Toolkitting Knockback

[Surrealone]

So, a bit of background: I've been working on coding a damage calculator of sorts for HERO, that is meant to be a way to give a clear view the rough effectiveness of characters during building: either as GM so I know the villains won't be too dangerous or too much of pushovers, as well as for players, so that they know roughly where their heroes stand in terms of effectiveness and they don't end up with characters that can't really do anything meaningful vs enemies. It would basically take relevant stats and advantages and spit out numbers like chance to hit, chance to deal any damage, chance to stun, number of attacks to KO on average and such.

 

While doing this, I thought about adding in knockback. I generally haven't paid much attention to knockback, and it's mostly been forgotten during combat in my games, unless someone specifically intends to do something with it (knock an enemy into another, or the like) or has a power built with "does knockback" or "double knockback". But when I added it, I noticed that knockback seems highly inflated in superhero levels of damage. A 12 DC attack will deal roughly 12 Body, and Knockback will negate, on average 7 of that, yielding 10m of knockback. That doesn't seem terribly unreasonable, when you think about comics and other supers media (especially cartoons), but on roughly every attack that lands, that seems excessive. There's statistically only a less than 4% chance to do no knockback at all, and a roughly equivalent chance to only do knockdown, meaning there's a 92% chance that any given attack that hits will do knockback.

Consider that KB, as designed, helps offset higher speeds in superheroic games -- because it causes characters to burn time getting up, moving back into position (and burning END to do so), and/or taking recoveries due to the added damage they may have sustained.  Since this is how it manifests, perhaps your toolkit should account for it in that way.

 

 

Now, I don't want to eliminate knockback entirely. As much as I often forget or gloss over it in my games, I think it'd be nice to have as a mechanic, and would make combat fairly dynamic. However, I feel like introducing it to a greater extent, unchanged, wouldn't be preferable; Breakfall, knockback resistance and the like would become too much of "must-haves"  and it would limit the effectiveness of hand-to-hand attacks to too much of an extent. So I'm wondering what an elegant solution for a happy medium would be. I still want knockback to happen occasionally (maybe half the time would be reasonable) and I want more powerful attacks to be more effective at knockback. Additionally, I want "Does Knockback" and "Double Knockback" to be reasonably effective (after all, if someone pays the points to have that be part of the power's schtick, then it should do something, possibly even having "Does Knockback" be more effective than regular attacks at causing knockback), but I have yet to find a way that I like.

I think your feeling is just that, a feeling.  Breakfall and KB resistance should only be must-haves if character vision/conception entails it.  HTH attacks are only limited in effectiveness if the person using them doesn't plan properly for the knockback his/her character tends to generate (by say, attacking against a surface ... or having enough movement to be able to half-move up and attack again after s/he has sent an opponent flying with knockback).  Experienced players will plan and/or play around this game effect.  You may wish to consider introducing KB, per RAW, just to broaden the scope and dynamics of play to what most players experience, especially considering that you admit to ignoring it.  After all, it does have the impacts I noted, above.

 

Think about it -- your SPD 6 character gets knocked back 9" while in HTH combat.  If s/he wants to re-engage the same opponent s/he has to get up (half phase) and then half-move (5") ... and then half-move (4") again ... assuming the opponent didn't move.  This SPD 6 character basically has 4.5 phases left to work with.  Suddenly playing with full KB mechanics makes a lot of sense, considering it was probably a SPD4 brick that throttled him/her to begin with.

 

​Thus, I don't think your solution should be to tweak how much or how often KB is done.  Rather, I think your toolkit should spit out KB-related numbers that indicate the potential for added damage (if KB was done against a surface), and/or the amount of time potentially blown recovering from KB.  Keep in mind, however, that these things depend on defenses, movement, and SPDs in your game ... so really, they always need to be considered relative to some opponent if they're to have any degree of accuracy.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Ouch.  What did you do to the cost of the double knockback advantage to equalize?  

 

In practice, everything works out fine without needing any doubling or changes.

One of the things the 2m hex did was distort any concept of distance on a hex mat.  Everything was so theoretical that you kind of lost a feel for how long the distances were.  In converting characters I'm continually amazed at the gargantuan distances they were build to move.  30m running is incredible.  If you can run 30 yards in 3 seconds, that's immense.  Pace it out some time, we're talking speeds you'd associate with The Flash.  But that was tossed around pretty regularly on character builds.

