HELP! Is this power/maneuver combo OP (over powered)

[Hyper-Man]

I strongly recommend reading this thread:
http://www.herogames.com/forums/topic/93440-the-state-of-the-rules/?p=2511170

 

HM

[Armitage]

That's how to calculate damage classes, not "advantages add directly to existing powers and abilities." 

 

 

Ah, I misread the question.  I thought it was the prorating that was the issue.  Limited free application of Advantages on STR to Hand-to-Hand Attack dice does appear to be one of the things that was left out in the transition from 6E to CC.

 

Martial Maneuvers on p. 154 does say that they add Damage Classes, not dice, so that would prorate when adding Damage Classes to Advantaged STR.  There's nothing under Hand-To-Hand Attack.

[bigdamnhero]

What exactly are you trying to do?  Please describe the action/power you're trying to simulate.

"KILL THEM! KILL THEM AAAAAAALLLLL!!!" 

 

Or so I assume, anyway.

 

 

I almost never allow Rapid Autofire, and the handful of times I have allowed it, I have regretted doing so. Totally overpowered, especially for the cost. But that's me, not RAW.

 

Are you using AP/DC caps/guidelines in your campaign? If so, then you definitely want to look at the total DC of the attack including all Modifiers, Advantage, Maneuvers, etc, rather than looking at each of them individually. (If not, this might be a good time to start...)

 

Other than that the combo looks legal AFAICT, assuming all the right points were paid and all the modifiers got calculated. But I would definitely count those points and modifiers correctly to make sure I hadn't missed something. If Cantriped's assumptions are all correct, this probably cost the character well over 100 points, so it should be pretty powerful.

[Balabanto]

Ah, I misread the question.  I thought it was the prorating that was the issue.  Limited free application of Advantages on STR to Hand-to-Hand Attack dice does appear to be one of the things that was left out in the transition from 6E to CC.

 

Martial Maneuvers on p. 154 does say that they add Damage Classes, not dice, so that would prorate when adding Damage Classes to Advantaged STR.  There's nothing under Hand-To-Hand Attack.

 

It would not. Martial Arts is a skill. 

[MrKinister]

Hmm... I suppose it is overpowered if you have misgivings about it. I would recommend that you review this power in comparison with everyone else's and check with your campaign power guidelines.

 

I would say this is a "legal power", just as 40D6 RKA is a "legal power". Would I allow it in my game? Heck no.

 

In my games I consider 40 to 60 Active Points the running normal/average for attacks. You can go above it, but for exceptional reasons and good play.

 

I was checking out the numbers on this: 10D6 (50 Active points), Armor Piercing + Autofire, 3 shots (+25 Active Points) for a total of 75 Active Points. This would definitely make it into the upper range of my games. Not to mention all the investment in the maneuvers and skills for this happen.

 

But crunching numbers: assuming OCV 10 vs DCV 10 (just to make it even) and Two Weapon Fighting would hit with the first shot on an 11, with the second on a 9, and with the third on a 7. Good odds, but hitting that 7 is infrequent. Let's assume the enemy knows what's coming and decides to abort to dodge: first hit on a 8, second hit in a 6, and third hit on a 4. Chances are he may not hit at all. And if the enemy is a trained fighter (using martial dodge): first hit on a 6, second on a 4, and the third hit on a 3. Extremely unlikely.

 

You did mention he had (at least) three skill levels with this attack, not to mention martial maneuver bonuses (passing strike +1). That will definitely shift the numbers in his favor. But notice the rarity of the effective strikes. At even combat values he will likely hit with one or two, three is he's lucky. Then again, he could just as easily miss with both. However, 10D6 AP is probably going to hurt, no matter what.

 

Not to mention that he'll be at 1/2 DCV for the rest of his phase, and into his next phase.That's pretty vulnerable. I suspect that in practical terms, he will hit a few times, but the vulnerability will cost him the fight. Ranged counter attacks will hit him easily, and if he demonstrates the attack in battle against several enemies, he will seen a "significant threat". I would certainly have smart opponents take the chance to hit him when his DCV is down. Not to mention he can probably be flashed, entangled, tripped, etc, etc.

 

And someone else here also mentioned that the END cost will be astronomical. I doubt he could attack more than twice before succumbing to exhaustion. At 7 END a single punch, 21 per full sequence, twice, that is 42 END per complete attack. Maybe he can do that once, twice if he's got lots of END. So, that in itself may balance the power. 

 

But in the end it is your choice to allow it. Since you are actually asking for help because you fear it may be overpowered, I would say if you don't like it, don't allow it.

