[Challenge] Champions Online Converted to Champions 6E

[TheQuestionMan]

Champions Online Converted to Champions 6E

 

New Archetypes and Templates

 

Celestial Blaster/Healer

 

Hmmm...

 

QM

[CptPatriot]

Since I play Champions Online, I'm willing to help out with this. I'll add to this when I get on my PC, so I can refer to the game.

[Christopher]

I would be up for it, considering it was the MMO that even brought me to the RPG.

Has just been age since I had it installed. Whose launcher do I need again to download it? And whose account system do I have to log in with?

[TheQuestionMan]

Champions Online Wiki - Archetypes

http://www.championswiki.com/index.php?title=Archetypes 

[CptPatriot]

You can either use the Arc launcher or Steam.

[TheQuestionMan]

Champions Online Wiki - The Celestial

http://www.championswiki.com/index.php?title=Celestial

[Christopher]

You can either use the Arc launcher or Steam.

It was Perfect World. The same guys doing Star Trek Online and Neverwinter Online.

 

Indeed I remembered:

If I enable "show all games", I could even download the STO and NWO client with the same launcher.

[TheQuestionMan]

Working with Mac OS here. Had the game on my old PC.

 

Remembering the Celestial archetype nostalgically.

 

Reminds me of my Character Street Angel (Tandy Bowen/Dagger homage character).

 

QM

[Christopher]

Freeform vs Archetype:

Freeform (where you can freely selelect the powers) is closer to real Hero System.

 

The Archetype system (where certain choices are locked in) is closer to what is actually practiced. Where everyone picks a certain Archetype (like the ones from Champions 6E) in order to give the group some coherence and easy defined roles wich works better for the MMO world.

As I never went full member, I do not know how usefull Freeform is. But afaik they queued for a seperate set of PvP.

 

MMO role translation:

Tank equates mostly to brick.

 

Healer is a MMO nessesity. A affordance.

Group and Raid bosses are realised by giving the bosses immunity to a lot of cheap "I win" combinations and giving them a LOT of HP. Wich in turn draws out combats.

As a positive side effect, every Healer class can usually be run as a DPS class too. Same stats, just somewhat different selections.

 

Mechanic translation:

Taunting:

A Hero Brick would use Entangles and/or Grabs to keep the attention of the enemy. Thier defenses bring nothing if they can not force the enemy to attack them or otherwise make themself an issue. A MMO has to go for a codified system like Taunting.

 

Energy Builders:
This is a more active form of "having recovery". Energy Builders build Energy (Endurance Equivalent).

 

Differences MMO/P&P RPG:

As I said in other places, the gameflow of a computer game - in particular a MMO - and P&P RPG are massive.

There are no turns in a realtime game (or rather the turns are really small and continuing with or without user input).

The engagement is entirely focussed on Combat. There is no real out of combat decision making. Doing that would not play to the strenghts of a MMO.

 

Bossfights are dragged out affairs. Lot's of HP and immunity to weak abilities (stun, slow, root), but not taunts. That makes both tanks and healers a nessesity (and often a core of the game mechanics). It is common knowledge that "DPS are in abundance. Tank and Healers are not." That is a absolute truth of every MMO with the trinity or an approximation to it.

 

How they engage classes in bossfights:

Tanks first job is to get the aggro, to draw damage away from teh DPS and healer. Second job is to survive the aggro (without making it too taxing for the healer). That involves turning AoE's away from the rest of the group, taking single target attacks that can not be avoided and dodging AoE that can be.

 

Healers first job is to keep the Tank alive, then the rest of the group.

They usually keep back, tracking the health of the team. They may also be fored to "cleanse" certain enemy ability. Usually some stuff that stacks.

 

DPS job is to deal damage so the fights actually end anytime soon. The worse the DPS, the longer the fight will take. Some fights might even be impossible due to abysmally low DPS, because the healer can not keep up that long.

Thier other equally important job is to not take too much damage.

Engagement is primarily keeping thier combinations steady/flowing while dodging AoE and random target attacks.

Another engagement can be additional enemies that have to be dropped fast. Usually the weak foes deal the most damage.

The final engagement can be what I call a "damage race". Where it is paramount that the DPS drop the enemy before the Tank and healer are overwhelmed under stacking debuffs that can not be avoided or cleansed.