 

An average 12 damage class champions attack would average around 10m of knockback.  That's about 32 feet.  Check that out some time in the real world, to see how far people were bouncing around.  And that's on average, like pinballs.  Turn that into 5m and its not so excessive, but someone with double knockback gets a lot more.  More than 10m because of the way it works, the average with a double knockback attack is now 17m.

[DasBroot]

Ouch.  What did you do to the cost of the double knockback advantage to equalize?  

 

In practice, everything works out fine without needing any doubling or changes.

One of the things the 2m hex did was distort any concept of distance on a hex mat.  Everything was so theoretical that you kind of lost a feel for how long the distances were.  In converting characters I'm continually amazed at the gargantuan distances they were build to move.  30m running is incredible.  If you can run 30 yards in 3 seconds, that's immense.  Pace it out some time, we're talking speeds you'd associate with The Flash.  But that was tossed around pretty regularly on character builds.

 

An average 12 damage class champions attack would average around 10m of knockback.  That's about 32 feet.  Check that out some time in the real world, to see how far people were bouncing around.  And that's on average, like pinballs.  Turn that into 5m and its not so excessive, but someone with double knockback gets a lot more.  More than 10m because of the way it works, the average with a double knockback attack is now 17m.

 

1 - 30 yards in 3 seconds would barely qualify you for the Olympics 100 meter dash based on speed alone.  Now the fact that a hero can do it basically forever (and casually) is where it gets a little nuts.

 

2 - To be fair what kinds of forces are involved in the 'average' 12 damage class champions attack?  If you keep things even and equal that '60' active points when applied to strength can lift 100 tons (a blue whale on the strength chart examples).  Thus a 12d6 Blast should also be able to move 100 tons of dead weight.

 

I would think that any force capable of physically moving a beached blue whale impacting against something human weight would, indeed, move them a hell of a distance (you know, if their body was up to maintaining its form and thus remain somewhat aerodynamic instead of exploding into a fine red mist, which is what would really happen....)

[Surrealone]

Scale has always been a problem with Hero System ... and you're not going to fix it by adjusting KB mechanics, movement, etc.  A STR 3 toddler can, per the STRENGTH TABLE, lift 25kg (examples include: a full suitcase, a TV set, and a bicycle), do 1/2d6 damage, and throw what it can lift (see previous) a whopping 4m (12 feet!).  Ever seen a toddler throw a TV set 12 feet on level ground?  Neither have I...  Now imagine if it REALLY wants to throw it (i.e. pushing)!

 

That's per 6E scale.  It was actually worse in earlier versions.  In 5ER, the same STR 3 toddler could lift 37kg (examples include: a refrigerator, plate armor, etc.), do 1/2d6 damage, and throw what it could lift 1" from a standing position or 2" if it was a running throw.  (Ever seen a toddler throw a refrigerator 12 feet on level ground with a running start?! ​  Again, imagine if the kid pushes!)

 

Welcome to a system designed around superheroes; it's got scale problems in every facet of its design ... but at least it's consistent about having superheroic scale (i.e. at least it is absurdly scaled for every aspect, instead of just unrealistic for a few).  We can either live with it, fix it across the board (rather than ad-hoc and piecemeal), or choose a different system.  Any other approach (e.g. ad-hoc tampering with one aspect without mucking with all of them) just skews things in favour of some character builds and not others -- which seems less fair than RAW, which as noted above, is at least consistent about being skewed toward absurdity when compared to normals.

[Christopher R Taylor]

you know, if their body was up to maintaining its form and thus remain somewhat aerodynamic instead of exploding into a fine red mist, which is what would really happen

 

Well right, you have to wink at some of the physical effects.  The thing with strength is that while it can lift gigantic amounts, it doesn't apply that kind of force.  And an equivalent blast of 12d6 wouldn't move 100 tons, either.  Someone suggested in a different thread to peel lifting off of strength and make it an adder, but what I suggested in the 6th edition discussion forums when Steve was writing it was to split damage off entirely.  Make strength merely exertion: lift and STR roll.  Then you buy HTA if you can punch really hard, to simulate that, because something that can lift a lot doesn't necessarily mean they can punch that hard.

