Creating a fantasy $ system

[keithcurtis]

Thank you for ending this silliness, mudpyr8.

 

Keith Curtis

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Alcamtar

I have decided that in my fantasy campaign, letters of credit do not exist (or are very rare), for the reason that they are easily forged magically. Gold and silver are two metals that cannot be permanently created or altered by magic and thus provide a stable economic base. Copper does not have this property, so "copper pieces" are really just smaller denominations of silver coinage.

 

My motive is that I don't want PCs to easily carry around a king's ransom in their purses like in D&D (should they somehow manage to acquire such wealth), paying cash for castles and armies and stuff.

 

I wonder if, historically, kings paid for castles in coin?

 

 

I'd also like the freedom to have golden thrones and dragon hoards and stuff without worrying about having them easily looted. (We'll see if it works...) If they do loot a huge treasure, it'll be bulky and obvious enough to attract attention. I also like the "wagon trains loaded with gold" idea.

 

Sounds interesting, but I try to balance reality with fantasy. One of the most interesting contrasts I find effective in fantasy, is Tolkiens heros walking to Mordor, or riding natural mounts like horses - rather then riding dragons or hippogriffs. Of course he had the giant eagles, but there were not mounts per se, rather rescuers.

 

This contrast between fantasy and reality in a story I find very interesting. I certainly don't like techno-magic, bleah.

 

Credit does exist, but is based on personal trust and honor, rather than a blind letter.

 

Letters of credit were based on the credibility of the instituition authoring the letter. Of course a great safety valve was that most people couldn't read, let alone write - so you basically had only nobles, their clerks and scholars who could even attempt to forge a letter.

 

Ahhhhh, civil discussion without name-calling and negative inferences, never goes out of style.

[Mutant for Hire]

The inclusion of magic does alter things quite a bit. Think of magic as technology, and look at what technology did to turn the middles ages into the renaissance and the industrial period. A high magic setting on some level is going to be renaissance to industrial level in terms of sophistication. Agrarian magic will raise crop yields high to support a higher non-agrarian population which in turn helps feed magical/technological development.

 

In a low magic setting, it's not too difficult to use the standard "dark ages" model. Most villages of peasants will in addition to the blacksmith, miller, etc. have a warlock/witch who is familiar in the petty sorts of magics that most peasants need. Likely as not they will do double duty as the healer and more importantly veteranarian. They can deal with forms of crop blight as well. While barter might be common, given their need for exotic supplies now and then, they're likely to encourage coin as well, or stuff that they can have traded for coin.

 

Feudal lords will have a more powerful magician. A lot of the magician's magic will be in terms of things like communication, scrying, and spells to determine lies and uncover the truth. Remember that feudal lords were most concerned with knowing what was going on, giving orders to the management of their estates, and handling justice. They probably also know stronger forms of healing magic, but for humans only, and really for the lord and higher servants, or anyone who can afford to make a donation to the lord for the services of the lord's magician. The magicians themselves were on a flat income in return for unlimited use of their services.

 

Likely as not there is a local warlock/witch in addition to the magicain who handles the healing of the servants and the lord's beasts, and they are probably the best warlock or witch in the area. Maintaining the lord's steeds is not a trivial concern at all. For a duke or a king, there may be a full magician handling such duties.

 

The local magician probably does most of the weather magic as well, being stronger and better trained than anyone else. Concern for the weather is not below a baron, or even a duke or a king. Weather played an important part in warfare and even a king could worry about what a drought would do to the royal coffers.

 

Towns would almost certainly have a guild for magicians, with all that implies. Apprentice, journeyman and master magicians, with rates and what services were provided. They would deal exclusively in coin. They would also take a dim view to any magicians wandering in to town to practice their trade. In fact, that would probably be illegal. Not that the magicains themselves would be illegal, just doing business.

[assault]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

Towns would almost certainly have a guild for magicians, with all that implies.

 

Secular magicians? Eww...

 

Burn the demon worshippers at the stake, I say. The only supernatural entities that should be dealt with are the gods...

 

All nonsense aside, I rarely separate "magic user" and "priest" in my games. In particular, it is the patron deity/deities responsibility to protect her/his/their worshippers.

 

I also often don't have a priestly caste separate from the nobility. Religion is a social function, and religious leaders are therefore social leaders, and vice versa. There might be the occasional witch, shaman or virgin priestess floating about, but the bulk of worship is carried out by part-timers.

 

In this system, magic has little active role. It's assumed to be in operation, as part of normal life. You make the proper sacrifices at the right time of year, and the gods favour you, or not...

 

Alan

[farik]

I really like the suggestion that gold and silver can't be created with magic that would establish a nice basis for the currency. Although I'd also be tempted to have iron replace copper since iron commonly effects certain mystical creatures. I'll have to bring this up at our next campaign planning session.

