Problem Cantrips

[eepjr24]

This is not a huge issue, but I figured I would see if anyone in the community saw solutions I was missing. I have just finished converting all the Cantrips from D&D 5e over to Hero 6e. While the great majority were not a problem, there are a few that translate poorly at the Cantrip level. My first solution will be to simply exclude them, but I was curious if anyone else could come up with a translation of the below concepts without exceeding 15 AP (the limit for cantrips in the campaign).
 
For more information or to see a few examples, check out KS's page under my provider linked in this topic.
http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/92977-dd-5e-concept-conversions-6e-hero/

Note that due to being on vacation the great majority are not uploaded there yet, but they will be in the next couple weeks.

 

The problem children are:

Druidcraft: Whispering to the spirits of nature, you create one of the following effects within range:

• You create a tiny, harmless sensory effect that predicts what the weather will be at your location for the next 24 hours. The effect might manifest as a golden orb for clear skies, a cloud for rain, falling snowflakes for snow, and so on. This effect persists for 1 round.
• You instantly make a flower blossom, a seed pod open, or a leaf bud bloom.
• You create an instantaneous, harmless sensory effect, such as falling leaves, a puff of wind, the sound of a small animal, or the faint odor of skunk. The effect must fit in a 5-foot cube.
• You instantly light or snuff out a candle, a torch, or a small campfire.

Prestidigitation: This spell is a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice. You create one of the following magical effects within range:

• You create an instantaneous. harmless sensory effect such as a shower of sparks, a puff of wind, faint musical notes or an odd odor.
• You instantaneously light or snuff out a candle, a torch or a small campfire.
• You instantaneously clean or soil an object no larger than 1 cubic foot.
• You chill, warm or flavor up to 1 cubic foot of nonliving material for 1 hour.
• You make a color. a small mark. or a symbol appear on an object or a surface for I hour.
• You create a nonmagical trinket or an iIlusory image that can fit in your hand and that lasts until the end of your next turn.

lf you cast this spell multiple times. You can have up to three of its non-instantaneous effects active at a time and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.

 

Thaumaturgy: You manifest a minor wonder, a sign of supernatural power, within range. You create one of the following magical effects within range:

 

• Your voice booms up to three times as loud as normal for 1 minute.
• You cause flames to flicker, brighten, dim, or change color for 1 minute.
• You cause harmless tremors in the ground for 1 minute.
• You create an instantaneous sound that originates from a point of your choice within range, such as a rumble of thunder, the cry of a raven, or ominous whispers.
• You instantaneously cause an unlocked door or window to fly open or slam shut.
• You alter the appearance of your eyes for 1 minute.

If you cast this spell multi pIe times, you can have up to three of its 1 minute effects active at a time, and you can dismiss such an effect as an action.

 

As you can see there is a common theme of multiple possible effects. A VPP or Multipower might be the way to go here, but most of these spells will be in VPP or Multipower frameworks themselves. I am the GM for these, so I have some leeway but I am looking for input on what others have done or would do for this. 

 

Thanks, Herophiles!

 

- Ernie

[L. Marcus]

If you have gone the route of using a Power Skill for your magic, I'd say that most of the Cantrips can be mimicked by Power Tricks; that is to say, minor effeckts that show off the character's ability to cast spells that do not really warrant their own write-up -- all it takes is a successful Wizardry (or Druidry, or Sorcery, what have you) Skill Roll.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Druidcraft: Whispering to the spirits of nature, you create one of the following effects within range:

 

 

• These look like an illusion for most of them, although you could use a cosmetic transform with a narrow variable result (these sort of effects) of a die or two.  The effects are tiny and minor, and making a plant bloom is not anything beyond how it looks, really.

Prestidigitation: This spell is a minor magical trick that novice spellcasters use for practice. You create one of the following magical effects within range:

These all look like minor change environment or images.  Probably a Change Environment with a few effects the character can pick between would be fine.

 

Thaumaturgy: You manifest a minor wonder, a sign of supernatural power, within range. You create one of the following magical effects within range:

Again, images to sight and sound.  The door or window thing is a bit more powerful and would probably require a minor telekinesis of a few strength.

 

I love very low end cantrip type effects.  Its this stuff that makes someone seem magical, more than the big blasts and such.  Superheros can throw around lighting but it feels magical to make a plant bloom or shape fire.

[eepjr24]

If you have gone the route of using a Power Skill for your magic, I'd say that most of the Cantrips can be mimicked by Power Tricks; that is to say, minor effeckts that show off the character's ability to cast spells that do not really warrant their own write-up -- all it takes is a successful Wizardry (or Druidry, or Sorcery, what have you) Skill Roll.

