Why move from 5er to 6e? (List of improvements?)

[Tasha]

Ah, I gotcha. Tho I'm not sure you could boil Hero down below the Basic book level and still have it make any sense. But you might be able to go the other direction: sell some pre-built material without showing all the math - more like a ton of Talents than Powers per se - and then point them towards the "Advanced" rulesbooks once they get hooked and want to roll their own.

 

 

People really need to let go of the idea that new players care about the toolbox. You DON'T NEED the power construction parts of the rules for newbies. You present a number of pregenerated powers at a specific power level (ie DC 12 give or take 12pts). Include common powers such as blast, Force Fields, Flight, TP, Strength, TK, Expanded Senses etc. Present all of the skills, perhaps only including 8, 10and 12pt skill levels  (6e costs here, 5e would be 5, 8 and 10pt skill levels). Include Multipowers and some limited limitations (ie Focus, OIAID etc). Perhaps present the advantages and Limitations as adders and subtractors (ie Robot Warriors). Keep the math simple. trim the combat maneuvers chart (ie Move through, Dodge, Block, (remove move by), show any damage change as subtraction of DC. Ignore Endurance. Present the SPD chart as an optional rule, assume that all PC's are spd 4. Perhaps include a extra attack power (ie 1 extra attack every other phase is 20 pts and 1 extra attack every phase is 40pts)

 

Mention that Champions Complete (and FH Complete) include more powers and more ability to customize. Include a document with CC that shows how the various powers are built with the full powers rules and how all of the powers can be further customized by using the extra options in CC.

[Joe Walsh]

Ah, I gotcha. Tho I'm not sure you could boil Hero down below the Basic book level and still have it make any sense. But you might be able to go the other direction: sell some pre-built material without showing all the math - more like a ton of Talents than Powers per se - and then point them towards the "Advanced" rulesbooks once they get hooked and want to roll their own.

 

Yup, that'd be the way to go.

 

People really need to let go of the idea that new players care about the toolbox. You DON'T NEED the power construction parts of the rules for newbies. You present a number of pregenerated powers at a specific power level (ie DC 12 give or take 12pts). Include common powers such as blast, Force Fields, Flight, TP, Strength, TK, Expanded Senses etc. Present all of the skills, perhaps only including 8, 10and 12pt skill levels  (6e costs here, 5e would be 5, 8 and 10pt skill levels). Include Multipowers and some limited limitations (ie Focus, OIAID etc). Perhaps present the advantages and Limitations as adders and subtractors (ie Robot Warriors). Keep the math simple. trim the combat maneuvers chart (ie Move through, Dodge, Block, (remove move by), show any damage change as subtraction of DC. Ignore Endurance. Present the SPD chart as an optional rule, assume that all PC's are spd 4. Perhaps include a extra attack power (ie 1 extra attack every other phase is 20 pts and 1 extra attack every phase is 40pts)

 

Mention that Champions Complete (and FH Complete) include more powers and more ability to customize. Include a document with CC that shows how the various powers are built with the full powers rules and how all of the powers can be further customized by using the extra options in CC.

 

Sounds great! I like that you dealt with the speed chart, too. I'll bet this Starter Champions and the starter campaign outlined in the other thread could bring in some new players.

 

This one would take some real work (although we do have a pretty big database of pre-built powers already, so that'll help). Even so, it seems worth doing. I wonder if the Hero folks would have any interest in such a project, or, if not, how difficult it is to get a license to produce things for Hero.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Heck, the perception was already there. 6e didn't change any minds, but the rules aren't any more complex than the earlier editions. There are more options for what you can do with powers (aka advantages and Limitations), but even that isn't much more than earlier editions. The best thing is the all of the explanations.

Yeah but it was presented poorly. Several people advised Hero to put out a small, stripped down, easy to read version without all the extra explanations and rules lawyering then the full book with all the info a GM needs.  The logic was that the first complaint against Hero at the time was "the book is too huge, its too complicated!"  So in response we get... an even bigger book with a second volume almost as big.

 

Thankfully Champions complete is out which handles the problem, but that should have been first.  Now, the perception of Hero being ridiculously complicated and requiring an encyclopedia to play is totally solidified in the minds of gamers, even a lot of Hero players.

 

That's tough to get past.  I would love to write a Champions 101 book with super stripped down basic rules involving plenty of idiot-friendly presentation like a Cracked article using plenty of pictures because apparently reading more than 140 words of text before a silly image is beyond most modern readers.  But I don't have the time or energy to do it.

