How would you build a spell to heal Transform damage?

[WatchDogMan]

I'm trying to build a comprehensive spell to reverse transformations.  Would Healing the targets Body do the trick?  What about victims of a Soul or Mental Transform?  Would it just be easier (or even legal) to build a Transform that reverses other Transforms?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

[Wardsman]

I'm trying to build a comprehensive spell to reverse transformations.  Would Healing the targets Body do the trick?  What about victims of a Soul or Mental Transform?  Would it just be easier (or even legal) to build a Transform that reverses other Transforms?

 

Any help would be appreciated.

Heal with limitation that it it is only for transform damage. Though often it is easier to use the transforms's escape clause.

Personally a soul or mental is another effect so you would a different heal each.  At least under 5th edition rules. But nothing state they can't be linked if the gm allows.

[Doc Democracy]

You might also simply boost the victim's REC score (only for transform damage) so that they heal themselves more quickly.  That damage is based on REC isn't it?  Or am I misremembering??

[Urlord]

Umm, wouldn't the logical power to use be Dispell?

[eepjr24]

For 6e, it would likely require something other than healing. 6e1, 235:

 

Transform: At the GM’s option, a character can define his Healing as working versus Transform damage only. This doesn’t qualify for a Limitation value, any more than Flash Healing does. Transform Healing only works against Transforms that define the “heal back” method a “normal healing of BODY” or the like; it has no effect on a Transform that defines the healing method as, for example, “when kissed by a princess.”

Using Dispel would require GM approval. 6e1, 194:

 

Instant Powers: Dispel cannot affect the lasting effects of Instant Powers. For example, a character cannot use Dispel to “heal” the damage caused by a Blast, reverse a Transform, or to get rid of an existing Entangle — Blast, Transform, and Entangle are Instant Powers, and once they’ve been used and taken effect, there’s nothing for the Dispel to “turn off.”

Transform would work without any modifications. You would need to either have 3 transforms or one transform with +1/2 in Variable Advantage to handle the switch from Body to Ego to PRE (if using that rule). By it's very nature this will be more expensive than the original transform. It is much cheaper to prevent the transform from happening via Power Defense than to affect it once the damage is done.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

You can't dispel transform because its an instant attack, there's nothing to dispel. Another transform is the most logical device, although a GM may let you buy a Heal to Body that targets the Body the transform affected; its not exactly by the rules, but it kind of makes sense.

[eepjr24]

You can't dispel transform because its an instant attack, there's nothing to dispel. Another transform is the most logical device, although a GM may let you buy a Heal to Body that targets the Body the transform affected; its not exactly by the rules, but it kind of makes sense.

By the same token, the GM could allow Dispel to work, it is mentioned in reference to magical transforms in FH specifically. But if you are looking for something that always works, Severe Transform with variable advantage would always do the trick, expensive though it would be.

 

- E

[Christopher R Taylor]

I woudn't require a severe transform to fix someone back the way they were.  Major maybe, or even minor, depending on the transform effect.  Basically one category lower, I'd think, so if it was a severe transform human to statue of an eagle, then major to transform "petrified eagle statue back to human"

[eepjr24]

I woudn't require a severe transform to fix someone back the way they were.  Major maybe, or even minor, depending on the transform effect.  Basically one category lower, I'd think, so if it was a severe transform human to statue of an eagle, then major to transform "petrified eagle statue back to human"

We differ here. If it required a severe to get to it, it requires a severe to get back to me. If I transform a human into a dragon, it is severe. Turning them back (or converting a dragon to a human) is equally severe.

 

- E

[zslane]

I think maybe a little help from the campaign setting itself can help here. For instance, if we're talking about Transforms that are used to implement "curses" (of the D&D variety, let's say), then you could establish Curse as a form of special effect. Then a "Remove Curse" spell could be a Transform "Cursed to non-Cursed Individual", which is basically just the reverse of the original Transform-based spell that turned the victim into a cursed individual in the first place. And it doesn't matter that the curse turned them into a toad or gave them seven years of Unluck or whatever. You aren't "healing" the effects of the original Transform, per se, you are instead reversing the Cursed "state" that the individual is in.

[Wardsman]

You can't dispel transform because its an instant attack, there's nothing to dispel. Another transform is the most logical device, although a GM may let you buy a Heal to Body that targets the Body the transform affected; its not exactly by the rules, but it kind of makes sense.

I see the logic. But that is an interesting change.

Doesn't transform still have an escape clause? And wouldn't analyze magic pick that up?

[eepjr24]

I see the logic. But that is an interesting change.

Doesn't transform still have an escape clause? And wouldn't analyze magic pick that up?

Transform has to have a method to change back. That can be "Heals back BODY normally", an all-or-nothing method for reversing the Transformation (True Love's kiss) or some other method that the GM approves. 

