Alchemy, Triggers, VPPs, and other fun

[bigdamnhero]

I'm starting up a new FH campaign. (6ed, low fantasy, dark ages Europe c1000 AD, 225-point characters, 40 AP limit, generally trying to avoid "flashy D&D magic.") One player wants to run an alchemist, and has some neat ideas that I think will fit in well with the campaign. Mechanically I have some ideas how to build it out...but there are a lot of moving parts involved, and I’m not sure how they all interact with each other. I thought I'd try and talk through it here, see if you all think it makes sense, and get any thoughts, feedback & suggestions you might have.

 

Most typical RPG alchemists, including the spells listed in the 6ed Grimoire, involve spending hours/days in the lab brewing potions and whatnot, and then walking out the door with a bunch of potions, dusts, etc built with Triggers or Delayed Effect or something. When you run through all your charges, it's time to go back to the lab to brew some more. That's fine as a basic concept, but there are a few complications here.

 

First off, the player wants to have some flexibility to modify/adapt existing effects and create new effects; so we're probably looking at a VPP. I don’t think I’ve ever done a lot of Triggers inside a VPP, and I’m a little fuzzy on how they work together in practice. For example, RAW sez you can prepare Trigger powers and then switch slots in the Framework without losing the Trigger: “The Triggered power remains in effect, waiting to be Triggered, even though the Framework has shifted to another Power…. Activating the Triggered power doesn’t cause the Framework to switch to that slot or cut off a power currently in use through the Framework.” [6e1 p351] RAW also says a Triggered power with Focus or Charges can set the Trigger multiple times. [6e1 p351] So what is to stop me from putting Trigger on all the slots in my VPP, setting the Trigger for all of them one at a time (including multiple Charges for slots that have them), and then having literally all my powers ready to be Triggered as 0 Phase/No Time Actions, without regard for how many points I have in my Pool, and without having to worry about changing VPP slots in combat? Obviously no sane & experienced Hero GM would allow this, but then what guidelines do you use to determine how many Triggered powers they can have ready at once? Do you tie it to the Pool points, and if so how? 1 for 1, or something else? Or do you come up with an arbitrary number like INT/5, as with Delayed Effect?

 

Next, the campaign is largely a Road Trip adventure, which means long stretches traveling without access to a lab. My initial thought was that would make alchemy unsuitable for PCs, but the player has talked me into it. His idea is that the character has some ability to recharge items and devices on the road, but at a reduced power level. In a properly equipped lab using good materials, she can create 40 AP effects; but when she's doing the same thing around the campfire with whatever she can scrounge, she can only get up to 30 AP. OK, great, cool concept. Mechanically, say she wants to have smoke bombs (Darkness vs Sight). Essentially we create two versions: a 40 AP (8m radius) version with 4 Charges that recover only in the Lab; and a 30 AP (6m radius) version with 4 Charges that recover daily as normal. She starts out with 4x 40 AP Charges fresh from the lab, and as she uses those up on the road they are “replaced” by 30 AP Charges she’s able to kludge together in the field. There’s obviously a bit of bookkeeping here, as the player has to keep track of how many Lab Charges they have vs. Field Charges. But I think treating them as two separate powers will make that mechanically clean. And because they’re in a VPP, the second slot don’t cost anything in Character Points. But it further confuses the question of how many Triggered powers the character can have ready at one time: if she has 2 “Lab” Charges and 2 “Field” Charges, does that count as 1 slot? 2 slots? Or 4 slots?

 

Lastly, alchemical powers are often built as taking Extra Time to prepare, and that certainly seems appropriate here. But then how does Extra Time on the slot interact with the time required to change powers in the VPP? Say changing the VPP takes hours (-1/4), and prepping the slot also takes an hour (-3); are those two additive? Or are those two Limitations effectively redundant, and the player can take one but not both? Or say the VPP can only be changed once per day; maybe that limits how many RP worth of slots/Charges she can prepare per day? That could help limit how many Triggered Charges the character will be carrying around in practice; but give her a couple days to cycle through and we’re back to “multiple charges of every power, all ready to go at any time” which kindof defeats the purpose of a limited VPP.

 

Thoughts?