 

Scale has always been a problem with Hero System

You're right, and we all have to deal with that in our own way.  I've found my system works for me and my players.  The key to make it work is to not half the damage, so people take 1d6/m distant of knockback instead of 2m; the damage remains pretty similar, but people aren't bouncing around like popcorn in a bag.

 

Any other approach (e.g. ad-hoc tampering with one aspect without mucking with all of them) just skews things in favour of some character builds and not others -- which seems less fair than RAW, which as noted above, is at least consistent about being skewed toward absurdity when compared to normals.

A good example of what you're talking about is a game I was in where the GM decided if you took shrinking, you moved slower and had less strength.  It made sense, but it crippled the shrinking character tremendously.  All house rules have to keep this kind of thing in mind and playtest to see how they work out.

[Surrealone]

Christopher,

Presumably in your world, then, Superman being able to lift a plane doesn't translate to being able to keep one from crashing since, you know, applying such force on just the wing, or the fuselage, etc. (basically in the limitated, tiny area where someone as small as Superman [compared to a 747] could apply that strength) ... would simply destroy that portion of the plane?

 

Since you try to correct for scale problems in RAW, I guess I'm asking how far you take your corrections?

[Christopher R Taylor]

Presumably in your world, then, Superman being able to lift a plane doesn't translate to being able to keep one from crashing since, you know, applying such force on just the wing, or the fuselage, etc. (basically in the limitated, tiny area where someone as small as Superman [compared to a 747] could apply that strength) ... would simply destroy that portion of the plane?

I make the case that being really strong doesn't necessarily translate into punching really hard and you interpret that as superman being unable to lift a plane?

 

Okay....

[Surrealone]

I make the case that being really strong doesn't necessarily translate into punching really hard and you interpret that as superman being unable to lift a plane?

 

Okay....

I just scaled up the strength and a potential correction for it to better match real-world scenarios ... as I'm trying to get a feel for where you draw the line on correcting for things you don't like in RAW.  Kinda off topic compared to KB, but the question is related in an oblique sort of way:  Where does one draw the line when tampering?

[JohnnyAppleseed098]

This is really now just a heated debate between Chris and Surrealone 

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of the things I appreciate about the Hero system is that people can adjust things and build things as they prefer.  The rules, in fact, specifically say for GMs to add, subtract or adjust things to fit their campaign concepts.  Almost everyone who plays this game has house rules - in fact, every game, even more simple designs like Savage Worlds.  That's a standard concept for all gaming, as I've known it since I started playing in the early 1980s.

 

This is really now just a heated debate between Chris and Surrealone 

I tried to agree with him and find common ground  I don't understand why he's so upset at a suggested concept.

[DasBroot]

Well right, you have to wink at some of the physical effects.  The thing with strength is that while it can lift gigantic amounts, it doesn't apply that kind of force.  And an equivalent blast of 12d6 wouldn't move 100 tons, either. 

 

A 12d6 blast attack against a 100 ton object on the ground, as per the vehicle and base weight table in champions complete, will move it 12 body - 7 rolled = 5 x 2 m - 10 meters KB resistance for its mass.  So on average 0 meters (Huh. Wonder if that was intentional?).  With a roll of 6 instead of 7 as the average it will be 2 meters.  On a higher than average body roll or lower than average KB roll it's certainly not out of the question for said 12d6 blast to, indeed, push that kind of weight - and by extension exert that kind of force.

 

It's a little crazy.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I don't actually mind the inconsistencies, because they match comic books.  Cyclops' blast is incredibly powerful but he doesn't very often use it to move hugely heavy things around or knock people hundreds of feet.  Havok's is even more powerful, same deal.  But the Hulk threw Fin Fang Foom like another state away.

[Surrealone]

This is really now just a heated debate between Chris and Surrealone 

For whatever reason folks seem to read my verbiage as passionate when it's merely blunt, dry, and to the point.  There's no heat on this end.

 

 

One of the things I appreciate about the Hero system is that people can adjust things and build things as they prefer.  The rules, in fact, specifically say for GMs to add, subtract or adjust things to fit their campaign concepts.  Almost everyone who plays this game has house rules - in fact, every game, even more simple designs like Savage Worlds.  That's a standard concept for all gaming, as I've known it since I started playing in the early 1980s.

