Second Normal Sight? Plus OCV as Constant Power

[whitekeys]

Hey folks,

 

I'm creating a character in a Steampunk setting who lost one of his eyes and has replaced it with a mechanthropic telescope gadget. I'm having trouble purchasing the desired Sense modifiers representing this telescopic eye's abilities without having them also affect his human eye. For example, Naked Advantage: MegaScale bought for Normal Sight seems to me to also apply to his human eye (and is way too expensive). The other way I tried, Telescopic +12 for Normal Sight, also applies to his human eye.

 

The solution I came up with is a limitation Only for Telescopic Eye. Does this work? What would the value of this limitation be?

 

In the example below, it doesn't quite seem right to have OAF (Telescopic Eye; -1) in addition to Only with Telescopic Eye (-1 [or whatever value we think works best]). He needs the telescopic eye in order to get the benefit, hence the Focus, but once he has it, it doesn't give his human eye any abilities, hence Only with Telescopic Eye. Losing the focus, or having it break/ripped out, renders the power useless on both accounts, so it shouldn't get the limitation for both, but doesn't leave him blind. I'm not sure. 

 

Furthermore, I wanted this eye to aid in targeting and provide an OCV bonus. I envision it taking Extra Time in order for the retrofuturistic old-fashioned technology to work, and functions exactly like the Set and Brace manoevres, but requiring a little more time and providing additional bonus. Not sure how this is supposed to work because OCV isn't really a power, it's a Persistent Characteristic. I'm assuming this limitation will turn it into a Constant Power, requiring Concentration (continued aiming, like Set). Is this true?

 

14 Mechanthropic Eye: (Total: 39 Active Cost, 14 Real Cost) +19 versus Range Modifier for Normal Sight (10 Active Points); OAF (Telescope implant; -1), Only with Telescopic Implant (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2) (Real Cost: 3) plus Partially Penetrative with Normal Sight (5 Active Points); OAF (Telescope implant; -1), Only with Telescopic Implant (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2) (Real Cost: 1) plus Nightvision (5 Active Points); OAF (Telescope implant; -1) (Real Cost: 2) plus Sight Group Flash Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); Only protects Telescope Implant (-1) (Real Cost: 4) plus +2 OCV (10 Active Points); OAF (Telescopic implant; -1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2) (Real Cost: 4) 0

 

any help would be greatly appreciated!

[Christopher]

Buy the Sense Modifers, "right eye only". Maybe you could even slap a Focus or material manifestation on top of it.

But honestly, how much does it mater that only one eye has those powers? He usually has both his eyes and will instinctively use the fitting/working one.

And if he looses the Focus, he looses the powers. What is the nessesary downside of having only one eye with those powers?

 

I would not consider it a OAF. Obvious I can understand, but accessible? Is it really as easily removed as a weapon from his hand? Seems a bit excessive.

[kukuli]

I see no reason that the implant would effect the human eye. It is basically a monocular implant.  You don't need it to affect your normal eye to use it, you can either close your meat eye or train to ignore it. You would lose the benifits, but would still have normal sight if you lost it. You might give the character a side effect: reduced depth perception -? to OCV  if lost but you don't get "only with implant" and focus. They are the same thing. By the way, the focus would be OIF unless it could be yanked out during combat.

 

You can add skill levels to a focus. That is the simplist way to add to your Ocv.

 

I am getting ready to go out, so I will leave it to someone with the book handy to help you figure out the costs.

[bigdamnhero]

Buy the Sense Modifers, "right eye only". Maybe you could even slap a Focus or material manifestation on top of it.

But honestly, how much does it mater that only one eye has those powers? He usually has both his eyes and will instinctively use the fitting/working one.

And if he looses the Focus, he looses the powers. What is the nessesary downside of having only one eye with those powers?

 

I would not consider it a OAF. Obvious I can understand, but accessible? Is it really as easily removed as a weapon from his hand? Seems a bit excessive.

I agree with all of this. If his normal eye had powers that his mechanical eye didn't, then the fact that a power/advantage only applied to the mechanical one might be be limiting. But since all the "good stuff" is on the same eye (ie the mechanical one), then I think this is a -0 Limitation, Mechanical Eye Only.

 

And yeah, unless someone can Disarm his eye, it should be OIF at best.

 

Edit: Thinking about it some more, the only way I can see this being a Limitation is if Jamming/Suppression fields against electronics are common enough that you're likely to have your mechanical eye shut down by means other than removing it. You'd have to ask your GM about that one - tho OTOH you might not want to give them ideas...