[wolfrunswithfox]

I would recommend a somewhat simpler approach.  Start with something like this:

 

Alchemy: Variable Power Pool (x base + 40 control cost):

    Only Alchemical Preparations (-1/4), Can only be changed with access to a lab (-1/2), Changing powers takes hours (-1/4)

 

That puts the price for the control cost at a nice round 10 CP.  It also gives you a fairly normal variable power pool that can only be changed in the lab.

 

To handle the ability to recharge items on the road, build the powers in the pool with the Charges limitation, applying the "Charges are expensive, dangerous, or otherwise difficult to recover" condition to represent the time, ingredients, tools, etc that the alchemist needs to prepare more of their recipes away from their lab.

 

Perhaps I'm missing something due to not having read the Grimoire yet, but I don't see the need for triggers on most alchemy powers (I'm visualizing some attacks/dispels and a lot of aids/transforms).  I could be wrong, but I suspect the intent of the rule allowing triggers to persist after the pool powers have changed is to prevent effects that have been specifically set up (land mines, magic mouths, etc) from disappearing from their installed locations due to the hero reallocating their powers elsewhere.  I might suggest a rule of thumb of "install all the alchemical surprises you want in fixed locations, but if you're going to carry it with you, keep it in your pool".

 

If you'd like to give them some additional flexibility, perhaps add a second VPP like this:

 

I Still Have Some of That: Variable Power Pool (x base + 40 control cost)

    Only alchemical preparations that have already been prepared/used in game (-1/2),  y Charges per day (-???)

 

This second pool (probably with a substantially smaller base than the primary one) would allow the character to (a few times per day, represented by the charges) rumage through their supplies and find a charge or two of something they'd used previously.  That would give them a lot of the same "I prepared a big batch of this and it's still good" flexibility without worrying about tracking a lot of persistent triggers.

[Manic Typist]

No answers from me, but thoughts/questions:

 

1) When you say it's a "Road Trip," will the group mostly be sticking near well trodden paths/known roads? Because the PC could then have a wagon - lab on wheels, rolling plot hook on wheels too.

 

2) When the she says she wants flexibility, you've detailed some of it but... have you asked her "Do you want to be like MacGyver with alchemy? Able to whip up something that's more than a little amazing with scant resources and little time?

[Surrealone]

It's tough to be a lab rat that mixes potions in said lab ... if you're always (or mostly) on the road for a road trip adventure.  With that in mind, the hardcore lab rat alchemist is probably right out -- because it just doesn't work well with your intended campaign flavor.  That said, what -would- work is to have a former lab rat alchemist who now travels and makes do with resources that are encountered on the road.  This can be simulated with appropriate detects, skills, and skill rolls that are complementary to a VPP that is ultimately tied to an alchemy skill roll the player makes -- and a scrounging skill roll the GM secretly makes.

 

As an example:

Traditional fantasy alchemists make not only potions, but dusts -- which usually require minerals.  So the player wants to make a dust -- and s/he tells you what s/he wants to make.  You make a secret scrounging roll to determine at a high level if there might be materials at hand.  This ultimately tells you 'yes/no'.  Thereafter you have the player make appropriate detect rolls for the materials, and if the detect roll was made but the scrounging roll failed, then you describe a lack of appropriate materials (or perhaps other materials that aren't the correct ones).  If both the scrounging AND detect succeed, then you describe the location and form of the correct materials ... and the player can then set about gathering/preparing them (another skill roll -- this one's the alchemy roll required to make something using the VPP).  I would definitely apply negatives at -1 per 10 active points to the alchemy roll.  I would also apply negatives to the scrounging roll if the player were looking for something wildly out of place (example: iron ... in a desert) ... or bonuses if the player were looking for something appropriate to the setting (example: sand/silica ... in a desert).

 

The same thinking can apply to oils/potions/gasses -- except now a detect dealing with fluids (a superset of both liquids and gasses) is in order.

 

As for triggers -- it should take at least a half phase to use a dust, quaff a potion, or apply an oil.  It's your call if potions should have immediate effect or a delayed effect (because digestion is required after consumption), but I'd think dusts and oils would take effect immediately since they're both usually topical in nature.  You might limit the entire VPP to N uses a day via charges -- and I'd think that the dusts, potions, and oils produced from it would all be based on continuing charges.  If you want to make it more interesting, perhaps the duration of the continuing charge is a range (from O to P) which you, the GM, secretly determine by random roll -- with an appropriate limitation to the VPP if you go this route.

