must build the ability quite differently for each game in which I might wish to play the character, as the rules do not provide any common ground for how such an ability is constructed. I and the GM, alone or together, must design such a rule. Or just accept that "you can't do that in Hero - OCV vs DCV or eOCV vs eDCV".

 

A common suggestion is to build the Hand Held Hypno-Ray as an attack using physical CV's, and buy skill levels to get my OCV equal to my eOCV. But then a DEX drain does not have the appropriate result, based on the concept of the power. In 6e, an OCV drain will not change the Hand Held Hypno-Ray's chances of success.

[NuSoardGraphite]

I've always thought there could be room in the market (probably licensed products) for games "Powered by Hero System". Such a game would use the Hero rules to design the game, but not provide the builds, or allow for their modification. At the extreme, one could design a level-based system where each level provides fixed abilities (perhaps 10 xp worth, or 20 xp worth, or variable per level, or what have you), or perhaps allowing you to choose from a fixed list of abilities for some or all of your level gain bonuses.

 

The Hero resolution system would remain in place, but character creation would be largely masked. A game company might make the builds available online, for interested gamers (or it becomes an add-on to a Kickstarter), but the game would read a lot like a d20 game with a list of abilities characters can select from. One could re-create a game like Mutants and Masterminds (which reads a lot like Hero with set limits added, granularity reduced and a lot of pre-fab powers) pretty easily. A D&D style spell system becomes a Multipower or VPP in the background, but all the players see is a choice of spellcasting type (Arcane or Divine; Spontaneous or Prepared), a list of spell choices (slots selected for the framework) and the mechanism for being granted access to new spells and/or changing current selections.

 

The Fighter doesn't need to know 5 xp went into +1 OCV, or that his damage bonus from weapon Specialization is build from "+x DCs" or "+4 Skill Levels, only to add damage to a single type of weapon". He just picks the effect when he's entitled to do so.

Exactly. Something like this would work well to bring in new players. I wouldnt need it, but it would be for introductory purposes. Create new game settings and power them with the basic version ofnHero, slightly tailored for the specific setting and put them on the market for free or super cheap (under 10 dollars). It will bring in loads of new players who like to consume new game experiences but dont want to commit to buying $100 worth of books or learning a huge complex system to play.

[Joe Walsh]

They did; it was called Sidekick in 5ed, or Hero System Basic in 6ed. I don't know how well they sold, but I sure don't get the impression they brought in a lot of new players.

 

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was thinking of something like GURPS Lite, which is not only a simplified subset of the GURPS Basic Set but is also free. Sidekick and Hero System Basic are indeed subsets of their respective full rulesets, but I don't think they're something that Hero can really give away since they contain the whole powers system that is the heart of Hero. There wouldn't be enough reason to go from the free product to the full product. Unless, of course, the point is just to sell such people on genre books and the like. And maybe that would work. I just don't have the data, unfortunately.

 

Well they do allow, even encourage, plenty of 3rd party campaign/adventure books, but you still have to buy the core rules from Hero. Which probably makes sense: Hero's big selling point has always been the rules themselves, so letting others publish their rules through an OGL-type arrangement would be giving away the store.

 

I agree. I don't think an open license would be of benefit, either.

 

 

I have zero insider knowledge other than what Jason, Steve, et. al. have occasionally expressed here. But the sense I get is they realize Hero's main appeal is to people who like to create their own campaigns, so they have decided to focus on their strengths. And there's some logic there: people who like Fate aren't going to be attracted to Hero just because we make it 10% easier, whereas "watering down" the rules risks alienating their existing fans. So it's kindof a Catch 22.

 

That's why I like the idea of an "Introductory" campaign book that was proposed in another thread, where all the world-building and decision-making is already done for you. You don't have to simplify the rules, just help the GM with some of the initial heavy lifting. But that's a different thread.

 

That is a very common problem: do you appeal to your core (but shrinking) audience, or seek out a new one and possibly alienate your current audience. It's a tough call. Certainly in the case of the type of sales that even a very successful non-D&D RPG can generate, it's probably not a bad idea to keep appealing to one's core audience. But there may be other possible avenues for growth. It may be that NuSoardGraphite's idea of something that hides the Powers system could work as a free introductory product. It all depends on whether the Hero System has anything compelling to offer modern gamers aside from the Powers system, really. If that's all Hero really brings to the table, then yeah, there's not much they can do but keep selling it as-is.