 

I tried to agree with him and find common ground  I don't understand why he's so upset at a suggested concept.

I absolutely concur with adding/subtracting things to fit campaign concept -- and I think house rules make sense for that so long as they don't favor one character type over another.  However, I suppose I tend to question ad-hoc changes to the rules to overcome inherent design flaws within the rules -- as that's a far cry different from adjusting to fit a specific campaign concept, is it not?  I also tend to question changes to one side of a system's equation without making additional changes to rebalance the entire equation, as that tends to yield an unbalanced result that leans to one side of the equation.

 

Back on topic:

I'm still quite interested to know where one draws the lines when trying to 'fix' inherent scale (including physics -- since, you know, a toddler can't throw a full suitcase or TV 12feet) problems.  This seems like an important question when adjusting KB, especially since KB effects are one of the ways slow, heavy-hitting brick-like characters tend to make fast, flurry types blow actions.  If you cut KB in half by way of GM fiat (a la a 'house rule'), don't you skew the game more toward the fast, flurry types since the slow, hard-hitters now have much more difficulty depending on making the fast, gnat-like insects go sailing across the street, have to stand up, then return to fight HTH some more?

 

I could be mistaken, but I got the sense that the OP was trying to avoid exactly that kind of skew.

[Tasha]

For whatever reason folks seem to read my verbiage as passionate when it's merely blunt, dry, and to the point.  There's no heat on this end.

 

 

I absolutely concur with adding/subtracting things to fit campaign concept -- and I think house rules make sense for that so long as they don't favor one character type over another.  However, I suppose I tend to question ad-hoc changes to the rules to overcome inherent design flaws within the rules -- as that's a far cry different from adjusting to fit a specific campaign concept, is it not?  I also tend to question changes to one side of a system's equation without making additional changes to rebalance the entire equation, as that tends to yield an unbalanced result that leans to one side of the equation.

 

Back on topic:

I'm still quite interested to know where one draws the lines when trying to 'fix' inherent scale (including physics -- since, you know, a toddler can't throw a full suitcase or TV 12feet) problems.  This seems like an important question when adjusting KB, especially since KB effects are one of the ways slow, heavy-hitting brick-like characters tend to make fast, flurry types blow actions.  If you cut KB in half by way of GM fiat (a la a 'house rule'), don't you skew the game more toward the fast, flurry types since the slow, hard-hitters now have much more difficulty depending on making the fast, gnat-like insects go sailing across the street, have to stand up, then return to fight HTH some more?

 

I could be mistaken, but I got the sense that the OP was trying to avoid exactly that kind of skew.

 

BTW a Toddler does NOT have a 5 strength. An Adolescent Human does.

 

Also "A character’s lift ing capacity, as indicated in the Strength Table, represents the maximum amount of weight he can just manage to lift off the ground, stagger with for a step or two, then drop. He can easily carry or lift the weight which he can pick up with his Casual STR" (5er pg 34, 6e1 pg 42,CCpg 14 bottom of str chart)

 

So scale isn't an issue. Just a bad interpretation of the rules, probably based on an earlier edition.

[Surrealone]

BTW a Toddler does NOT have a 5 strength. An Adolescent Human does.

 

Who said 5 STR?  I seem to recall posting 3 STR...

 

Your clarification on lift weight was noted and appreciated.

[Christopher R Taylor]

In the comics, its also worth noting that knockback is reserved for extraordinary efforts or strength: huge hits.  Most of the time people don't really tend to go that far when hit.  So if your desire is to more closely simulate comics, its going to be the exception when someone is hit a mile, not the general rule.  If a campaign starts with the ground rules of people not being hit as far... there's no advantage or loss.  That's just how the game works.

[DasBroot]

A toddler probably has a 1 strength, really.  Maybe a 2. Barely able to pick up a gun, sword, or shot put according to the strength chart.  in fact the characteristic benchmark page (pg 20 champions complete) says as much - less than 1/4 the base value (so less than 2.5) for 'infant' which is close enough.

 

An average adult human has an 8, which lets them lift and stagger a few steps with 165 pounds.  They can throw a pre-teen 2 meters.  Not sure how your super strong str 3 toddler is throwing 25 kg 4 meters - 25 kg is a 0 meter throw for them since you subtract the strength needed to lift the object from the characters strength and figure out the throw from what's left.