 

Only after the overall approach were determined would I set about worrying over trigger use, as it really seems like it is the last detail in the mix to hash out.

 

That's all I've got.

[Lucius]

While the approach of "roll first to determine if materials are available, then roll to find them" has merit, I don't see any reason to require some special "Detect" power to find things. The situation doesn't call for a special sense, just ordinary senses (normal Perception rolls) combined with Skills.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

That's a palinndromedary right there. I know that not because I have "Detect Palindromedary" but because I perceive it with the same power of vision I use to see anything else and happen to know what a palindromedary looks like (Knowledge Skill: Palindromedaries)

[Surrealone]

While the approach of "roll first to determine if materials are available, then roll to find them" has merit, I don't see any reason to require some special "Detect" power to find things. The situation doesn't call for a special sense, just ordinary senses (normal Perception rolls) combined with Skills.

Fair -- but what I was going for was the discriminatory/analyze piece of it.  That could just as easily be done with a geology skill for minerals, a fauna identification skill for plants, etc, I suppose -- but discriminatory and analyze would be much more potent/powerful in knowing exactly how much gold was in a rock extracted from a quartz or slate vein ... or how much alchemical material could be extracted from a plant.

 

It's certainly not required, but it'd be a lot more accurate and efficient than grabbing a few rocks, breaking them up to obtain material, measuring to see if you have enough, fetching some more rocks because you're short material, then lather/rinse/repeat -- which is what would likely have to be done in the real world unless someone had a really solid means of eyeballing how much gold was inside of a rock through which s/he couldn't see.

[doccowie]

I'm not an FH aficianado, so feel free to take this with a pinch of, well, salt, if you make your Geology skill : -)

From a Hero point of view, we could start with you and the player deciding what effect and limitations you are happy with, and pricing that up?

 

It sounds like the Lab limitation won't work (though if he sometimes gets to the lab you could add a separate heavily limited VPP?) .

Does he want Requires Skill Roll as a limitation? (or again, he could have a bonus VPP with RSR?)

 

In fact, by its very nature alchemy usually involves planning - does he really want the extreme flexibility of a VPP to be able to make things up on the fly?

Would this be better as a Multipower with maybe six slots (and charges/delayed phase etc, etc - whatever he wants) and then allow a rewrite if this is not letting him do what he wants?

Perhaps a Power roll to tweak the abilities a little? I like Surreal's idea about tying it to the potency of the reagents he has found, with an agreed random element to aspects of the creations.

Or you could even have a Naked Power Advantage of Up To +1/2 Advantages for up to (say 30AP) of powers with RSR Alchemy/OAF/maybe other things as it is quite expensive...

 

But in the end, the players says what he wants his character to do, the GM gives a ruling on cost, they both negotiate, everyone is happy!

[eepjr24]

You could also check out some of the systems KS has designed. Not the exact alchemy yo uare looking for, but probably will give ideas on triggers and the like.

 

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItemsArtificing_Ephemeral.aspx

 

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/RunecraftingSystem.aspx

[bigdamnhero]

Alchemy: Variable Power Pool (x base + 40 control cost):

    Only Alchemical Preparations (-1/4), Can only be changed with access to a lab (-1/2), Changing powers takes hours (-1/4)

 

That puts the price for the control cost at a nice round 10 CP.  It also gives you a fairly normal variable power pool that can only be changed in the lab.

 

To handle the ability to recharge items on the road, build the powers in the pool with the Charges limitation, applying the "Charges are expensive, dangerous, or otherwise difficult to recover" condition to represent the time, ingredients, tools, etc that the alchemist needs to prepare more of their recipes away from their lab.

Not bad. But given how rarely the character is going to have access to a real lab, that's going to be way more restrictive than the player (or I) want. If the character can't change powers in the field, there's no point in playing an alchemist at all in this campaign. (Which, again, was my first answer when alchemy was brought up.)