Edited September 4, 2016 by bigdamnhero

[whitekeys]

And yeah, unless someone can Disarm his eye, it should be OIF at best.

 

This is an excellent point, however, it is only partially true, as 6E1 377, under the heading Accessibility, adds a second paragraph stating "An ordinarily Inaccessible Focus can be defined as Accessible if it's easily damaged or destroyed, even if it can not be easily taken away from a character." This makes it up to each player exactly how they want to define their foci, with the knowledge that this Focus will most likely become the subject of attacks in an attempt to destroy it, rather than having it ripped out if it is Accessible rather than Inaccessible. I will inform my PC of this point.

 

 

You can add skill levels to a focus. That is the simplist way to add to your Ocv.

 

I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean take a Limited form of Skill Levels, applying the Focus limitation to them? If so, this is a good suggestion. However, the confusion was around the Extra Time limitation. I needed to know what effect Extra Time has on Persistent Characteristics. I believe the same problem would still exist if I took Combat Skill Level to improve OCV. The question is, how exactly do I gain the benefit, or lose the benefit, if I have to take Extra Time activating the skill?

 

A simpler way of looking at it might be to ask "How can I get more of a bonus while using the Set manoeuvre?". That process is how I envision my character attacking: taking a full phase to aim with a ranged attack, and being at 1/2 DCV. But I want more than a +1 OCV bonus. Plus a Focus limitation, as it is the Eye implant that provides the aiming assistance. 

[Christopher]

And yeah, unless someone can Disarm his eye, it should be OIF at best.

 

Edit: Thinking about it some more, the only way I can see this being a Limitation is if Jamming/Suppression fields against electronics are common enough that you're likely to have your mechanical eye shut down by means other than removing it. You'd have to ask your GM about that one - tho OTOH you might not want to give them ideas...

Always remember that taking a Limitation means you are asking the GM to make it part of the game. So do not take a limitation if you do not want it to come into play. And the GM can reduce the value to -0 if he feels he can not let it come into play.

 

Things that need some skill roll to remove are not even Inaccessible. If removing that eye is as hard as a normal eye (Surgery), then it would be outside the scope of even a focus.

 

This is an excellent point, however, it is only partially true, as 6E1 377, under the heading Accessibility, adds a second paragraph stating "An ordinarily Inaccessible Focus can be defined as Accessible if it's easily damaged or destroyed, even if it can not be easily taken away from a character." This makes it up to each player exactly how they want to define their foci, with the knowledge that this Focus will most likely become the subject of attacks in an attempt to destroy it, rather than having it ripped out if it is Accessible rather than Inaccessible. I will inform my PC of this point.

The hit location penalty for hitting a eye is somewhere around -12. I need to look it up again.

 

Edit:

Found it.

APG I 173 has expanded hit Locations.

Eye is:

-12 to hit, x5 STUN, x2 N STUN, x2.5 BODY. Paragraph mentioning that usually eyes are not covered by defenses.

 

A -12 to hit is not eactly "easily damaged". It is still -6 and 1/2 DCV when the target is asleep, that is how low it can go.

[whitekeys]

This is a second attempt, with Focus limitations updated for cost comparison purposes and with Telescopic utilized rather than MegaScale.

 

15 Mechanthropic Eye: (Total: 27 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +16 versus Range Modifier for Normal Sight (8 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 4) plus Partially Penetrative with Normal Sight (5 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2) plus Nightvision (5 Active Points); OIF (Telescope implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3) plus Sight Group Flash Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 6) 0

[Christopher]

 

This is a second attempt, with Focus limitations updated for cost comparison purposes and with Telescopic utilized rather than MegaScale.

 

15 Mechanthropic Eye: (Total: 27 Active Cost, 15 Real Cost) +16 versus Range Modifier for Normal Sight (8 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 4) plus Partially Penetrative with Normal Sight (5 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2) plus Nightvision (5 Active Points); OIF (Telescope implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3) plus Sight Group Flash Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 6) 0

 

That should work out finely.

 

However as I said before, the -12 to Hit penalty might be an issue with the destructability of the Focus. So expect teh GM to waive it for hitting this specific Focus (as you got the limitation value for a normally to hit Focus).

[whitekeys]

Always remember that taking a Limitation means you are asking the GM to make it part of the game. So do not take a limitation if you do not want it to come into play. And the GM can reduce the value to -0 if he feels he can not let it come into play.

I am the GM, lol. I will talk about it with my players.

