Creating a fantasy $ system

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Galadorn

I'll quote myself to you and add the italics and underline for you.

You don't have to. I can read. My point wasn't directed at you specifically. There were a few posts in a row that got off the subject of fantasy $ systems, and were instead talking about how much magic there is in Tolkien, apart from its effect on economics.

We were talking about turning lead into gold Phil, and whether the ability to do that is stylistically appropriate. I wonder if changing lead into gold has an affect on economics in a fantasy world? Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

Yes, that's what we were orginally talking about, but then some people started talking about how powerful a wizard Gandalf is and Tolkien's mythological inspirations. I'm not angry at anyone. I just wanted to get the thread back on topic.

 

And I did mention turning lead into gold in my post.

[PhilFleischmann]

Originally posted by Markdoc

Yeps. There is a school of thought that the spartans not only chose iron for their currency because they wanted to restrict the use of gold, but also because at the time, it was rare and valuable.

It may have been to them, but if the surrounding cultures you with to trade with don't consider iron to be rare and valuable, they aren't going to accept your iron coins in trade. A large part of that reason is that they rust. Even if they accepted them in hopes of trading them back to you for other goods you might have, they can't, because the currency itself has a limited shelf-life.

 

And a part of the reason that iron wasn't as valuable to other cultures, wasn't so much because it was plentiful to them, but because they hadn't yet learned to work it effectively. They probably had great appreciation for iron tools and weapons, but small disks of the stuff weren't good for much.

[Ghost who Walks]

Just throwing out an idea here.

 

I remember one book I read where the fantasy money was based on aluminum, which required a farily high knowledge of chemistry and industry to make.

 

Only the wizards knew how to make it, so they effectively were the moneymakers. As part of the book plot, a scientist type from earth shows up and teaches a bunch of villagers how to make aluminum.

 

Just throwing out the idea that money does not necessarily have to be based on gold. IRL, it became valuable because it was hard to find and didn't rust.

[assault]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

Only the wizards knew how to make it, so they effectively were the moneymakers. As part of the book plot, a scientist type from earth shows up and teaches a bunch of villagers how to make aluminum.

 

Err, well, if "magic" is really science in this world, I guess this is fine...

 

At least some decent fantasy writers - Poul Anderson comes to mind - do actually add some "scientific" explanations to some of their magic, but I can't really see the point in most cases.

 

I can't see why aluminium would be a particularly likely candidate as a universal equivalent, particularly if its supply is monopolised like this. It's just not that useful to a pre-industrial society.

 

On Tolkien: while magic is very common in Tolkien, it's not the kind of magic that allows transmutation.

 

In the general case, if a commodity suddenly becomes more abundant, its value will drop. That means that if wizards start creating gold, they are likely to cause serious currency devaluation!

 

Alan

[Markdoc]

>>>In the general case, if a commodity suddenly becomes more abundant, its value will drop. That means that if wizards start creating gold, they are likely to cause serious currency devaluation<<

 

True, but it is a mistake to class coinage as a commodity since generally its value is agreed rather than implicit. We know that coins were usually made out of metals which were generally agreed to be "valuable" - but we also know that coins with the same face value but very different metal contents circulated together. Likewise, it often took a long time for a debased coinage to lose value. In similar vein the discovery of massive silver depositis in medieval Austria did not devalue the silver-based currency - instead it caused local inflation as the local nobles went on a coin-minting spree.

 

cheers, Mark

[assault]

Originally posted by Markdoc

In similar vein the discovery of massive silver depositis in medieval Austria did not devalue the silver-based currency - instead it caused local inflation as the local nobles went on a coin-minting spree.

 

Yes, true, inflation would occur first. The coinage would only devalue if the inflation became persistent enough that it became worthless as a store/measure of value.

 

Or simply inconvenient! If everyone had to carry around wheelbarrow loads of gold in order to buy anything, they might start to resort to more convenient methods.

 

At this point, we are past where I would want my game to go. Clearly, this is a limitation on the kind of magic system I would allow.

 

Then again, it also implies a kind of social logic that I wouldn't necessarily go with either. Why would you use magic to create gold when you can use it to exercise social power more directly? This is a case of modern thought intruding into a premodern society, I suspect.