[Markdoc]

>>>I really like the suggestion that gold and silver can't be created with magic that would establish a nice basis for the currency<<<

 

What about gems?

 

I use (among other things) precious metal-based currency, despite the fact that magicians can make gold or silver if they choose. It still works for me (though you can get regional inflation) because:

a) IMG magicians are not all that common. That means their effect is generally limited to around the area where they live and they can only take up so much of the local area's production

IMG most magicans have better things to do than transform dirt into gold all day long

 

It does mean that IMG, once a mage attains a decent degree of proficiency, then simple cash is really not an issue for them. After all, you don't see Gandalf mugging passers-by and looting their bodies so he can afford pipeweed, do you?

 

The second thing is, even if you DID restrict their ability to make gold and silver, it makes little difference, unless you also restrict access to powers and limit the creation of magic items. A mage who can create magic items could get all the cash he/she needs for a little bauble that grants the wearer an unlimited lifespan and immunity to disease. Or invisible protection against poison. Or....

 

cheers, Mark

[farik]

I think gem creation would be more like an art form. I mean the average person can't melt down a gem and shape it and if a mage doesn't have the necessary lapidary skill his gems would be rather flawed from a monetary value. This of course assumes gems are simply baubles and not a utilitarian resource like traditional metals.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by farik

I really like the suggestion that gold and silver can't be created with magic that would establish a nice basis for the currency.

 

Oh Tolkein, how great is your mastery - you didn't try to advocate the super-ridiculous in your books.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Oh Tolkein, how great is your mastery - you didn't try to advocate the super-ridiculous in your books.

 

Agreed. Tolkein's 'magic' is far more subtle and hard to model in an RPG. Most magic-using PCs want to be human howitzers. "Fireball coming on line!"

 

The magic system I use is based on changing the basic nature of objects, making them more or less of what they are, stronger, weaker, faster, slower, etc. No flashy stuff.

 

It occurs to me that it might be an interesting story to introduce a character who really can change base metal into gold. Some folks would want to control him, some might want to kill him, some might just want to extract the secret or to bury the secret forever. It sounds like a good springboard for a whole story arc, with lots of political power plays, assassination attempts, etc.

 

Keith "Ideas flying at me!" Curtis

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by keithcurtis

Agreed. Tolkein's 'magic' is far more subtle and hard to model in an RPG. Most magic-using PCs want to be human howitzers. "Fireball coming on line!"

 

The magic system I use is based on changing the basic nature of objects, making them more or less of what they are, stronger, weaker, faster, slower, etc. No flashy stuff.

 

I think the key ingredient to any quality power design is.. subtlety. If you can be subtle about a power, and give it a good rationale for existing, then most people will appreciate it. If you make a power available, like take-out at McDonalds, no one will appreciate it.

 

Of course, the historical power for changing lead into gold is called Alchemy. This would definately be more acceptable, in terms of quality, for changing lead into gold. Of course you can always go with the razzle dazzle presto poof! effect. But somehow I dont think that's quality.

 

And btw, Gandalf did have a flashy burning hands effect, when he killed two goblins in the Misty Mountains cave the Hobbit. And of course, in the Lord of the Rings he cast hold person on Aragorn and Legolas, and zapped the Ringwraith with a light blast. Tolkein's mastery was in playing these things down: he didn't go for flashy special effects.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by mudpyr8

I hope the slaughterj got what he was looking for.

 

Heh, the general and theoretical discussions have been interesting, but I think a bit "off" in the end, not because of the impact of magic, but rather because of the emphasis on the history of medieval economics, which is not the focus of the majority of typical fantasy campaigns (and as noted, perhaps a later age, like the renaissance, might be more applicable). I did mention in one post that the price system I was working on was for City of Lankhmar (set in the world of Newhon, from the books about Fafhrd and the Gray Mouser, by Fritz Leiber), but any general fantasy economy system-setting-up info is useful.

[keithcurtis]

Originally posted by Galadorn

And btw, Gandalf did have a flashy burning hands effect, when he killed two goblins in the Misty Mountains cave the Hobbit. And of course, in the Lord of the Rings he cast hold person on Aragorn and Legolas, and zapped the Ringwraith with a light blast. Tolkein's mastery was in playing these things down: he didn't go for flashy special effects.

 

This is true in general. Gandalf also cast some pretty fancy fire effects in Eregion to protect the company from the wolves. He pretty much set the whole hillside ablaze.

 

Many of Gandalf's fire-related abilities abilities may have have come from Narya, the ring of fire, of which he was the bearer. The rest of his stuff was far more subtle (locking spells and such), and in many cases sheer force of personality ("You cannot pass!").