 

 

The hit location penalty for hitting a eye is somewhere around -12. I need to look it up again.

On page 6E2 12, there are stats for PER Roll modifiers for size, and 1/64 of human size [approximately 1 inch] as -12. I expect the attack Roll modifiers to be comparable.

 

I suppose the question to ask is this: If the book states that there is a -2 OCV Penalty for attacking Foci (6E1 377), has it assumed a more or less universal size of Focus? Or is this penalty regardless of size? Otherwise, I would have expected it to mention size-related penalties or bonuses to OCV in order to hit an Accessible Focus. After all, that section goes on to detail Bulky and Immobile Foci, each of which can be defined as Accessible (even though no one is Grabbing them out of people's hands) and each of which we typically picture as being rather large, or at least larger than the typical hand-held Focus. However, I would certainly not rule that these penalties stack (-2 and -12). Whether the Focus has been defined as an eye or not, it seems to me that the size of the Focus is irrelevant. I would put other player's at a -2 OCV to hit the eye, with the rule that the effect of that attack is not a veritable 'headshot', but rather a disarming or destroying of the Focus.

 

If player's were at size-related penalties for hitting Foci, it would be too easy for players to define their Foci as being really small, like the difference between the blaster that J uses in Men In Black versus the big ones they use near the end of the movie, or the difference between a magic blade and easily fits inside the palm of your hand and a magic war hammer of epic proportions. You could argue that size factors into whether it is Accessible or Inaccessible, but from what it says about typically Accessible Foci being defined as Inaccessible (6E1 377), Steve Long seems to be leaving it completely up to the imagination of the characters. Which means I wouldn't apply size-related OCV modifiers to hitting Foci.

[whitekeys]

This is what I have so far for getting OCV as a Constant power ... (to be included with the compound power above)

 

3 +2 with a small group of attacks (6 Active Points); OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4)     Notes: These Combat Skill Levels apply to attack made with Rifles and similar two-handed guns.

 

 

 

... except it's missing the constant part.

 

Basically, once the character stops aiming, he loses the CSLs entirely, let alone needing to allocate them to something else. As long as he continues to aim, he gets the bonus CSL, just like the Set manoeuvre. On 6E1 128, it details Duration of Powers and changing Persistent Powers into Constant powers. It lists the following Limitations that can change Persistent Powers into Constant ones: Requires a Roll, Costs Endurance, Nonpersistent, Concentration, Gestures, and Incantations. Applying Extra Time to a Persistent power does not change it into a constant power, so still trying to figure that out.

 

Requires a Roll: I don't want to have to Roll for it.

Costs Endurance: I usually don't do the Endurance thing for my Heroic campaigns to keep it simple and fast for my players. This would be an unfair choice.

Concentration: Leaves the character at 1/2 DCV, but this would not stack with the DCV penalty for Set, which seems like an unfair advantage, since I will be doing that most of the time.

Gestures: Not sure what the gestures would be, other than holding the gun with both hands, which renders this, along with Gestures throughout, a -1 Limitation which seems too much. It doesn't make sense anyway.

Incantations: Seems to work okay, for -1/2. But I don't envision the character actually saying anything during his aiming.

Nonpersistent: Seems to be the best and simplest, but the Nonpersistent aspect only makes it "shut-off" if Stunned or Knocked Out. Perhaps I should take it one more step and make it Instant (-1/2), which would require the character to spend a Full-Phase action re-aiming after each use, only getting a shot in every second phase. That seems worth -3/4.

 

Any thoughts?

 

Otherwise, CSLs with Limitations are ruled to be only applicable to OCV, and not DCV or Damage, which is what I am buying these for, so this power will not breach any of those rules. Furthermore, I read under the Extra Time Limitation (6E1 374) that characters can take other actions while activating powers that take longer than the standard Zero-Phase, which is what I want (he will, therefore, be able to Set at the same time).  

[whitekeys]

Final version:

 

20 Mechanthropic Eye: (Total: 39 Active Cost, 20 Real Cost) +16 versus Range Modifier for Normal Sight (8 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 4) plus Partially Penetrative with Normal Sight (5 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2) plus Nightvision (5 Active Points); OIF (Telescope implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 3) plus Sight Group Flash Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 6) plus +4 with a small group of attacks (12 Active Points); OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2), Instant (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4), Nonpersistent (-1/4) (Real Cost: 5) 0

[bigdamnhero]

If the book states that there is a -2 OCV Penalty for attacking Foci (6E1 377), has it assumed a more or less universal size of Focus? Or is this penalty regardless of size? Otherwise, I would have expected it to mention size-related penalties or bonuses to OCV in order to hit an Accessible Focus.