[Surrealone]

Thankfully Champions complete is out which handles the problem, but that should have been first.  Now, the perception of Hero being ridiculously complicated and requiring an encyclopedia to play is totally solidified in the minds of gamers, even a lot of Hero players.

Unfortunately CC removed things from places people were accustomed to looking for them.  As an example, the default character sheet in the back of the book always used to have the cost of characteristics on it (a great place for a summary), yet despite there being space on the 6e character sheet or that data, it's not there.  People have gone to that sheet as a lookup for years.

 

I actually passed my copy of CC around at a previous game, which has 4 players (other than me) -- three of which have been playing Champions since 1st ed.  Simply skimming and using the index, not a single one could find the information I just mentioned in less than 5 minutes.  In fact, all gave up looking even though I insisted it was there.

 

My point:

Even experienced people have problems with CC ... due to placement of things.  Experienced players who want to dive into it shouldn't need to read it cover to cover to get going ... yet basic changes are hard to quickly find.  That's rather the purpose of this thread  -- to come up with a single, condensed list of deltas that are supposedly improvements ... so that a group can contemplate them as it pertains to the time and cost expense of moving to 6e.

 

​Consider:

At 7 pages of posts (and climbing) in length -- a concise yet comprehensive list of deltas is still not to be found in this thread.  Reading this thread to pick out changes ... is really no better than having to read CC cover-to-cover to divine changes.  A cut-down supplement (or free downloadable PDF?)... similar to the lacking section (as noted, above) detailing lists of things added/changed/removed by 6e, seems horribly absent.

[Joe Walsh]

This should get you started:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/153-champions-complete-converting-characters/

[ghost-angel]

​Consider:

At 7 pages of posts (and climbing) in length -- a concise yet comprehensive list of deltas is still not to be found in this thread.  Reading this thread to pick out changes ... is really no better than having to read CC cover-to-cover to divine changes.  A cut-down supplement (or free downloadable PDF?)... similar to the lacking section (as noted, above) detailing lists of things added/changed/removed by 6e, seems horribly absent.

 

Post #2 - Tasha posted a link to a file listing changes from 5E to 6E.

It may not go into point breakdown or detailed description of everything, but it covers the changes made pretty comprehensively.

[Surrealone]

Post #2 - Tasha posted a link to a file listing changes from 5E to 6E.

It may not go into point breakdown or detailed description of everything, but it covers the changes made pretty comprehensively.

Per post #8, I had already read the 2-pager before I posted this thread.  That doc doesn't cover the half of what's been detailed in this thread.  It's effectively a moonside view of the earth's ground ... when I feel a 5mi (i.e. standard jetliner's downward looking) view of the earth's ground is called for -- and lacking.

[ghost-angel]

I'm not aware of any RPG version shift that has provided minute details of changes in the changes made. Most of them give what you have in that 2-page doc and if you like what you see, buy the new rules to get the detailed specifics of it.

 

Because I can tell already - if I were to go page-by-page and provided a hyper detailed look at What changed, you're going to ask How and Why. Fish or Cut Bait.

[bigdamnhero]

Even experienced people have problems with CC ... due to placement of things.  Experienced players who want to dive into it shouldn't need to read it cover to cover to get going

I'm pretty sure experienced Champions players are not CC's target demographic. Quite the opposite, in fact.

 

At 7 pages of posts (and climbing) in length -- a concise yet comprehensive list of deltas is still not to be found in this thread.  Reading this thread to pick out changes ... is really no better than having to read CC cover-to-cover to divine changes

You want concise-yet-comprehensive on this Forum? How long have you been posting here?

 

Also half this thread has veered off into 6e vs. CC/FHC, which is a completely different subject.

[bigdamnhero]

Oh, another minor 6ed change I like: putting Automaton Powers in the regular list of Powers rather than hiding them in the back under Equipment. Granted, that's mostly an editing change, rather than a rules change per se; but it means that in HD I don't have to switch a character over to a different template just to add Does Not Bleed or whatever.

[Hyper-Man]

Not sure if this has been talked about yet....

 

With the creation of the various independent Combat Value characteristics there was an increase to the cost of Skill Levels (Combat and Non-Combat).  Example - An Overall Level now costs 12 points. Also, the rules on what types of CSL's can be applied to DCV and whether it affects Ranged, HTH or ALL combat have become more defined/restricted (Limited DCV purchased as a Power is now an option though). 

 

I don't mind the change because it pretty much affects ALL characters equally. However, it does contribute to the overall cost creep when converting characters from previous editions to 6e.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

Because I can tell already - if I were to go page-by-page and provided a hyper detailed look at What changed, you're going to ask How and Why. Fish or Cut Bait.