 

If all else fails, here's a quote from 6E2, page 73: "Unless the GM permits it, characters cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed HTH Combat attacks, innate powers like Blast, and so on. As the Skill’s name indicates, it’s generally intended for use with weapons, not personal powers or abilities."

 

And from 6E1, page 327, Autofire: "Similarly, if the GM believes a Power with Autofire would be extremely useful or likely to unbalance the game at its normal cost, he may increase the cost by +1 (or more)."

 

Let us know how it goes. =)

[Balabanto]

Hmm... I suppose it is overpowered if you have misgivings about it. I would recommend that you review this power in comparison with everyone else's and check with your campaign power guidelines.

 

I would say this is a "legal power", just as 40D6 RKA is a "legal power". Would I allow it in my game? Heck no.

 

In my games I consider 40 to 60 Active Points the running normal/average for attacks. You can go above it, but for exceptional reasons and good play.

 

I was checking out the numbers on this: 10D6 (50 Active points), Armor Piercing + Autofire, 3 shots (+25 Active Points) for a total of 75 Active Points. This would definitely make it into the upper range of my games. Not to mention all the investment in the maneuvers and skills for this happen.

 

But crunching numbers: assuming OCV 10 vs DCV 10 (just to make it even) and Two Weapon Fighting would hit with the first shot on an 11, with the second on a 9, and with the third on a 7. Good odds, but hitting that 7 is infrequent. Let's assume the enemy knows what's coming and decides to abort to dodge: first hit on a 8, second hit in a 6, and third hit on a 4. Chances are he may not hit at all. And if the enemy is a trained fighter (using martial dodge): first hit on a 6, second on a 4, and the third hit on a 3. Extremely unlikely.

 

You did mention he had (at least) three skill levels with this attack, not to mention martial maneuver bonuses (passing strike +1). That will definitely shift the numbers in his favor. But notice the rarity of the effective strikes. At even combat values he will likely hit with one or two, three is he's lucky. Then again, he could just as easily miss with both. However, 10D6 AP is probably going to hurt, no matter what.

 

Not to mention that he'll be at 1/2 DCV for the rest of his phase, and into his next phase.That's pretty vulnerable. I suspect that in practical terms, he will hit a few times, but the vulnerability will cost him the fight. Ranged counter attacks will hit him easily, and if he demonstrates the attack in battle against several enemies, he will seen a "significant threat". I would certainly have smart opponents take the chance to hit him when his DCV is down. Not to mention he can probably be flashed, entangled, tripped, etc, etc.

 

And someone else here also mentioned that the END cost will be astronomical. I doubt he could attack more than twice before succumbing to exhaustion. At 7 END a single punch, 21 per full sequence, twice, that is 42 END per complete attack. Maybe he can do that once, twice if he's got lots of END. So, that in itself may balance the power. 

 

But in the end it is your choice to allow it. Since you are actually asking for help because you fear it may be overpowered, I would say if you don't like it, don't allow it.

 

If all else fails, here's a quote from 6E2, page 73: "Unless the GM permits it, characters cannot use Two-Weapon Fighting with unarmed HTH Combat attacks, innate powers like Blast, and so on. As the Skill’s name indicates, it’s generally intended for use with weapons, not personal powers or abilities."

 

And from 6E1, page 327, Autofire: "Similarly, if the GM believes a Power with Autofire would be extremely useful or likely to unbalance the game at its normal cost, he may increase the cost by +1 (or more)."

 

Let us know how it goes. =)

It should be noted that the cost to reduce the END also doubles. 

[Heroic Halfwit]

Mr. Kinister:

 

Excellent analysis, but missing a few key points.  1.  It's a passing strike so the character could very well be behind cover or out of line of sight to help mitigate the 1/2 DCV penalty.  2.  He could still abort to  (martial) dodge which puts him back at (8)10 DCV.  3.  It seems this character breaks at least 2 rules in your campaign setting both AP for attacks and CV.  4.  The majority of targets in a campaign with a 40-60 AP limit are going to be <9 CV and probably not have martial dodge, which makes the attack over 25% more effective than in the "even" case.  Throw in 3 CSLs with it and it just gets nasty.

 

If everyone has 20pd or more then perhaps it's not that big a problem for the reasons you mentioned, if not then I'll suggest that the attack is overpowered as described.

[GoldenAge]

Well, at least for the time being [in our campaign], we have decided to eliminate Rapid Autofire and replace it with SKIPOVER SPRAYFIRE as described in HERO SYSTEM 6th Edition - Volume 1, page 66. (Rapid Attack Skill, 6E1 87 remains unchanged.)

We encountered a similar problem as I originally posted when an armored character with an AoE Line/Autofire + Rapid Autofire unleashed 16 successful 10d6 attacks in 1 action.