 

Alan

[Markdoc]

>>>Then again, it also implies a kind of social logic that I wouldn't necessarily go with either. Why would you use magic to create gold when you can use it to exercise social power more directly? <<<<

 

Yep. This is exactly my thinking. IMG, many mages can make gold if they wanted to - but as I pointed out, they have better things to do with their time: many of which will generate gold as a useful side effect.

 

cheers, Mark

[Guest Keneton]

My Solution

 

Years ago (almost 10 to be exact), my friend Jim and I came up with an exchange and money sytem for Fantasy Hero. I remind you that this is OLD, but still servicable. I will attach a few old files to help.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

You don't have to. I can read. My point wasn't directed at you specifically. There were a few posts in a row that got off the subject of fantasy $ systems, and were instead talking about how much magic there is in Tolkien, apart from its effect on economics.

 

Actually Phil, this was discussion oriented to Tolkiens total system of magic, and how his theory of magic applied to the case of turning lead into gold.

 

Stylistically, Tolkein used the Rabbinic method of story telling. Magic wasn't just magic to him, it was sacred and a metaphor for grace. Thus using magic for a profane thing, like changing lead into gold, was tentamount to blasphemy. Get the background thread now?

 

Yes, that's what we were orginally talking about, but then some people started talking about how powerful a wizard Gandalf is and Tolkien's mythological inspirations.

 

True, but I think you missed the point, again. Gandalf was very powerful - but even Gandalf didn't change lead into gold. This means that Tolkien didn't think alchemy was a worthy use of his "sacred" magic. Thus, the conclusion may be drawn, that Tolkien though changing lead into gold was rather silly, and too "super-fantastic" [my words] and irrelevent, to include in his books.

[assault]

Originally posted by Galadorn

Stylistically, Tolkein used the Rabbinic method of story telling. Magic wasn't just magic to him, it was sacred and a metaphor for grace. Thus using magic for a profane thing, like changing lead into gold, was tentamount to blasphemy. Get the background thread now? [/b]

 

The irony here is that the lead into gold business was itself (originally) a metaphor. The "lead" was the human soul!

 

Of course there were lots of different schools of alchemy, in Asia as well as Europe, with different philosophies.

 

In general, however, their goals were spiritual, or at least dealing with questions of eternal life. Mucking about with base matter wasn't the point, except insofar as the aim was to transcend it....

 

Inevitably, some patrons of alchemy had rather more mundane aims, of course.

 

Finally, we should remember that most science emerged when the alchemists emerged from "underground" and began to practice publically. Yes, the early scientists - Newton, Boyle, etc - were WIZARDS!

 

The Royal Society was the British government's own tame college of sorcerors! Ain't that cool?

 

Alan

[lemming]

I've been in a few games where a system such as Keith Curtis' was used. They work pretty well for in game dynamics.

 

Most of the games I were in didn't have money as much of a focus anyway.

Though one particular game run by Sam Bell using Rolehammer as the system (Rolehammer was homebrewed to combine Warhammer & Rolemaster)

 

The main focus was fighting against the forces of chaos, but money bought magic items. In one particular game, a random treasure amount was generated and the players got to roll the dice. Let's just say, it was lottery level luck and the party was way rich. We did some equipment buying, built a castle, etc..., but the best part was an oracle that took the form of a giant pit. If you wanted some information, you dropped something valuable down the pit. Before the vast wealth, a couple hundred gold would do well.

My character Tristan, took things pretty literally and when the next time we needed to ask a question dumped a couple hundred grand (gems mainly). I think I nearly caused a heart attack in a couple of the other players.

 

Like anything in the RPG world, you'll want to focus on where you get the most fun from.

My groups have never been much into Economic minutia, but give them a physics problem...

 

I just like a pretty consistant treatment, but other than that, it just doesn't matter to me.

[Victor]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

... how the heck did the elves in Rivendale or Lothlorien feed themselves? Forests lock up most of their biomass in trees, which aren't famed for being edible. Ditto for Moria in its heyday. All of them must sustain themselves heavily in terms of trade, which means that our hobbits missed all the traffic going in and out of those places.

IIRC, all three had rivers (and/or lakes) within their borders in which to fish.