 

Raid bossfights usually need 2+ Tanks. There are some approaches for that:

- physically seperating the group/forcing them to do actions in two distinct areas, either with enemies and seperate mechanics

- having adds spawn, that force one tank to deal with the boss and the other with the adds

- tank swap force. Usually some form of stacking debuff from the boss basic attacks, that makes the basic attacks/special attacks worse. The stacks are immune to cleanse abilities, but time out quickly if not re-applied. That way a quick taunt of the other tank will deal with it.

 

Having more Tanks and more players in general, also needs more healers. Usually each tank or each group of players has thier own dedicated healer, to keep things balanced.

However stuff like having to cleanse debuffs/dot's on anything but the tank is dropped, because it becomes too hard to manage/spot on such a large group.

 

DPS still have to deal damage. But more focus is put on defeating Adds and dodging AoE. Since there are more DPS then any other group, they are prone to be tagged by anything random targetting.

Sometimes minature "fetch item and bring to boss" mechanics are added. Those have to be done by a DPS in the know, as Tank and healer are bound at the boss.

[CptPatriot]

Well, in the case of the Celestial powerset, the powers tend to be damaging or healing depending on whether you want to harm or heal the target. In the case of Champions, you could build it as a multipower with a Blast and Healing slot.

[Christopher]

Well, in the case of the Celestial powerset, the powers tend to be damaging or healing depending on whether you want to harm or heal the target. In the case of Champions, you could build it as a multipower with a Blast and Healing slot.

It would be easier to just accept that healers of this kind are simply a artifact of MMO's. They make no sense outside the context of one.

But as luck would have it, every Healer class can be operated as a DPS class too. Healing is simply one of the 3 trees.

 

D&D is a bit of a exception here. It is designed to work somewhat like a MMO here. With 4E even being much clearer in similarities. If nothing else, D&D 4E was a experiment in making the MMO similarities much clearer.

[Greywind]

4e was an MMO that never got around to the computer.

[Christopher]

Characteristics:

Champions Online does feature a selection of Hero Characteristics as part of the Mechanics. The ones are:

Strenght, Dexterity, Constitution, Endurance, Recovery, Presence, Intelligence, Ego.

However they do not work remotely like thier original. Closest I can relate them is that they work like STR for HTH attack, but for whatever power you have to use. Some powers/archetypes are boosted by Ego. Some by Presence. Some Endurance or Recovery. No power is assigned to a specific Stat (afaik).

Instead you select 1 to be your "Primary Superstat" and two to be your secondaries. However the Stats do have effects besides boosting your powers - like STR and EGO giving CC resistances. So some stats work better with certain roles, like Str, Con and Rec fitting good for tank.

[Christopher]

4e was an MMO that never got around to the computer.

Actually it did get there. Neverwinter Online. It is clearly a 4E adaptation.

[Christopher]

Characteristics:

Champions Online does feature a selection of Hero Characteristics as part of the Mechanics. The ones are:

Strenght, Dexterity, Constitution, Endurance, Recovery, Presence, Intelligence, Ego.

However they do not work remotely like thier original. Closest I can relate them is that they work like STR for HTH attack, but for whatever power you have to use. Some powers/archetypes are boosted by Ego. Some by Presence. Some Endurance or Recovery. No power is assigned to a specific Stat (afaik).

Instead you select 1 to be your "Primary Superstat" and two to be your secondaries. However the Stats do have effects besides boosting your powers - like STR and EGO giving CC resistances. So some stats work better with certain roles, like Str, Con and Rec fitting good for tank.

Stat effects besides Superstats:

Strenght: Melee Damage, Melee Knockback Strenght, Knockback Resistance (ranged and melee); a logical stat for any Melee, but Bricks can use it too.

Dexterity: Critical Hit Chance, "Agression Stealth" (reduced aggro for dealing damage). Natural state for DPS classes, melee or ranged. Especially the ones that attack with high frequecy/damage over time abilities.

Constutition: Just more health. Equals Body 1:1

Intelligence: Cooldown or Activation Time Reduction, Power Cost reduction, ability to see to pierce stealth; Int does allow perception, wich does counter stealth. The rest is a artifact of MMO combat.

Ego: Ranged Damage, Resistance vs Holds, Ranged Knockback; A ranged fighter stat, inlcuding for Mentalists. But most roles could use some hold resistance.

Presence: Bonus Healing, Hold Strenght, CC resistance. A natural stat for healers, that also gives them CC resistance and CC ability

Recovery: Energy Strenght, Equilibrium, Maximum Energy. See energy mechanics.