 

BTW, the lead into gold if done in my current game would be more an act of will with no visible effect, flash of light or anything. The problem it would have however would be a nasty tendency to revert to base metal if removed from the adept for too great a distance or too great a length of time. Subtle in its own way.

 

Keith "Would still like to cast a fireball, just once" Curtis

[Bartman]

Originally posted by Galadorn

And btw, Gandalf did have a flashy burning hands effect, when he killed two goblins in the Misty Mountains cave the Hobbit. And of course, in the Lord of the Rings he cast hold person on Aragorn and Legolas, and zapped the Ringwraith with a light blast.

Of course Gandalf is a minor god/angelic being of the same classification as Sauron and the Balrog. So he's allowed to be a bit more flashy in his uses of magic than the average person. Not that the average person has any real access to magic anyway.

[Mutant for Hire]

Tolkein was more interested in mythology than economic or political reality. When you get down to it, how the heck did the elves in Rivendale or Lothlorien feed themselves? Forests lock up most of their biomass in trees, which aren't famed for being edible. Ditto for Moria in its heyday. All of them must sustain themselves heavily in terms of trade, which means that our hobbits missed all the traffic going in and out of those places. Either that or there's a whole lot of farmland near those places that Tolkein forgot to put it Ironically enough, Mordor has one of the better developed systems, as it is indicated that there are vast tracts of farmland to the south and east of Mordor tended to by slaves.

 

As for magic, Tolkein didn't have magic in his world. He had something called "sub-creation" which is rather complicated, abstract and more than a little philosophical. The closest one gets is the sorcery of Mordor, which is manipulating the element that Melkor/Morgoth put into the essence of the world at the time of its creation.

 

Tolkein was creating mythology, not a believable and realistic world.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Bartman

Of course Gandalf is a minor god/angelic being of the same classification as Sauron and the Balrog.

 

I would hardly classify Gandalf as being in the same category as Sauron, not in power level anyway. Putting Gandalf on the same power level with Sauron, would make the whole ring quest superfluous. But we can say that Sauron is not overwhelmingly powerful, otherwise Isildur would not have been able to battle Sauron with a magic sword.

 

Of course we know that Gandalf bested the Balrog, but died in the process, so he was probably slightly more powerful then the Balrog.

 

So he's allowed to be a bit more flashy in his uses of magic than the average person. Not that the average person has any real access to magic anyway.

 

Actually, if you check the incidental mentions of magic, Gandalf talked about other invisibility rings in the Hobbit -who made these rings?

 

Secondly, we can talk about the ringwraiths, and one being a sorcerorm the Witch-King of Angmar - who was a human being. This sorceror had the ability to manipulate the dagger splinter in Bilbo. So, while this comment about flashiness may seem true on the surface, dig deeper and you'll find more gold nuggets down there.

 

And if you want to say that the ringwraith had his powers because of his supernatural nature, I would beg to differ, because Gandalf specifically mentions him being a power sorceror before he became a ringwraith.

 

I found a great encyclopedia of Tolkien's works for anyone interested.

http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/default.htm?http://www.glyphweb.com/arda/r/ringwraiths.html

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

Tolkein was more interested in mythology than economic or political reality.

 

Yes, but my point was not about economics, but about the magical ability to change lead into gold.

[PhilFleischmann]

Are we talking about Tolkien now?

 

Back to fantasy $ systems:

 

In one of the deendee settings (Forgotten Realms?) One of the main currencies is iron pieces. Pop quiz: Can anyone tell the class why this is a bad idea?

 

Iron rusts! How would you like to look into your wallet and find that your money has disintegrated? Would you accept coin for you labor if it had a shelf life?

 

And then just t'other day I read about an actual historical example of iron as currency. IIRC, it was the Spartans. The government had mandated that iron was money and people weren't allowed to have gold. As a result, people reverted to barter without coin, and had a hard time trading with other cultures because they didn't want coin that turned to brown flakes. Remember also that a lot of trade is accomplished by sailing over salt water - using iron coins would be almost as bad as transporting ice coins across a desert.

 

Copper rusts very slowly and when it does, it remains mostly intact and identifiable.

Silver tarnishes, but can be cleaned.

Gold neither rusts nor tarnishes.

Some alloys also would work reasonably well.

 

For my game world, I don't bother with price lists and keeping strict account of exactly how much money the PCs have. I just keep a general idea of what they can afford. The players don't abuse my lenience by gathering tons of equipment, because they know that if they do, I will take it away and make them become accountants.

 

My $ system is:

Just about everyone uses the barter system.

When people are paid in coin, unskilled laborers are paid in copper, craftsmen and artisans are paid in silver, nobles are bribed/make big purchases with gold.