 

On a more flippant note, imagine elves with long, sharp incisors. It becomes a lot more clear why they favor living in forests. Or the halls of Moria getting larger the deeper they were dug... because the dwarves who created them did too.

 

*munch munch munch* Mmm, limestone.

[Galadorn]

Originally posted by Mutant for Hire

... how the heck did the elves in Rivendale or Lothlorien feed themselves? Forests lock up most of their biomass in trees, which aren't famed for being edible.

 

Ask the Russians about that. LOL "Vant some wodka wit dat bark?" I am referring, of course, to World War I and World War II, where the russian soldiers were forced to eat tree pulp and bark because of the scarcity of other edible foods.

 

Though, I don't think Tolkien had this in mind when he created Lothlorien. Ahhhhh such a melodic name Lothlorien is. LOL.

 

Ditto for Moria in its heyday. All of them must sustain themselves heavily in terms of trade, which means that our hobbits missed all the traffic going in and out of those places.

 

Well, the wood elves we know had developed trade with the Laketowners. So, Tolkien did have some sensibility about economics and business.

[Drakkenkin]

first - bevore someone frames me for my spelling, I'll say it first- my spelling sucks.

 

ANYWAY,

 

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

Just throwing out an idea here.

 

I remember one book I read where the fantasy money was based on aluminum, which required a farily high knowledge of chemistry and industry to make.

 

....

 

Just throwing out the idea that money does not necessarily have to be based on gold. IRL, it became valuable because it was hard to find and didn't rust.

 

I thought this was a real good point because there are many other materials out there that can be used for money, and that would add flavor to a fantasy world.

 

Originally posted by Assault

I can't see why aluminium would be a particularly likely candidate as a universal equivalent, particularly if its supply is monopolised like this. It's just not that useful to a pre-industrial society.

 

1st) The avalability of 'money' it truly monopolised by the government. I know I can't find another leagle place that makes money.

 

2nd) If the powerrs that rule the land state this is what you will use, odds say that is what will be used.

 

3rd) Gold, sillver, and the like are not TRULY usefull to people. The lack of both is what caused them to have some worth, and both are way to soft and or heavy to use for tools.

 

Aluminum falls in to the same 'usfullness' as gold and sliver, so why not make coins from it?

 

I agree that there isn't all that much you can do with aluminum in a post-indus' world but just the fact that everyone dose not have it can make it priceless! In fact they found in a old world king's treasuery a set of aluminum flatware. Said to be worth a lot for the time!

 

 

Over all you may not be able to do much with aluminum wafers made into coins (as someone pointed out) but what are you going to do with a gold, sillver, copper, platnum, ect... wafer. Not much. You want it for a coin that will not decay, and it works perficly for that.

 

----

as a side note:

Pearlite was all the rage for a time. Even the wealthy would buy things made with it... untill they found out its just fossilized dinasaus dung.

[Chris Goodwin]

At one time salt was used as money. In fact, just about any commodity that was easily portable, difficult to counterfeit, didn't easily decay, and that people wanted was used as money.

 

Heck, you could create your own money right now if you wanted. You could write up slips of paper that say "Redeemable upon demand for ______, payable by (your name here)" Probably not too many people would accept it (it's basically an IOU) but, after all, that's what US Federal Reserve notes are.

 

I've always thought the idea of gold "pieces" assumed a standardization across states that might not have existed. In reality, most countries had their own currencies, and a lot of historical currencies are actually units of measurement. (Shekel was originally a unit of measurement of weight, and "peso" is the Spanish word for "weight".)

 

Me, the next time I run a fantasy game I'm going to use one ounce gold 20-mark coins, one ounce silver 1-mark coins, one ounce copper 1/10-mark coins, and one-tenth ounce copper 1-cent coins ("cent" being the Latin word for one one-hundredth).

[Markdoc]

wow: the thread returns from the dead - and even more astonishing it's back on topic.

 

Anyway: regarding aluminum. I can't recall that it was ever used as money (just not enough of it, I guess) but pre-electric arc furnace, it was valuable. Bismark had a helmet made of aluminium: it was relatively light and looked snazzy (being highly polished) - but most importantly it showed he was steenkin' rich. When the Washington monument was finished, it got a cap of silver and gold, surrounded by platinum spikes, capped with a little pyramid of that most valuable of metals - aluminium.