 

Perhaps I'm missing something due to not having read the Grimoire yet, but I don't see the need for triggers on most alchemy powers (I'm visualizing some attacks/dispels and a lot of aids/transforms).  I could be wrong, but I suspect the intent of the rule allowing triggers to persist after the pool powers have changed is to prevent effects that have been specifically set up (land mines, magic mouths, etc) from disappearing from their installed locations due to the hero reallocating their powers elsewhere.  I might suggest a rule of thumb of "install all the alchemical surprises you want in fixed locations, but if you're going to carry it with you, keep it in your pool".

Alchemical items typically take tons of Limitations to create - extra time, concentration, equipment, etc - but can be activated quickly and easily. That's the short definition of Trigger. So I see why they're often built that way; the confusion comes when you have a lot of them in a Framework. Your distinction between fixed vs mobile is a good point - I'll have to think about that.

 

1) When you say it's a "Road Trip," will the group mostly be sticking near well trodden paths/known roads? Because the PC could then have a wagon - lab on wheels, rolling plot hook on wheels too.

Not really. They'll probably be able to have horses most of the time, but wagons would be problematic. The first time they have to ditch the wagon to go cross-country, there's no getting it back once you reach a good road. (In a more high fantasy game, she could maybe shrink the lab wagon down and carry it in her pocket, but I think that's a bit too flashy for this game.)

 

2) When the she says she wants flexibility, you've detailed some of it but... have you asked her "Do you want to be like MacGyver with alchemy? Able to whip up something that's more than a little amazing with scant resources and little time?

Yes at least to some degree, although it's certainly not something that will be done in combat like a superheroic gadgeteer.

 

what -would- work is to have a former lab rat alchemist who now travels and makes do with resources that are encountered on the road.  This can be simulated with appropriate detects, skills, and skill rolls that are complementary to a VPP that is ultimately tied to an alchemy skill roll the player makes -- and a scrounging skill roll the GM secretly makes.

Well phrased, and that is exactly what we're shooting for. The player & I discussed whether we wanted to have scrounging rolls and such like you discuss, or for simplicity just say that's a part of the Power Roll. ("You failed your roll? I guess you weren't able to find suitable materials.") The jury is still out on that one, but the concept is solid.

[bigdamnhero]

You could also check out some of the systems KS has designed. Not the exact alchemy yo uare looking for, but probably will give ideas on triggers and the like.

 

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/shrikeMagicItemsArtificing_Ephemeral.aspx

 

http://killershrike.com/FantasyHERO/HighFantasyHERO/MagicSystems/RunecraftingSystem.aspx

Thanks. Rune magic was actually the player's second choice when I originally vetoed alchemy, and we borrowed several rune magic ideas when thinking up how we wanted alchemy to work.

[bluesguy]

One way to handle the lab is to designate which parts of their alchemy require what level of lab.  So maybe simple healing, flash-bang, and other almost 'mundane' items they could literally make on the road using fairly common items - brass pot, fire, herbs and minerals.  Things that require serious distilling and time can only be done in a moderate sized village - someplace where they are able to make hard liquor (not beer/ale/wine).  A place like that will have the minimum set of items for a simple lab.  Anything really complicated requires a town that has a glassblower and a good smith to make items the alchemist would need.

[JackValhalla]

Trigger in a VPP really is gross. More than one of my "Take down Doctor Destroyer on 350 points" builds use that trick. 

 

Lot of good suggestions in this thread, let me add one more: As GM, maintain a fiat for the Extra Time limitation. The player doesn't determine how much time it takes, you do. This makes downtime a scarce resource that needs to be frugally dispensed. You relax or restrict this limitation to strike whatever balance you feel is appropriate to the campaign.

[bigdamnhero]

Thanks everyone for your input! Here's what I've come up with so far. It's wordier than I'd like, but I'm trying to make sure it's all clear in my mind. Let me know what you think? If this was your game, would this sound fun? Balanced? What changes might you make?