I think the -2 penalty assumes a standard superhero gadget-sized Focus. Personally I always thought it was ridiculously low given the size of the item, but given how often people get such items shot out their hands in movies/shows, it's arguably genre-balanced. I think you could go either way depending on how you want it to work in game: if you want the eye to be easy to hit/damage, then give it a -2 (or thereabouts) and call it Accessible; if you want it to be difficult to hit/damage then give it a larger penalty more appropriate to its size and call it Inaccessible. Just don't give it a -12 and call it Accessible, cuz it ain't.

 

Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate, -1/4)

...

Basically, once the character stops aiming, he loses the CSLs entirely, let alone needing to allocate them to something else. As long as he continues to aim, he gets the bonus CSL, just like the Set manoeuvre. 

Technically these aren't the same thing. Per RAW, Full Phase Only to Activate means it takes a Phase to "power up" the first time it's used but then each subsequent use is a normal action. It sounds like what you really want is a Conditional Limitation Only While Setting?

 

On 6E1 128, it details Duration of Powers and changing Persistent Powers into Constant powers. .  

Skills bought with Limitations are Constant by default, not Persistent. 6e1 p283.

[whitekeys]

I think the -2 penalty assumes a standard superhero gadget-sized Focus. Personally I always thought it was ridiculously low given the size of the item, but given how often people get such items shot out their hands in movies/shows, it's arguably genre-balanced. I think you could go either way depending on how you want it to work in game: if you want the eye to be easy to hit/damage, then give it a -2 (or thereabouts) and call it Accessible; if you want it to be difficult to hit/damage then give it a larger penalty more appropriate to its size and call it Inaccessible. Just don't give it a -12 and call it Accessible, cuz it ain't.

 

Technically these aren't the same thing. Per RAW, Full Phase Only to Activate means it takes a Phase to "power up" the first time it's used but then each subsequent use is a normal action. It sounds like what you really want is a Conditional Limitation Only While Setting?

 

Skills bought with Limitations are Constant by default, not Persistent. 6e1 p283.

I agree with the first paragraph.

 

Your second paragraph hits on exactly what my difficulty with this power has been. Only While Setting as an appeal to me. Value? Thanks for suggesting it!

 

And the third, I have to quibble about whether this is a skill or not. I hadn't read 6E1 283, actually, so thanks for pointing it out to me, but the build I produced in an earlier post, and the general idea I have in mind, is not skill-based. It an attack bonus, so either OCV or a CSL. However, Martial Maneuvers are given in the text example... so perhaps CSLs are governed by this rule as well. Perhaps a question for Steve?

[eepjr24]

And the third, I have to quibble about whether this is a skill or not. I hadn't read 6E1 283, actually, so thanks for pointing it out to me, but the build I produced in an earlier post, and the general idea I have in mind, is not skill-based. It an attack bonus, so either OCV or a CSL. However, Martial Maneuvers are given in the text example... so perhaps CSLs are governed by this rule as well. Perhaps a question for Steve?

CSL is a skill. It appears in the Skill section and even has it in the name "Combat Skill Level". =) Edit: PSL are also skills (range modifiers).

 

OCV is a characteristic, they are persistent.

 

- E

[Lucius]

A Combat Skill Level can apply to a maneuver. In this case, the maneuver is "Set."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Skill Levels with Palindromedary Mounted Weapons

[whitekeys]

Right-o. Since the CSl were Constant to begin with, I had to take the Nonpersistent Limitation off. That didn't change much. Making it Instant worked okay...but it was still wishy-washy on how you would do a Full-Phase Set and a Full-Phase Power in the same phase. 

 

So, I've gone with bigdamnhero's suggestion of Only While Setting. This nullify's the use of Extra Time, since that special effect is already present with Set and is a Full-Phase, and we want to power to work while in that stance, not take extra-time on top of that. I put the value at -1.

 

17 Mechanthropic Eye: (Total: 34 Active Cost, 17 Real Cost) +16 versus Range Modifier for Normal Sight (8 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 4) plus Partially Penetrative with Normal Sight (5 Active Points); Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 2) plus Sight Group Flash Defense (9 points) (9 Active Points); OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 6) plus +4 with a small group of attacks (12 Active Points); Only While Setting (-1), OIF (Telescopic implant; -1/2) (Real Cost: 5) 0

 

Thanks for all your help everyone!