 

As to the reason that gold was used as a trade good and then evolved into money: it's has not got that much to do with the fact that it's rare (although that helps, obviously: you can't make money out of stuff that people can just easily collect) but because it is pretty. Cowrie shells were used as money too for the same reason - they made good jewellery. But they weren't particularly rare - just rare enough that you couldn't go out and get a bushel whenever you felt like it.

 

Gold (and silver) had the advantage of being easily identified, easily portable and long-lasting: plus you could make cool stuff out of it.

 

After all, in the early days, money was just another barter item - early coins were often cut into bits to "make change"

 

cheers, Mark

[Ghost who Walks]

Just to clarify the Aluminum Point. The book I mentioned (almost a month ago!) was basicly a modern retelling of a "Conneticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court".

 

Aluminum was considered a "magical metal" because wizards made it, in secret process. The wizards had a very powerful guild to keep the process secret. Since they made the money, they could also hire an army to chase down anyone who discovered the process.

 

The Hero of the book was a physicisit type, so of course he knew an Industrial method for making Aluminum.

 

Ultimately, as that great philosopher, Homer J. Simpson said: Money can be exchanged for goods and or services. What it is composed of doesn't really matter, other than as a medium of exchage. Merchants have to accept it, basicly.

 

So I throw out some new info: one of the most valuable things in earlier times were dyes. Simply being able to have your clothes be a different color was a big deal...it allowed nobles to be readily identified.

[Alcamtar]

Some other possible reasons for gold:

 

It was one of the earliest known metals, found in pure form in nature. It is easily obtainable, and melts at a relatively low temperature. Thus it undoubtedly had a head start on practically everything else as a symbol of wealth and beauty... sort of like establishing a brand identity or monopoly. And once the wealthy had amassed a large fortune in gold, they had a vested interest in *protecting* the value of gold.

 

It's not really useful for anything else. Think about it: you have a rare metal that is beautiful, found in a pure form, yet rare so only the wealthy can afford it, and it's only use is as a luxury item. Much the same as with jewels -- rare, beautiful, useless.... and very valuable. You wouldn't want to make money out of something that you use in your garden, or something that you eat! If you had tools made of gold, you wouldn't want to use them for fear of damaging their value.

 

It's portable. You can wear your money in the form of jewelry. And while it's portable, it's also heavy enough to easily measure by weight, an important consideration in an age when coins are not of uniform size. You could measure aluminum by weight, but you'd need either a fairly sensitive scale, or a lot of aluminum. Heavy money also feels satisfyingly substantial.

 

It doesn't rust away. Very important!

 

Mike

[Markdoc]

>>>You wouldn't want to make money out of something that you use in your garden, or something that you eat!<<<

 

Actually, several historical forms of money were based on these concepts. The japanese used rice as form of currency (and I'm not talking about barter here, but a fully fledged currency with laws regarding weight, purity and official price lists). The original coins were in fact denominated in amounts of rice and only came into use because it was impractical to transmit large sums of money in rice format. Salt was also used as currency (and in fact, still is, in some places: in Harrar, I watched people using salt to buy clothing and ammunition for their AK-47s).

 

Almost anything can be used as money and at some point probably has. Except dirt. I really can't think of any dirt-based currencies

 

cheers, Mark

[Ghost who Walks]

Originally posted by Markdoc

[bAlmost anything can be used as money and at some point probably has. Except dirt. I really can't think of any dirt-based currencies [/b]

 

*cough*

 

Arguably, feudalism.

The Romans also used to reward soldeirs by giving them land. Granted, they could have given cash...but they were cheap.

 

The amount and availability of currency has a big impact on the campaign world. If there is little currency, everything is barter. Towns will have difficulty working. A lot of currency, and who would want to be a peasant? They would all run off to the city and get jobs.

 

I wonder how long this discussion will go on.

[AnotherSkip]

oh this discussion could go on for years.