 

Alchemy:

• Concerned with the nature of matter, transforming substances, turning lead into gold, etc.
• As of 1001, alchemy is extremely rare in Christian Europe but fairly popular in the Muslim world. It is considered more “science” than “magic” per se. The churches generally eye it with some suspicion, but don’t regard it as evil or demonic.
• Alchemy typically requires a lot of lab equipment, materials, etc. Creating alchemical effects “in the field” is much more difficult, and is only attempted by the most experienced alchemists – or the most desperate.
• Most alchemical effects are created as some form of item – potions, powders, devices, etc. But for rules clarity I mostly just use the generic terms “powers” or “slots” here.
• Alchemy Skill: This INT based Power Skill is required for the creation of alchemical effects and items using known processes or recipes. Various Knowledge or Science Skills may also serve as Complimentary Rolls, or for simplicity those can be assumed to be part of the Alchemy Skill Roll.
• Alchemy VPP: Most alchemical effect and items are built as a Variable Power Pool.
  • Individual powers (ie slots) must be defined in advance.
  • The maximum number of powers (ie slots) an Alchemist is capable of knowing is equal to their INT score. (Alchemist PCs typically start with ~INT/2 to allow room for growth.)
  • The Control cost of the VPP represent the maximum effect (AP) the alchemist can achieve in a laboratory setting.
  • The Pool must be no less than ½ the Control Cost, and may be bought higher than that.
  • The VPP takes the following Limitations:
    • All slots must be pre-defined, number of slots limited to INT score (-1/2)
    • Slightly Limited Class Of Powers (Alchemy, -1/4)
    • RP of Triggered items that can be held ready limited to Pool x2 (-1/4)
    • (Because all alchemical slots take Extra Time (below), VPPs may not take an Advantage or Limitation for how quickly slots can be changed.)
  • All slots take the following Common Limitations:
    • Trigger (+1/4) – see below
    • Requires an Alchemy Skill Roll (typically @ -1 per 10 AP, -1/2)
    • Focus – lab gear (OAF, bulky, -1½) – many slots will also use Expendable materials
    • Extra Time (1 Hour per 10 AP, Only to activate, -1¾) – some individual slots may take even longer.
    • Concentration, 1/2 DCV (-1/4)
    • Gestures (-1/4)
    • Minor Side Effects (minor explosions, fires, etc on failure, -1/4)
    • Most take Charges (see below), but that may not fit for all powers.
  • The following Limitations are not normally allowed on alchemical powers: Concentration (0 DCV); Costs Endurance; Incantations; Lockout; or Unified Power.
  • Some powers may be built outside of the VPP at normal cost. This may be particularly appropriate for defensive powers or others that are in effect most of the time.

 