[bigdamnhero]

Sorry, I should have been clearer. I was thinking of something like GURPS Lite, which is not only a simplified subset of the GURPS Basic Set but is also free. Sidekick and Hero System Basic are indeed subsets of their respective full rulesets, but I don't think they're something that Hero can really give away since they contain the whole powers system that is the heart of Hero. There wouldn't be enough reason to go from the free product to the full product. Unless, of course, the point is just to sell such people on genre books and the like. And maybe that would work. I just don't have the data, unfortunately.

Ah, I gotcha. Tho I'm not sure you could boil Hero down below the Basic book level and still have it make any sense. But you might be able to go the other direction: sell some pre-built material without showing all the math - more like a ton of Talents than Powers per se - and then point them towards the "Advanced" rulesbooks once they get hooked and want to roll their own.

[Ninja-Bear]

I'm not "for" or "against" anything other than, perhaps, some clarity in the terminology. If I am selecting a game system, and I want a SAN characteristic, I am far more likely to choose a game that has a SAN characteristic, whether as part of its core rules, or as an optional rule ("this is how you build it using the existing rules", much like we have options for disabling and impairing wounds, bleeding, etc.) than to pick a game lacking that characteristic and making one up to bolt on.

 

Existing Hero gamers are much more likely to be fine with making one up and bolting it on. Hero gamers have already invested in the system, and clearly like many elements or they would move on to another system. They also tend to be tinkerers. However, this is not the entire gaming community - it is a subset of existing Hero gamers.

 

 

Working solely from the guidance provided therein, can you show me the way (one way, not one of several options) in which an attack which uses physical OCV to target the opponent's mental DCV is constructed? In 5e, I have to make it up. In 6e, it is clearly spelled out within the rules themselves.

 

In both 5e and 6e, there are no rules for SAN. I could create a new statistic. I could base it off of EGO (much as Call of Cthulhu bases SAN off Power). I could do either in many different ways. I have a bit of guidance in the form of the designer's Meta-Rules, but I do not have a rule on how to do this in Hero. I have a bit of guidance on how to make up something that is not included in Hero.

Yes you do as its specifically used as an example in the back of fifth revised under how the Change the system.

[Ninja-Bear]

I asked how to use my mOVC to target his DCV. You have presented a structure where I am using my OCV to target his DCV either instead of, or in addition to, using my mOCV to target his mDCV. So my question remains unanswered. And why can't the Hand Held Hypno-Ray have a LoS range? I did not ask how to apply normal range modifiers to it, I asked how to change the OCV and DCV used to determine success of an attack.

 

By applying the metarules (being the author of both 5e and 6e, I am taking it for granted that Steve Long applied the metarules to implement the rule changes, and I am accepting you are using them to build this construct), Steve Long created a very different model than you have devised. Whether I prefer one over the other, in 6th edition, I can design my character independently and run it in any game which follows the RAW. In 5e, I must build the ability quite differently for each game in which I might wish to play the character, as the rules do not provide any common ground for how such an ability is constructed. I and the GM, alone or together, must design such a rule. Or just accept that "you can't do that in Hero - OCV vs DCV or eOCV vs eDCV".

 

A common suggestion is to build the Hand Held Hypno-Ray as an attack using physical CV's, and buy skill levels to get my OCV equal to my eOCV. But then a DEX drain does not have the appropriate result, based on the concept of the power. In 6e, an OCV drain will not change the Hand Held Hypno-Ray's chances of success.

Well I messed up on that build as Willie Coyote would say "back to the drawing board".

[Ninja-Bear]

And Hugh speaking of RAW, have you not nocticed that in various genre books, RAW can be supercede to better represent genre? Two if the top of my head are increasing done by hit locations to make them even MORE deadly. And DECREASING knockback dice for martial art games that represent Dragon Ball Z style games.

 

Oh and technically speaking building a character by RAW is helpful but it is still no guarantee that it would be acceptable in another GMs game. You know full well that there are many factors that can make a character unacceptable. For example, Flying Dodge is a legal build but considering the heat when that was put up, I doubt many GMs would allow it.

[Tasha]

The increased page count of 6ed was due mainly to an increase in verbosity/clarity, more examples, etc, rather than any actual increase in rules complexity that I can see. I agree it was a problem - and unfortunately hit right as the RPG market was going the exact other direction - but it was a marketing/perception problem as much as anything.

 

True. It also seems to me a lot of RPG companies are using their rules primarily as a hook to sell their setting(s), whereas Hero has always been about selling the rules that enable you to build your own setting. Which is exactly what *I* want from an RPG of course, but we seem to be in the minority more than usual these days.

 

Heck, the perception was already there. 6e didn't change any minds, but the rules aren't any more complex than the earlier editions. There are more options for what you can do with powers (aka advantages and Limitations), but even that isn't much more than earlier editions. The best thing is the all of the explanations.