 

Analyze Magic does not mention anything about sensing reversal conditions for a spell. I would lean toward that being more under Spell Research but YMMV. If the spell was a common "Transform to Seal", for instance, that was cast by Witches of Furelled and it always needed the subject to be bathed in whale oil to reverse, I would give that information to the player if they succeeded in using Analyze magic when the spell was cast. Analyze Magic after the fact would not even tell you that the seal was enchanted, you'd need Detect Magic for that.

 

(Caveat: All of the above is based on 6e rules, which I THINK is what you were asking about).

 

- E

[zslane]

Transforms can produce such a wide variety of effects/outcomes, that to call it "damage" strikes me as problematic. I think it is damage only while it is accumulating (BODY damage) towards the actual transformation. After that there's nothing to heal per se. But there is a transformation to reverse/undo.

 

I would carefully categorize Transforms in the campaign world by special effect: polymorphs, curses, charms, etc. And then it becomes easy to make the reversal method be another Transform defined as an anti-polymorph, anti-curse, etc.

 

Ex: Curse of Enervation: Major Transform "to Character with 1 STR, 1 END, and 1 REC." The way to reverse/heal this curse is to cast the Remove Curse spell, which is defined as a Major Transform "Cursed individual to un-cursed individual".

[Wardsman]

Transform has to have a method to change back. That can be "Heals back BODY normally", an all-or-nothing method for reversing the Transformation (True Love's kiss) or some other method that the GM approves. 

 

Analyze Magic does not mention anything about sensing reversal conditions for a spell. I would lean toward that being more under Spell Research but YMMV. If the spell was a common "Transform to Seal", for instance, that was cast by Witches of Furelled and it always needed the subject to be bathed in whale oil to reverse, I would give that information to the player if they succeeded in using Analyze magic when the spell was cast. Analyze Magic after the fact would not even tell you that the seal was enchanted, you'd need Detect Magic for that.

 

(Caveat: All of the above is based on 6e rules, which I THINK is what you were asking about).

 

- E

 

I don't see why analyze magic couldn't see into the structure of the spell and see a reversal condition if the success roll was high enough. But it is a judgement call.  It seems to me when to reverse back would be coded in the structure of the spell so to speak. BUt then we get into the instant effect bit and the judgement of whether there is residual magic or not left.

 

Transforms can produce such a wide variety of effects/outcomes, that to call it "damage" strikes me as problematic. I think it is damage only while it is accumulating (BODY damage) towards the actual transformation. After that there's nothing to heal per se. But there is a transformation to reverse/undo.

 

I would carefully categorize Transforms in the campaign world by special effect: polymorphs, curses, charms, etc. And then it becomes easy to make the reversal method be another Transform defined as an anti-polymorph, anti-curse, etc.

 

Ex: Curse of Enervation: Major Transform "to Character with 1 STR, 1 END, and 1 REC." The way to reverse/heal this curse is to cast the Remove Curse spell, which is defined as a Major Transform "Cursed individual to un-cursed individual".

per the rules transforms do body. If they heal back you have to track that body. It would no issue to track the transform roll results in one that does not heal back.  That is your effect. If you reduce that accumulated "body" some way , say healing targeting transform damage,it heals back.

[eepjr24]

I don't see why analyze magic couldn't see into the structure of the spell and see a reversal condition if the success roll was high enough. But it is a judgement call.  It seems to me when to reverse back would be coded in the structure of the spell so to speak. BUt then we get into the instant effect bit and the judgement of whether there is residual magic or not left.

You can run it however you like, of course. But per RAW, Analyze magic does not see "residual magic" at all. That is a Detect Magic. It is specifically called out as something that someone with no magic ability can use, even. 

 

From 6e FH, 114:

 

a character who sees another character cast a spell can make an Analyze Magic roll to identify the spell in question

[zslane]

per the rules transforms do body. If they heal back you have to track that body. It would no issue to track the transform roll results in one that does not heal back.  That is your effect. If you reduce that accumulated "body" some way , say healing targeting transform damage,it heals back.

I think I see what you're saying. Yes, I suppose if the GM wants to allow it, all-or-nothing Transforms could be reversed by healing back the BODY damage via a healing spell specifically defined for that purpose in the campaign setting.

[bigdamnhero]

Transforms can produce such a wide variety of effects/outcomes, that to call it "damage" strikes me as problematic.

Yeah, Transform is such a wide grab-bag of sfx, I'd have a hard time justifying a single "cure" that reverses all effects. Just to take the two examples listed under Transform in 6e1 (p307), a spell that reverses a Beastman Spell probably shouldn't do much to reverse a superhero's Instant Costume Change...

 

Can you give us a little more detail on what sort of Transforms you're thinking of? I know we throw around "Reason From Effect" a lot here, but I think you might be better served thinking about it in terms of special effect first, and the Power Transform second.

[Wardsman]

Transform has to have a method to change back. That can be "Heals back BODY normally", an all-or-nothing method for reversing the Transformation (True Love's kiss) or some other method that the GM approves. 