• Preparing Alchemical Powers:
  • Many alchemical effects take considerable time and effort to prepare, but are quick to activate. This is generally reflected by a +¼ Trigger Advantage for all slots.
  • The exception to this is certain transmuted items that are always in effect once prepared, such as many defensive powers, or lead that has been transmuted into gold.  
  • Once all the preparations have been completed (Extra Time, etc), the item or effect is created with the full number of Charges on that slot (or less if the player wishes), and the Trigger set if appropriate.
  • Typically an alchemist can work on creating multiple powers at once, as long as they have enough Points in their Pool to have multiple slots active.
  • Once a power is prepared, the alchemist can switch slots normally and work on a different power without affecting the Trigger – the prepared items remain set and ready to activate.
  • In order to maintain game balance, the total RP cost of alchemical powers a character may maintain currently active or prepared (ie with set Triggers) is limited to 2x the Pool Cost.  The alchemist may give items to other characters, leave them in fixed locations, etc, but they still count against this “readied” limit. Note that powers with multiple Charges only count once against this limit.
• Activating Triggered Powers:
  • Activating a Triggered power does not affect any other slots currently active; nor does it affect any other powers with set Triggers, or other Charges of the same power.
  • The time required to trigger an alchemical power may vary. Most potions and the like take at least a ½ Phase to drink, and the effects may or may not kick in immediately. Some defensive powers may be triggered as a 0 Phase or No Time Action, depending on the nature of the power.
  • Many Triggered powers, particularly potions and the like, are built as Expendable Foci and are used up when activated. Resetting the Trigger for such item therefore requires obtaining replacement materials and another use of the power.
  • Some Triggers may expire after a certain time period. Since the value of the Trigger Advantage cannot be reduced below +1/4, the GM may allow “Trigger expires after ____” to be taken as a stand-alone Limitation for some powers.
• Charges: Most alchemical powers are bought with limited Charges. The number and type of Charges may vary with different powers/slots.
  • In many cases, the Charges of a power can be treated narratively as individual items, i.e. – a potion with four charges can treated as four separate potions. Mechanically however, it is important to remember that they still count as one power when calculating how many powers the character may have ready, etc.
  • Most Alchemical Charges do not automatically recover daily like normal. Instead, they are re-created by going through another full use of the power.
  • This is typically done in well-equipped laboratories well-stocked with high-quality materials. To reflect this, most Charges are bought with the Adder “Charges Only Recover In Lab” (-1/2).
• Field Work:
  • Some alchemists are able to create some effects (ie – recover charges) even when working in the field with limited equipment and scrounged materials. Alchemists who want to do work in the field generally must still carry some minimal lab equipment with them (see Equipment below).
  • Any power the alchemist wants to be able to create in the field should have a second “Field” version of the power stated out as follows:
    • Field versions of powers are generally restricted to no more than 75% of the AP cost of the regular “Lab” version, to reflect working with inferior equipment and materials. This reduction of AP cost may come from reducing the Base effect and/or reducing or eliminating Advantages as appropriate.
    • Field versions do not buy the “Charges Only Recover In Lab” (-1/2) Adder. The difficulty of replacing materials (ie Expendable Foci) remains unchanged.
    • For simplicity, most other Limitations should be kept the same as on the Lab version, unless it makes sense to change them.
  • Not all alchemical powers can be effectively duplicated in the field. As a general guideline, only about half of a character’s powers should have Field versions; the player and GM should agree on which ones.
  • If a character has both Lab and Field versions of a power, that power only counts once towards the total number of powers the character can know.
  • Some bookkeeping may be necessary to keep track of which Charges are full-power Lab versions, and which are the low-power Field versions. For purposes of counting against the number of powers a character may have active or ready, players may count Lab and Field Charges together as one power, provided together they don’t exceed the number of Charges on the slot.
    • Example: An alchemist has a smoke bomb power that costs 5 RP for the Lab version and 4 RP for the Field version; both versions have 4 Charges. Having used up 2 of her Lab-created Smoke bombs, the character creates 2 Field Charges to replace them. The combined smoke bombs only count as 5 RP against the character’s limit of powers. Had she decided to create all 4 Field Charges, that would count as a second power and therefore another 4 RP towards her limit.
• Researching new powers: Alchemists can create new powers or modify existing powers, through use of the Inventor Skill. The GM has final word on what constitutes a “new” power vs. modifying an existing one.
  • Making changes to a power the alchemist already knows typically takes 1 day of research per 20 AP in the power, and requires an Inventor Roll at -1 per 20 AP.
  • Inventing a new power typically takes 1 day of research per 10 AP in the power, and requires an Inventor Roll at -1 per 10 AP.
  • The alchemist may take the usual bonuses from additional time, materials, etc.
  • Failing an Inventor Roll has no Side Effects. The alchemist can usually try again later, but the subsequent roll is at a -1 for every 1 the previous roll failed by. This penalty is cumulative over multiple rolls.
  • Newly invented powers count against the total number of powers a character can know. It is up to the GM whether or not a “modified” power is different enough to count towards that total. A player may always choose to drop old powers in order to make room for new ones.
• Lab Equipment and Materials: The details of exactly what kind of equipment and materials are needed, and their costs, can be as detailed or as vague as the GM & player wish. Some general guidelines are presented here.
  • A well-stocked alchemy lab typically costs 1000-5000 silver pieces to set up, and takes up one room or more. To reflect the cost of maintaining the lab and stocks of materials, the GMs may require players to pay 20-50 silver per month, or alternately have them pay 1 silver per 10 AP of every power they create.
  • Traveling alchemists who want to work in the field must generally still carry some basic equipment with them. A typical traveling alchemy lab costs 500-1000 silver, fits in a small traveling chest or pack, and weighs 40-60 pounds. As with fixed labs, the GM may have a player pay for resupplying materials – tho probably at a reduced rate to reflect their generally poorer quality – or else have the player scrounge whatever materials are available.
  • With both fixed and traveling equipment, high or poor-quality equipment and materials can add or subtract to Alchemy Skill Rolls.