 

My personal pet idea is a coin that protects a gem/lump of precious metal inside of it for really high priced coinages for anti clipping rulings.... (using magic/symbology to get the valuation)

[Chris Goodwin]

I once had the idea of wizards implanting mana into "coins" which they could use for currency. Since it was a commodity, any wizard could later pull the mana from the coin (causing it to vanish) to use in the casting of spells.

[Markdoc]

On the topic of bizarre currency, in my FH game, one culture uses "honour" as a currency.

 

In the Halsing culture all property is owned jointly by the females of the clan and thus by default, economic power is concentrated in communal (but largely female) hands. Males can get a stake in this by marrying into a clan, but marrying is serious business and many people never marry, instead living in a sort of civil union, subject to easy dissolution.

 

That works OK, because all clans need male members - to make babies, to act as warriors (generally a male-only occupation), messengers, etc. In general, males tend to travel between clans a lot, so all they own is what they themselves have made/acquired and can carry easily.

 

But how do males acquire expensive items like a destrier, or weapons and armour? Many of them don't have much to barter with except their service and not everybody can make their own gear. The answer is what are called "honor tokens". Each male (who wants to) makes his own tokens, marked with his symbols and certain signs so that he can recognize them. Each token is unique and traditionally very precious and only given for major purchases, since when returned to the person who issued it, the person who returns it can ask for one favour. Anything at all, as long as they can trace the token's parentage (so for example "I got this token from Alred the smith, who had it for a suit of fine armour from Torlok the merchant, who had it from Siad the Singer for rescue at sea, who had it from her lover Aeral, who had it from you for a year's service!") If the issuer recognises the initial gift as accurate, then he is honour bound to pay the debt.

 

The system to some extent can be seen as issuing shares in yourself! If your prospects are good, your tokens will be worth more (so a mighty Hero's token would be worth a fortune, while that of a wizened old man might be worth little or nothing at all). But if you give away too many, they will lose value (since the chance that you will be killed before people can redeem their tokens will rise!). Most warriors only give tokens very sparingly for the simple reason that they can easily land you in a lot of trouble, and also you have to keep track of the ones you have issued!

 

And of course if you welch on a legitimate debt, your tokens will become worthless. Not only that, but since the clan system is based on trust, an honourless man will not only find himself unable to raise any kind of capital, but will find himself refused lodging, food or help. He must either leave the Halsing lands or perish.

 

Naturally, Halsing legends are rife with stories of men who refused to honour their tokens and died miserable deaths, or who honoured their oaths and thereby ended up just as dead - but gloriously, attempting to fufil some mighty quest.

 

cheers, Mark

[assault]

Originally posted by Ghost who Walks

The amount and availability of currency has a big impact on the campaign world. If there is little currency, everything is barter. Towns will have difficulty working. A lot of currency, and who would want to be a peasant? They would all run off to the city and get jobs.

 

I've only just noticed that this thread has come back to life...

 

On "running off to the city": there are two major cases. First, an unfree peasant (serf, slave, or similar) might well run off. On the other hand, it is less likely that a free peasant will.

 

Historically, the drift of population to the cities that allowed the industrial revolution to take off was a very slow business, and in many cases was _enforced_.

 

From at least the fifteenth century, various bits of Europe experienced a process known as enclosure, where landowners decided that it was more profitable for them to take reclaim their land from their tenants, and to drive most of the latter away. The remaining land could be separated from the common fields (enclosed), and used to produce cash crops like wool. Amongst other things, this required a smaller labour force.

 

This process gradually accelerated, reaching its peak in Britain in the 18th Century (a bit later in some other countries, perhaps, and the situation was a bit different in others...). Noticeably, Scotland experienced a very intense form of this process in the aftermath of the 1745-6 Jacobite revolt. These "Highlands clearances" destroyed the old clan structures, with the former heads of the clans forcing their kinsmen off the lands that they had been settled on for centuries. Originally the land freed up was used for sheep, but in many areas, it was found to be more profitable to convert it to deer walks - wilderness! That is, what was once farmland and villages were turned into wastelands, used only for hunting expeditions.

 

The remnants of the clans drifted to the "dark Satanic mills" - the factories. And to the mines. And, in many cases, to the colonies.

 

This process was not voluntary. They would rather have remained peasants, living where their forefathers had lived. They didn't have the choice.