You can't tell, you only ASSume ... and wrongly, at that.  See, I already own 6e Champions Complete.  However, if we're to move to 6e I need to convince the entire group to go through the time and expense of doing so.  That's an upsell, so it shouldn't require already owning and then reading a new ruleset cover-to-cover to glean sufficient detail to make that upsell happen.  (And the aforementioned two pages flat-out didn't cover it.)

 

Put succintly -- I already fished ... and now need sufficiently detailed marketing material to convince other experience players to do so.  That material just doesn't exist; and players shouldn't need to invent it to help sell more of someone else's product.

[Tasha]

You can't tell, you only ASSume ... and wrongly, at that.  See, I already own 6e Champions Complete.  However, if we're to move to 6e I need to convince the entire group to go through the time and expense of doing so.  That's an upsell, so it shouldn't require already owning and then reading a new ruleset cover-to-cover to glean sufficient detail to make that upsell happen.  (And the aforementioned two pages flat-out didn't cover it.)

 

Put succintly -- I already fished ... and now need sufficiently detailed marketing material to convince other experience players to do so.  That material just doesn't exist; and players shouldn't need to invent it to help sell more of someone else's product.

 

the information you requested is in the first 3 pages of this thread. I covered most of it and some others filled in the blanks that I left.

[ghost-angel]

Put succintly -- I already fished ... and now need sufficiently detailed marketing material to convince other experience players to do so.  That material just doesn't exist; and players shouldn't need to invent it to help sell more of someone else's product.

 

Can you point me to such a precise, detailed, document for any other RPG out there? Because I don't think what you're asking for exists for anything.

 

If you can't articulate the changes your group might like yourself, I don't know how a document could do it for you. Every game that I've been sold on is because someone I know told me about it and all stuff they thought I might like.

[Manic Typist]

The problem is that you're approaching this backwards. An Excel spreadsheet with a list of changes (good or bad) is not a persuasive argument- for anything.

 

Arguments, supported with relevant evidence (data, rules changes that speak to the issue being argued) are persuasive. Arguments must be tailored to the audience, however.

 

So if you want to persuade your players to consider switching, AND you want the help of this board to identify what evidence (changes) will be useful in this cause, tell us the KINDS of arguments that you think the players would be interested in.

 

• Player 1 ( Mr. Indifferent)- I'm perfectly content with my current play experience; in fact I would find learning more rules a bit of a burden given that so far I'm having a great time. However I'll go along with what the group wants.

No rules changes will persuade this player, so save your breath.

 

• Player 2 (Ms. Verisimilitude)- I'm a bit frustrated by how different character concepts have to have the same stats, such as DEX, to achieve different visions and they end up with similar capabilities. I want to be able to build a highly skilled fighter who isn't amazingly agile or fast (High OCV without high DEX or SPD) or a really amazing, agile person who isn't automatically a precision fighter (high DEX without high OCV)

This person would be interested in the elimination of figured characteristics.

 

• Player 3 (The Wizard)- I haven't been able to build a VPP that reflects what I'm looking for due to real point and active point ratios.

This person would be interested in changes to how VPPs work, etc.

 

So, what sorts of things have the players said that they like about HERO (and thus we could tell you how 6E does those things BETTER [or worse]), or what have they complained about (and we could tell you how that issue was resolved, or not)?

 

 

Hope this helps.

[Ninja-Bear]

Hugh to answer your question I lpoled at the guidelines and the existing adavatags and determined that allowing someone to use their OCV to hit someones ECV would be a +

1 1/2 ADV same as BOECV it will be less if ECV is close to OCV.

[Chris Goodwin]

If you've already got a campaign going, and you're wondering whether it's worth it to switch all of your players over to 6th edition, then based on the costs of switching (in both money and effort to relearn) the answer is probably no.  There's nothing that says you can't import bits from 6e that you like into 5e, though, especially Limitations (which are just Limited Power).  

 

Character creation in 6e is less effort, overall.  In gameplay at the table there's not much difference.  

 

If you were starting a new campaign with new players, I'd recommend 6e.  

 

Surrealone, have you tried asking the other players and/or the GM what they want to do?

 

Here's a thing that people might not have considered: start playing 6e but only translate characters if players want to.  You can play 5e characters in 6e with almost no trouble whatsoever, other than the hexes-to-meters switch, and there's nothing at all that says you can't play with two meter hexes in 6e.  Just have all new characters be created under 6e rules.  

[Surrealone]

Surrealone, have you tried asking the other players and/or the GM what they want to do?