 

(Mind you after 10 strength does get silly in a hurry, with a 'maximum human strength' 20 character able to throw a 330 pound refrigerator something like 24 feet). 

[Christopher R Taylor]

(Mind you after 10 strength does get silly in a hurry, with a 'maximum human strength' 20 character able to throw a 330 pound refrigerator something like 24 feet).

but only if Indiana Jones is inside.

[Surrealone]

A toddler probably has a 1 strength, really.  Maybe a 2. Barely able to pick up a gun, sword, or shot put according to the strength chart.  in fact the characteristic benchmark page (pg 20 champions complete) says as much - less than 1/4 the base value (so less than 2.5) for 'infant' which is close enough.

'Infant' (from Champions Complete pg 20) and 'toddler' do not mean the same thing, so I'm not sure why you conflated the two terms.  Not to be semantic about it, but the term 'infant' is usually (but not always) applied to a child in its first 12 months of life while 'toddler' is typically (but not always) applied to a child from one to three years of age.  I went with STR 3 for a toddler assuming 2.5-3 years of age.

 

If you want to hang your hat on the 'Average People' table on Champions Complete pg 207, you'll also note that 1 STR for a 'small child' is out of whack compared with every other physical stat ... and that based on what a 1 STR can lift many kids falling in the 'small child' range would not be able to stand up due to an inability to lift their own weight.  I think of a 'small child' as any child under 5-6 years of age for whom abstract thinking has not yet 'turned on' within the brain.  A 6 year old with 1 STR?  I don't think so.  4-5 STR, most likely.

 

You're welcome to hang your hat on this obviously strange table column if you like.  As further evidence that it wasn't well-considered, note the sellback of OMCV and ODCV to 0 for the 'small child' in that same table.  Minimum characteristics as argued ad nauseum on these forums and per RAW are supposedly 1 -- so this column breaks the very RAW it attempts to exemplify/underscore/assist with.  I truly get the sense someone was building out a 'weak' example hurriedly with a set of points, as evidenced by the DEX 8 for a 'small child'.  (Sure, kids can be dexterous, but I'd argue this was done to provide a 13- DEX roll where a 12- using a 4-5 DEX would have sufficed -- with the freed points likely going into STR so the 'small child' could actually carry its own weight and then some extra.)

 

Bringing us back on topic:

Still no response as to how, if KB is halved by GM fiat, a GM avoids removing an element that brick-types often rely upon to cause higher-speed opponents to blow actions ... thus helping equalize speeds?  I suppose I'll take that to mean that doing so (i.e. halving KB) simply unbalances the game toward SPD being preeminent, as there seems to be no replacement mechanic offered for brick types to use in lieu of KB to cause higher speed opponents to blow phases/actions without attacking or defending -- and no penalty levied on them to compensate for the impact to brick-types for KB being halved by GM fiat.

 

I can't say I'd recommend it in games with diverse SPDs and character archetypes, but hey, if someone wants to encourage SPD preeminence, I suppose halving KB by GM fiat is one (of several) ways to do it.

 

Tholomyes:

I'm interested in what you ultimately decide to do -- because I think toolkitting KB is tough (due to the need to an opponent's movement, SPD, etc. to be considered) ... but worthwhile, since KB can be a very significant ally for brick-types.

[DasBroot]

'Infant' (from Champions Complete pg 20) and 'toddler' do not mean the same thing, so I'm not sure why you conflated the two terms.  Not to be semantic about it, but the term 'infant' is usually (but not always) applied to a child in its first 12 months of life while 'toddler' is typically (but not always) applied to a child from one to three years of age.  I went with STR 3 for a toddler assuming 2.5-3 years of age.

 

If you want to hang your hat on the 'Average People' table on Champions Complete pg 207, you'll also note that 1 STR for a 'small child' is out of whack compared with every other physical stat ... and that based on what a 1 STR can lift many kids falling in the 'small child' range would not be able to stand up due to an inability to lift their own weight.  I think of a 'small child' as any child under 5-6 years of age for whom abstract thinking has not yet 'turned on' within the brain.  A 6 year old with 1 STR?  I don't think so.  4-5 STR, most likely.