 

Analyze Magic does not mention anything about sensing reversal conditions for a spell. I would lean toward that being more under Spell Research but YMMV. If the spell was a common "Transform to Seal", for instance, that was cast by Witches of Furelled and it always needed the subject to be bathed in whale oil to reverse, I would give that information to the player if they succeeded in using Analyze magic when the spell was cast. Analyze Magic after the fact would not even tell you that the seal was enchanted, you'd need Detect Magic for that.

 

(Caveat: All of the above is based on 6e rules, which I THINK is what you were asking about).

 

- E

Must be a 6th edition change but in 5th any detect can be built with discriminate and analyze. 

How about a detect transform spell with analyze built in? 

A mage always needs good diagnostics tools.

[eepjr24]

Must be a 6th edition change but in 5th any detect can be built with discriminate and analyze. 

How about a detect transform spell with analyze built in? 

A mage always needs good diagnostics tools.

Ooooooh. We have a failure to communicate. Analyze Magic is a specific skill in FH 6e. It looks like you are talking about Detect: Magic bought with the Discriminatory and Analyze sense modifiers. In that case, I would certainly allow someone who spent the points for that ability to at a minimum have a good idea what the reverse condition is and exactly what it is on a good roll. 

 

For reference, Analyze Magic is a skill, it existed in 5e as well, look under Analyze on 5e pg 49.

 

- E

[Wardsman]

Ooooooh. We have a failure to communicate. Analyze Magic is a specific skill in FH 6e. It looks like you are talking about Detect: Magic bought with the Discriminatory and Analyze sense modifiers. In that case, I would certainly allow someone who spent the points for that ability to at a minimum have a good idea what the reverse condition is and exactly what it is on a good roll. 

 

For reference, Analyze Magic is a skill, it existed in 5e as well, look under Analyze on 5e pg 49.

 

- E

 

Nods. I'm alway confused on the differences on those two.

I'm thinking of making Analyze the skill a prerequisite for buying Analyze the sense. If I work it right Detect or sense magic without and with it will cost the same . The character automatically picks up the power when he/she gains the skill at the right level.

[WatchDogMan]

Yeah, Transform is such a wide grab-bag of sfx, I'd have a hard time justifying a single "cure" that reverses all effects. Just to take the two examples listed under Transform in 6e1 (p307), a spell that reverses a Beastman Spell probably shouldn't do much to reverse a superhero's Instant Costume Change...

 

Can you give us a little more detail on what sort of Transforms you're thinking of? I know we throw around "Reason From Effect" a lot here, but I think you might be better served thinking about it in terms of special effect first, and the Power Transform second.

 

Simply put, it's a superheros game with mutant powers, hyper-tech, and magic.  I'm leaving it up to the others to handle powers and tech, but I'm building a character who uses magic to help people who have been harmed by magic.  Banish demons, lift curses, break fae bargains, that sort of thing.  He has simple quick-cast spells for combat too, but I don't really need help building a Blast.

 

The kind of restorative magic I have in mind isn't meant for combat, and it would only work against magical effects.  So we still have to subdue the Beastman somehow, but then I can step in and restore his stolen humanity.  If your fancy costume comes from magic, and you feel like standing around for 20 minutes while I do a ritual, yeah I can turn it back into bluejeans, but if that's a costume you put on with super-speed, or a suit on nano-tech that can change at will... I got nothing.

 

My goal is to be able to fix any sort of bad magical thing that happens to a person, short of death.  (at that point the "fix" tends to be worse than the problem...)

 

Does that help?

[Wardsman]

Simply put, it's a superheros game with mutant powers, hyper-tech, and magic.  I'm leaving it up to the others to handle powers and tech, but I'm building a character who uses magic to help people who have been harmed by magic.  Banish demons, lift curses, break fae bargains, that sort of thing.  He has simple quick-cast spells for combat too, but I don't really need help building a Blast.

 

The kind of restorative magic I have in mind isn't meant for combat, and it would only work against magical effects.  So we still have to subdue the Beastman somehow, but then I can step in and restore his stolen humanity.  If your fancy costume comes from magic, and you feel like standing around for 20 minutes while I do a ritual, yeah I can turn it back into bluejeans, but if that's a costume you put on with super-speed, or a suit on nano-tech that can change at will... I got nothing.

 

My goal is to be able to fix any sort of bad magical thing that happens to a person, short of death.  (at that point the "fix" tends to be worse than the problem...)

 

Does that help?

Your answer seems to me to be dispel or suppress vs all forms of Magic or magical transformation.

Now I would allow dispel to work against a transform that is already been cast and in effect. But I do not know if there is a 6th edition kink to that.

Now if you are running this in a veep you have a lot options  on the fly. I do suggest having a list goto"rotes" for your character. 

And if you are running in a VP you can narrow your dispel SFX to get more dice per points and change as needed.

[bigdamnhero]

That does help. If you're looking for something that broad, I almost think you're going to need two different powers: a Dispel for things that can be dispelled (ie continuing effects), and a Transform for everything else? Maybe even with Variable sfx or something? It's a good idea, and certainly genre-appropriate, but magic is so broad I'm not sure there's any one single Power that can undo everything.