 

Chris,

Of course -- and doing so was the reason I was looking for a concise yet complete abridged list of 6e changes from 5e (including their details).  My group will want to make fact-based decisions ... something that's tough to do from a 2-page change list that is devoid of specific facts regarding the changes.

 

Since instantiation of this thread I have used the 2-page doc plus information from this thread to compile the needed concise yet complete abridged list of 6e changes from 5e.  Using MS Word with 0.5" margins and mostly 10pt font, my doc is 14 pages ... and contains a list of changes (drawn mostly from the 2-page doc), the benefits of less obvious changes (mostly drawn from this thread), and the specifics of the changes (be it a mechanical change, a modifer's value change, new options being added to modifiers, etc.)  as determined by comparing each item in 6e CC and 5er.  It would be shorter, but I actually took the time to include a lot of tabular material (recreated in Word, no screenshots) so that the doc could also help us with the transition to 6e should the group elect to do it.

 

Thus, I now have exactly what I need -- I simply had to compile it, myself -- and I will be presenting it to the group at our next session (probably over the mid-session meal).  I'd make my doc available here, but I included so many specifics from 6e (in order to cover the details missing in the 2-page change list) that while my use of the material is fair under Copyright law, I suspect that distribution of the material here would be an infringement.

 

I would like to thank the following people for providing very constructive input in this thread, as it provided non-rules insight into the uses/benefits of some changes ... while simultaneously guiding my eyes and effort in a constructive way (unlike some others, here -- you know who you are):

• ​Tasha
• BoloOfEarth
• ​Lucius
• ​bigdamnhero

Since it was multiple posts by these folks that I found most helpful (no disrespect to anyone else; these were simply the most useful posts to me), I am quoting what I found useful, here, so that it's aggregated in one single post that can be marked solved -- while giving proper credit for the input I valued most:

 

VPP's are fixed, ie you don't have to take fracking huge VPP if all you need is a bunch of little powers for your utility belt.

 

Elemental Controls are replaced by the Unified Power limitation. So, no more arguing with players who want to put powers that don't cost end into their EC. They just buy all of their powers with Unified Power and be done with it. Like EC, powers are drained as though they are a single power.

 

No Figured Characteristics, The stats are still there (ie PD, ED, SPD, Rec etc), but you don't need to buy primary stats high just to save points. Also, melee characters no longer get a huge point break because they invested heavily in Primary stats. Also OCV, DCV, OMCV (Offensive Mental Combat Value) DMCV (Defensive Mental Combat Value) are now stats that can be purchased and aren't tied to either Dex or Ego. What this means is that it's far easier to make characters that fall outside of the game norm. ie If I want to build the old martial artist that has bad knees. I can buy his OCV, Spd way high, but leave his DCV and Dex Low. All stats are cheaper (All primaries ex Dex are 1pt/pip, secondaries are like wise less expensive). Characters in 6e are more expensive because of this change.

 

Com is now Distinctive Features talent (which gives +1d6 presence depending on how the character's features are distinctive, ie beauty would allow those pre dice to be used vs people who are attracted to the PC with DF good looking). As others point out below, this can also be used for someone who is hideous or anything else that is distinctive.

 

Here's a doc that lists the changes to Character gen 5e to 6e

http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/1-5th-edition-to-6th-edition-character-creation-summary/

 

 

To add to the excellent points Tasha and HM have made:

 

Replacing Force Wall with Barrier makes it actually possible to create decent walls (energy or real) without taking out a new mortgage on the Bat Cave.

 

Decoupling OCV and DCV, as well as SPD, from DEX should avoid artificially driving up DEX values.  (We had a DEX Arms Race in one campaign.)

 

Replacing COM with Striking Appearance gives actual in-game effects to hideous or beautiful characters.  So the Monster (who might have had low COM with no real in-game effect in 5E) could have levels of Striking Appearance that increase his presence attack.  (Tasha covered this on the beauty side, but I wanted to point out the opposite as well).

 

One note:  on a straight 5E -> 6E conversion, the characteristics do come out costing higher as Tasha pointed out.  However, a true conversion might include lowering some primary characteristics that were originally bought up simply to take advantage of figured / secondary characteristics (e.g. a non-martial artist, non-speedster character with 23 DEX mainly because that gives him 8 OCV, and 8 DCV).  So the 6E character could be 15 DEX and still have high CVs (each at whichever level fits that character, not necessarily in lockstep with each other).

 

 

Regeneration is back in 6th edition.

 

 

I think the tldr for 6ed goes something like: "Incremental improvements that allow for more flexibility in character creation, and isn't that what attracted most of us to Hero in the first place?"