 

I lumped toddler closer to infant (weak) than to child (challenged) based on what, realistically, a toddler could hope to accomplish.  Child to me (which is a str of 2.5 to 5) would be someone between 5 and 14 years old. Even an average 13 year old would struggle to lift 50 KG so I'd have no problem giving them a 5 - and then it increases rapidly to near 8 between 14 and 18. 

 

It's all subjective, though.  My 36 year old sister probably has a 5 strength if you go by lifting capacity rules for this sort of thing (lift 110 pounds for a few seconds? Only if she absolutely had to in order to get something off her kids. I used to go to the gym with her and her deadlift was 80 pounds after a few months of me training her.  My wife could do 100.) I guess my muddled point is that if a 3 str toddler lifting 25 kg sounds like crap (and it is) then perhaps reassessing what category a toddler would fall into is prudent.

 

Still can't throw that 25 KG 4 meters, though, even with the rules as borked as they are.

[Surrealone]

Aye -- even if we see the terms differently in terms of the numerical values we assign, scale is still very much an issue!

[Christougher]

I've long pondered the issues with Knockback, and have yet to find satisfactory answers.  I will however offer one of my thoughts from trying.  Change the KB Resist mechanic to -1d6 per Body or 2 Body, where each Body rolled on KB Resist subtracted 1 from the KB rolled.  Actual KB Resist might subtract or just increase the number of dice.  

[Surrealone]

I've long pondered the issues with Knockback, and have yet to find satisfactory answers.  I will however offer one of my thoughts from trying.  Change the KB Resist mechanic to -1d6 per Body or 2 Body, where each Body rolled on KB Resist subtracted 1 from the KB rolled.  Actual KB Resist might subtract or just increase the number of dice.  

Are you suggesting replacement of the -2m KB for every 2x normal human mass ... by making it random (using die results) based on BODY, instead?   If so, how would you handle the +2m KB for every 1/2 normal mass a character has ... since, you know, the character would need to be at negative BODY (and likely dying) for you to do go positive (i.e. +1d6) ... and I'm not sure that makes much sense.

 

Or did I misunderstand?

[Hyper-Man]

A relatively simple House Rule to play test for feasibility would be to change Bracing for Knockback from a 1/2 Phase to a 0 Phase Maneuver.  Keep the 1/2 DCV Penalty and state that the decision to Brace has to be made before the To Hit Roll.  Then it becomes a relatively persistent effect vs. the expected impact direction.

 

HM

[Surrealone]

A relatively simple House Rule to play test for feasibility would be to change Bracing for Knockback from a 1/2 Phase to a 0 Phase Maneuver.  Keep the 1/2 DCV Penalty and state that the decision to Brace has to be made before the To Hit Roll.  Then it becomes a relatively persistent effect vs. the expected impact direction.

 

HM

I realize this would affect all characters evenly, but once again, if KB effects help equalize the delta between hard-hitting brick types and faster characters (by causing characters to brace for, get up from, and move back into position after KB), how will you keep such a change from altering that equalization?  I like the idea, but it basically conserves an action for the person bracing .. which is one less blown action between a high speed character and a low-speed brick-type that often leverages KB. 

 

To offset this and balance it out, I would propose we amend your House Role such that Bracing for KB is not only a 0 Phase Maneuver that results in half DCV ... but that it also entails an inability to abort in the next new segment if the character doesn't have a Phase or a Half Phase to use.

 

i.e. A character could abort to a 0-Phase Brace for KB maneuver ... but would not be able to abort again while braced.  This would add real risk/choice -- do I blow an action and exist at half DCV while sacrificing future aborts until my next phase arrives ... to brace to soak the KB?  Or do I eat the KB and then soak damage and/or blow actions after the fact. 

 

Half DCV with no further aborts basically compensates the brick-type for the fact that a 0-Phase Brace could completely negate the KB effects he's built to rely upon.... which seems fairly equitable because now the brick (or his compatriot) has an opening where the braced party (who probably takes no KB and likely blows no actions) is easier to hit.

 

Thoughts?

 

P.S. Obviously SPD12 characters don't care much about this.  That said, they have so many pts invested in SPD most of the time that they tend to be unable to soak hits -- i.e. their defense tends to be NOT getting hit.  Thus, I don't think this breaks down as you move up the SPD chart, since moving up the SPD chart tends to entail characters who can't brace for KB or soak the damage.