Endurance: Maximum Energy (much stronger then recoery).

 

Energy Mechanics:

An interesting aspect of how any role/archetype plays is the energy mechanic.

Maximum energy decides how long you can use active abilities befor you ahve to return using energy builders.

Equilibrium in turn definse wich value the Energy will return out of combat (both regeneration and decay). So it directly translates to how many pauses the character can take between combats and how much time he has to spend "building up" energy when entering one after a longer peacetime. Classes with high recovery have much higher upfront Energy and recover quicker without having to use the energy builder on an enemy.

It is also noticeable that the energy pool is rather shallow. You have to switch much more often to energy builders/cost free attacks then in other MMO's. Especially with classes like the Sith Sorceror/Jedi Consular in SWTOR, the energy reserves are laughably small. When you compare the various Energy Systems for the SWTOR you can learn a lot about that part of class design:

Wheter the reserves are high or low.

Wheter the regeneration is fixed (same no mater how low you are) or dynamic (weaker the less power you have left).

Unit-size (some classes only track a bar of 12 ammo/fury/focus units. While others have a bar of 100-400 energy.

Mechanic Flipping: Sometimes the mechanic is seemingly flipped for more variance. For example the Bountyhunters "Heat" is basically the smuglers Energy bar, just reversed. You see "used up" energy rather then "remaining energy", but the regeneration and pooldepth are the same.

How usefull the "costs no energy" attacks are. And wheter they really only cost no/little energy (and thus are there to bridge gaps of intersting action) or are mandatory to keep fighting.

 

Casting Mechanics:

The options how to use abilities are actually quite a bit unusual among MMO's. While there are the usual combinations of Tap to activte, Activation time and Cooldown two special cases stand out: Maintain and having the option to charge or not to charge.

Maintain is primarily used for "Slotted Passive" abilities. Sometimes called a "Toggle". Something that gives passive effects, but also takes up a quickbar slot (those may be highly limited like ESO's 5, but here we got at least 14+). Or something that has positive effects but with a downside (Better tanking, worse DPS). Here it can be used to "channel until you run out of energy" abilities.

Charge or Tap: Some abilities allow you the choice to tap them, partially charge them or fully charge them before release. You usually can not move (or only slow) while charging, so you will be vulnerable to enemy attacks that need to be dodged. The closest equivalent I can think of is using a Haymaker: Added Effect and even energy efficiency, but at reduced defenses. The main difference is that you can open the fight with a Chargeup.

Mandatory Charge: This basically works like extra Time and/or Concentration, depending on if you can move while using it.

[IndianaJoe3]

Mechanic translation:

Taunting:

A Hero Brick would use Entangles and/or Grabs to keep the attention of the enemy. Thier defenses bring nothing if they can not force the enemy to attack them or otherwise make themself an issue. A MMO has to go for a codified system like Taunting.

 

I think that Presence Attacks would work well for keeping aggro.

[Christopher]

I think that Presence Attacks would work well for keeping aggro.

I am advising against trying to model taunting in Hero at all. It simply does not translate that well.

And trying to do so will at best be useless, at worst be detrimental and lock you into bad design decisions.

 

Every brick must already be able to keep his enemies attention or the defenses would not bring his team anything.

There are myriads of ways a Brick's Player in a P&P session at the same real/virtual table can do just that.

 

None of them would translate to a MMO Grouplevel bossfight.

MMO's are even carefull not to allow Taunt to be used in PvP. And if they do, at a much reduced rate (SWTOR gives a 60% damage penalty when not attacking the Taunter, duration: 6 seconds).

Ignore that taunt and aggro exist during translation. Asume they only mater for the MMO setting, because a computer (rather then a human) needs to be able to control the opposition.

[bubba smith]

Champions Online Wiki - Archetypes

http://www.championswiki.com/index.php?title=Archetypes 

thanks

[IndianaJoe3]

I am advising against trying to model taunting in Hero at all. It simply does not translate that well.

 

I agree that it shouldn't be mandatory, However, the ability of the team brick to get in the bad guy's face and suck up damage for a couple of rounds is very genre-appropriate.

[TheQuestionMan]

Oratory Skill Roll Complimentary to PRE Attack = Influence Target to Attack with Taunt Social Maneuver

 

Bonuses for Good Siloquies, Disadvantages/Complications

 

Modelling done

 

 

QM

[Christopher]

Going over the classes. I will focus on the Free to Play ones as I can say the most about them.