 

Most of my favorite changes have already been mentioned, but here are a few comments:

• Decoupling figured characteristics: when I go back and look at old 5ed characters, it’s striking to me how homogeneous they all seem in comparison to my 6ed characters. And if you prefer figured stats, it’s trivially easy to write a house rule that, say, you must buy END equal to at least 2xCON. But going the reverse route generally gets more fiddly, requiring the purchase of Limited Characteristics and so forth.
• VPPs: I love decoupling the Pool from the Control cost; now you can have a lot of RP worth of low-AP powers, or vice-versa.
• Changing COM to Striking Appearance: I confess I didn’t see the point of this at first, but I can definitely say the latter gets used a lot more than COM ever did.
• The switch from hexes to meters was a bit of an adjustment for us old-timers, but in addition to allowing for a more variable scale, it's also *much* easier for newbies to grasp.
• Powers: A lot of the things they cleaned up were things I never noticed how clunky they were until I saw the fix: pulling Barriers out of Entangle for example. I also think a lot of them are better balanced now: making Drain ranged by default for example.  
• Allowing one energy blaster to block another energy blaster’s ranged attack by default is so genre (for many genres anyway) that it’s hard in hindsight to see how/why we ever did it differently.

Given all the stuff they intentionally left out of the Basic book, I can't recommend it to anyone. Spend the extra $10 and get one of the Completes.

 

They're "complete" in the sense that you have all the rules you need to play under one reasonably-sized cover. If you're disappointed that they couldn't fit all 600-pages of 5ER in under 250 pages while still covering the material previously contained in the stand-alone Champions or Fantasy Hero genre books, well...I can't help you with that.

[Joe Walsh]

I'm glad you were able to put together what you need.

 

I imagine something like this work comparing 1e-3e with 4e and 5e should be OK to publish.

[Surrealone]

Oh if only a doc like that had existed for 6e (or if I'd found it sooner?) -- it would have saved me a lot of the expansion time/effort regarding the 2-page summary.  That said, I've got a LOT more detail in what I created -- enough that it could probably be combined with a 5er set of rules to allow one to play a 'frankengame' that matches 6e.  That wasn't the intent of creating it, and I will not use it that way (but I may use it as a quick reference, myself); it is, however, a danger if it's published ... which is why I won't go there.

[Joe Walsh]

Oh if only a doc like that had existed for 6e (or if I'd found it sooner?) -- it would have saved me a lot of the expansion time/effort regarding the 2-page summary.  That said, I've got a LOT more detail in what I created -- enough that it could probably be combined with a 5er set of rules to allow one to play a 'frankengame' that matches 6e.  That wasn't the intent of creating it, and I will not use it that way (but I may use it as a quick reference, myself); it is, however, a danger if it's published ... which is why I won't go there.

 

I understand. Still, if you ever have the time and you're feeling generous, creating a 5e-6e doc that's similar to the one Chris Goodwin did for previous editions and making it available would help the next person out. Just a thought, since you've already done the work exhaustively detailing the differences.

[Ninja-Bear]

Surrealone are you going to post your group decision? I very curious as to which way your group goes.

[Surrealone]

Since you've expressed an interest, I will follow up.  I suspect it'll be a while since we only game (in this particular game) once per month ... and everyone has fairly hefty schedules.

 

i.e. I realistically suspect no decision to be made until mid-summer -- but who knows, the group could surprise me.

[massey]

To comment on Hugh's earlier question:  in 5th, to have a mind control gun that uses my ECV vs your DCV, I buy Mind Control,  Then I slap a -1/4 "goes against DCV" limitation on it.  Easy as pie.  It's a limitation because DCVs are almost universally higher than ECVs, and people can dodge to increase their DCV.  It's -1/4 because it's not as limiting as "no range".

[Chris Goodwin]

Oh if only a doc like that had existed for 6e (or if I'd found it sooner?) -- it would have saved me a lot of the expansion time/effort regarding the 2-page summary.  That said, I've got a LOT more detail in what I created -- enough that it could probably be combined with a 5er set of rules to allow one to play a 'frankengame' that matches 6e.  That wasn't the intent of creating it, and I will not use it that way (but I may use it as a quick reference, myself); it is, however, a danger if it's published ... which is why I won't go there.

I understand. Still, if you ever have the time and you're feeling generous, creating a 5e-6e doc that's similar to the one Chris Goodwin did for previous editions and making it available would help the next person out. Just a thought, since you've already done the work exhaustively detailing the differences.

 

Ah yeah, sorry about that. I forgot about it, otherwise I would have pointed you at it straightaway.