Hmmm. I may allow that as an option as well. Define a set of powers that can be used for it (cosmetic transform, images, a few STR TK, maybe a dispel die or two and some limited change environment). That is an option, depending on the type of magic they go for. It would also allow later power tricks for more powerful variations on existing spells for off the cuff changes. 

 

Thanks.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

 

I love very low end cantrip type effects.  Its this stuff that makes someone seem magical, more than the big blasts and such.  Superheros can throw around lighting but it feels magical to make a plant bloom or shape fire.

 

I too love them. I don't have trouble building any of them, really, just fitting them into the 15 AP level was my challenge. When you need to have images (already at 10 points for 1 sense group) plus some TK or transform or a CE... you get past 15 really quick.

 

- Ernie

[bigbywolfe]

One option is to treat cantrips as prebuilt Talants. Use the Powers' final cost after Modifiers as their base cost like homemade Talents, that reduces the AP issue.

 

EDIT: Stupid phone keeps autocorrecting to "can't rips"

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

One option is to treat cantrips as prebuilt Talants. Use the Powers' final cost after Modifiers as their base cost like homemade Talents, that reduces the AP issue.

 

EDIT: Stupid phone keeps autocorrecting to "can't rips"

A problem with having cantrips being Talents is that some cantrips (like Acid Splash or Sacred Flame), are damaging and, therefore, should be built as powers. 

[bigbywolfe]

A problem with having cantrips being Talents is that some cantrips (like Acid Splash or Sacred Flame), are damaging and, therefore, should be built as powers.

All Talents are already built as Powers, that's how their cost was figured. If you don't allow them to have additional Advantages or be cheapened by extra Limitations I'm not sure why the fact that some cause damage would be unbalancing.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't think the concern is unbalancing, but the basic concept and nature of talents is usually not damage (but not always - deadly blow, for example).  But there's nothing that says you can't do it.

 

When I finish my "player's handbook," it will have Talent-style versions of the spells with all the sausage guts hidden away in the "DM guide" (whatever they will be called).

 

I think the power roll approach really is the best one, and its damn well gonna show up in the books as well - as Cantrips.  Each school will have some super basic effects that you can do just with 1 END and a magic skill roll.  Stuff mages throw off without effort or concentration.  Like light a fire, snuff a candle, heat their tea, etc.

[eepjr24]

Yes, the more I think about it the more I like the power roll idea. Not to completely replace the concept of Cantrips, because there are many that I don't think should be near effortless but for a fire mage lighting and snuffing candles, heating some tea or food, etc should be second nature. Combat effects are in my mind by nature more difficult because of the pressure, active opponents, etc. And larger effects require more power and effort and therefor warrant a specific write up as well.

 

And Chris if you are looking for proofreaders or play testers let me know, depending on timing I might be able to help.

 

As an aside, does anyone have guidelines they use for power skill rolls to define skill level or the like? Something like:

 

Skill of 10 or less - Apprentice

Skill of 11-12 - Journeyman

Skill of 13-14 - Expert (or Mage / Illusionist / other class title)

Skill of 15-16 - Adept

Skill of 17-18 - Master

Skill of 19-20 - Grandmaster

Skill of 21+ - Arch Wizard

 

I could add Neophyte for 8- I suppose, if that comes up. 

 

- E

 

- E

[L. Marcus]

For my part, I want to respect the guidelines on 6E1 p56 -- that's why I've set up my magic system the way I have (my campaign thread is around here on the Fantasy forum). So an Apprentice has a roll of 8- or 10- (and no actual Spells, only Power Trick Cantrips), a Journeyman has a basic EGO Roll (say, 12- or 13- for PCs), a Master has at least 14-, and a Grand Master would have 16- or 17-.

[Ninja-Bear]

I thought also that with prestidigation youb could move something weighing one pound or less?

[eepjr24]

I thought also that with prestidigation youb could move something weighing one pound or less?

Probably in some previous version, but not in the version of 5e PHB that I have.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

5th edition kind of gutted the cantrips from what I understand

[Ninja-Bear]

Probably in some previous version, but not in the version of 5e PHB that I have.

 

- E

Thats fine. The info I have was from an online source so I don't know how accurate it is.

[eepjr24]

5th edition kind of gutted the cantrips from what I understand

I would say that they balanced them, since they can be cast at any time with no penalty, similar to a use of STR or DEX for a fighter or rogue. But then again, I am an old 1st Edition D&D player (pre-AD&D), so YMMV. =P

 

- E