The PC's usually have a small pouch of silver. Because they spend most of their time travelling and being heroes, they generally don't haul around lots of wealth. If they happen to capture a huge hoard of treasure, they spend it on good times and good deeds. Because money is a fairly casual thing in my campaign, the players are free to develop other motivations.

There are plenty of other important economic considerations, however. Like the fact that some types of goods are simply not available in certain areas. A small remove village doesn't have anyone skilled in making swords. And there are no "magic item shops" anywhere in my world.

Also, I keep track of the industries of different cities. What they produce and what they export to other areas.

And while it may be theoretically possible to turn lead into gold, or iron into silver. The formula required to do so will be extremely difficult for the PCs to discover, the ingredients required are extremely difficult and dangerous to acquire. If there are any NPCs who can do it, they haven't made themselves known to the PCs.

[farik]

We're only planning on using the price list when the game starts to establish some way of having the characters start off on the same foot. Once the game starts we're planning on negotiating all costs based on the port we're in (It's a seafaring game where the edge of the world is a wierd place that if you navigate you can reach the edge of other worlds.

[assault]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Actually, if you check the incidental mentions of magic, Gandalf talked about other invisibility rings in the Hobbit -who made these rings?

 

Secondly, we can talk about the ringwraiths, and one being a sorcerorm the Witch-King of Angmar - who was a human being. This sorceror had the ability to manipulate the dagger splinter in Bilbo. So, while this comment about flashiness may seem true on the surface, dig deeper and you'll find more gold nuggets down there.

 

There's stacks of magic in The Hobbit. The Dwarves use it all the time. In particular, check the bit where they bury the treasure they get from the trolls.

 

It's interesting comparing this to the non-magical image that Dwarfs/Dwarves have picked up courtesy of DnD... Tolkien's version has more in common with the original mythological/folklore critters, surprise, surprise...

 

Alan

[Legendsmiths]

Here is an interesting article on the impact of "magic". Just substitute magic for nanotechnolgy in the article and you can get a pretty good idea of how economies can change.

 

http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/movable_type/2003_archives/002838.html

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Are we talking about Tolkien now?

 

I'll quote myself to you and add the italics and underline for you.

 

Originally posted by Galadorn

Yes, but my point was not about economics, but about the magical ability to change lead into gold.

 

We were talking about turning lead into gold Phil, and whether the ability to do that is stylistically appropriate. I wonder if changing lead into gold has an affect on economics in a fantasy world? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by assault

There's stacks of magic in The Hobbit. The Dwarves use it all the time. In particular, check the bit where they bury the treasure they get from the trolls.

 

Read my bit about that in the "Low Fantasy Anyone?" thread.

 

It's interesting comparing this to the non-magical image that Dwarfs/Dwarves have picked up courtesy of DnD... Tolkien's version has more in common with the original mythological/folklore critters, surprise, surprise...

 

Well, after 25 years of playing D&D, and 26 years of reading Tolkien, I think I know that! Just kidding with you.

 

Honestly, to take Gygax and Arson's (sp?) side: You would think that dwarves, being magical beings, would be hardy against magical spells. On the spell-casting side; the non-magic-user aspect of dwarves ceased with the third edition. So did racial level limits. The world it is achaaaaaanging!

[Vondy]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

Are we talking about Tolkien now?

 

Back to fantasy $ systems:

 

In one of the deendee settings (Forgotten Realms?) One of the main currencies is iron pieces. Pop quiz: Can anyone tell the class why this is a bad idea?

 

Iron rusts! How would you like to look into your wallet and find that your money has disintegrated? Would you accept coin for you labor if it had a shelf life?

 

 

In the early centuries of the celtic iron age iron was more valuable than gold, due to its unprecedented hardness, rarity, and newness. Iron was also a coveted metal for jewelry (there are some excellent examples that have been discovered). The problem with iron pieces isn't that iron rusts. The problem with iron peices is that a culture where iron is more valuable than other metals it won't be wasted on "coin." It will be used for practical items that are worth more than their weight in gold (an iron sword in a time when most people are still using bronze...) - and when iron becomes prolific enough to be considered common, well, then its lost its initial value.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by D-Man

It will be used for practical items that are worth more than their weight in gold (an iron sword in a time when most people are still using bronze...) - and when iron becomes prolific enough to be considered common, well, then its lost its initial value.

 

Indeed, supply and demand.

[Markdoc]

>>>The problem with iron peices is that a culture where iron is more valuable than other metals it won't be wasted on "coin." It will be used for practical items that are worth more than their weight in gold (an iron sword in a time when most people are still using bronze...)<<

 

Yeps. There is a school of thought that the spartans not only chose iron for their currency because they wanted to restrict the use of gold, but also because at the time, it was rare and valuable.

 

cheers, Mark