 

Tanks:

The Behemoth:

The Behemoth is your classical Melee/STR based Brick. Wich fits as he is a classical Melee Tank for MMO roles

 

The Glacier:

The 2nd Free tank, this one is a ranged Tank. Stat difference to the Behemoth is that he uses Ego instead of Str. Noticeable is that his abilitie include a lot of Debuff and CC abilities. As he is ranged KB does not faze him too much.

Without taunting I see issues with having Ranged Bricks being translated at all. It might be easier to do them as "tough" or "versatile" Blasters instead.

 

Other Tanks:
The Tank is a powerarmored ranged Tank. (The Blaster equivalent is the Automaton).

The Master is a what I call a "squishy" or "light" melee Tank. A melee Characters whose durability does not come from high defenses, but high self or incomming healing combined with a extralarge Health Pool, dodging and some extra active defense abilities. The SWTOR equivalent would be the Tank Assasin/Shadow.

The Mountain is another Ranged Brick. I think he has more knockdown and Knockback where the Glacier has Slow and Roots.

The Rockstar (I am not joking, that Archetype exists) is a Melee Tank with unsual Elements thrown in. Where the other two elements use one element/special effect, he uses Blunt, Sonic and Fire attacks. Unless you got a GM that allows you to derive Energy HTH-Attack bonus damage from STR, this class would be unfeasible.

 

Ranged:

These are basically all Blaster types. Main difference is the source of power (wielded Element) and derived secondary Effects (Fire causes DoT's, Ice Slows, etc.):

The Inferno is among the most durable of the Blasters (Primary superstat is not offensive, high Recovery), but in turn suffers in the burst damage department. A slow burn rather then a Explosion.

The Marksman is a AoE and utility focussed Blaster. Incredibly Squishy compared to the Inferno and weak against single targets, but more mobile.

The Soldier focussed more on verstatility the outright damage. Noticeable for a high amount of charge and maintained powers.

The Automaton is another somewhat tough Blaster. This class is semi-F2P.

The Tempest, Icycle, Squall and Scourge are Lightning, Frost, Weather/Wind and Dark Magic special effects for Ranged Blasters.

 

Melee:

I think "scapper" is a common term. These are high damage melee range Chracters. The Martial Artist comes to mind, but here the game really came into it's own:

The Unleashed is a dualwielding Fighter. He got his Block improoved considerably, while dealing almsot exclusively slashing damage.

The Blade is the one weapon equivalent to the Unleashed. Somewhat slower attacks, but much more effect.

The Disciple is a Psionic Brawler/Scrapper. All melee abilities have the Bonus damage moved off Str to Ego and he is the only one without STR as Superstat. There is something around those lines in one of the APG's.
The Predator is a "wild beast", with HP leechign attacks, and Poision/Bleeding DoT's.

The Devastator uses a single two handed weapon. That allows usual amount of Knocking the enemy around.

The Fist is a Martial Artist. His attacks are so fast, mostly they are rolled into a single Maintained or chargeup ability.

The Unchained is a Melee Gadgeteer. From all the Melees he has the most choices for attack powers during leveling up.

 

Support/Healer:

I noticed that the healer clases are more generalsied called "supporter". As such they can add buff/debuffs to thier priamry job of healing.

The classes are teh Radiant, Mind and Inventor. As said before it might be best to just run them like Blasters. If you want to play up ther adaptability there is also room for a VPP/wide Framework within thier special effects.

 

Hybrid:

The final kind of class is simply undecided. They are Ersatz Bricks or Supporters, mixed with Melee or Ranged DPS.

Specialist, Savage and Night Avenger are obvious expies of 2 Marvel and 2 DC characters.

 

Anywhere you think I am wrong?

Any class you might want to analyse in more detail?

[Greywind]

Actually it did get there. Neverwinter Online. It is clearly a 4E adaptation.

 

Not in the way that the 4e writers intended, apparently.

 

NWO is based off the CoH engine.

[Christopher]

Not in the way that the 4e writers intended, apparently.

 

NWO is based off the CoH engine.

The engine only maters for Graphics and Aesthethics, not gameplay mechancis.

Especially for a MMO, where the bulk of work has to be done on the server for Anti-Cheat reasons.

 

The mechanics behind the Ability useage, that is what I am talking about. We have abilities that can be used:

At Will, X/Encounter, X/till big rest. Wich goes as close to the original design as you can go in a MMO.