Movement as a zero phase action?

[Crusher Bob]

I'm curious what the problem was. Some of the gamers I play with are far easier to convince to play games like Mordheim, Warhammer, etc., so everyone moving every turn is something I'm fairly used to.

 

The one catch I can see is in maneuvers that require speed, but I think a lot of the problem is in the distinction between combat and non-combat speed. That distinction seems problematic to me as well. I'm pretty sure most people running through a war zone are not running at half speed, especially people driving a car, and if it's simulating loss of speed to turning, there's already a mechanic for that.

 

That said, it's quite possible I'm missing details in why it might be problematic.

 

One problem I can see is administrative: it forces 'everyone' to do stuff every segment of the turn, as opposed to every SPD segments.  This contributes all sorts of things with slow the turn resolution down even further.

 

It may also be possible, with 'careful arrangement' to make yourself unattackable simply by how your movement spaces out.  If we start side by side at phase 1, and I'm next to you when it comes time for me to hit you, I can hit you.  but if our phase by phase movement happens to have us futher apart than your movement this phase allow you to move, then you can't hit me.  This makes engaging someone in hand to hand if you don't have stretching potentially very difficult.  It's like Zeno's paradox, but for fists.

[TheDarkness]

One problem I can see is administrative: it forces 'everyone' to do stuff every segment of the turn, as opposed to every SPD segments.  This contributes all sorts of things with slow the turn resolution down even further.

 

It may also be possible, with 'careful arrangement' to make yourself unattackable simply by how your movement spaces out.  If we start side by side at phase 1, and I'm next to you when it comes time for me to hit you, I can hit you.  but if our phase by phase movement happens to have us futher apart than your movement this phase allow you to move, then you can't hit me.  This makes engaging someone in hand to hand if you don't have stretching potentially very difficult.  It's like Zeno's paradox, but for fists.

On the first part, all it allows is movement. Really nothing else, and, as I got at before, I'm well accustomed to games where everyone,is moving every turn. I can accept that very possibly it will slow the turn resolution down, I just think between six players they can quickly decide this and make it routine enough to cut down on that. However, the proof is in the pudding, I know.

 

On the second part, assuming every confrontation is two people with the exact same movement and absolutely no environmental factors, yes, and neither of them have any ranged attacks, yes. No walls, no terrain, no obstacles whatsoever. But then, it would be the same situation under the normal rules between them if they had the same speed and movement. But as soon as there are more people involved, the chances of actually pulling that off become less and less, and, as I was referencing an idea where this movement every segment was simply one's starting, un-bought movement, every player who has bought movement would still be able to use that movement during the segments they have actions and catch up just as easily as if they all had never moved.

 

The Zeno's paradox could still occur as is if the two are the right distance. In fact, it should be able to occur, if someone is trying to catch up to a person who moves at the same rate the same number of times as them.

 

I'm expecting that the issue Bigdamnhero encountered had more to do with the turn resolution side of things.

[Hugh Neilson]

1) The "Trigger" has to be "easily verifiable" with commonly possessed senses. For example, "Snapping your Fingers" or "Clicking your Heels" are legal Triggers, but "Thinking About Moving" is not. As such, you cannot define the Trigger as simply "Taking a Zero Phase Action", you have to define what that Zero Phase Action is.

The +1/2 version of the advantage would permit the Trigger to be changed each time it is set. Of course, the price goes up. The +1/2 advantage is in the original post now.

 

2) The fact that the Trigger Expires should not be considered to be worth any "Less Advantage" value on this power construct, because it doesn't cost you anything to set the trigger. However there is no reason to have to set a different trigger every time either; it could always just be "Clicking Your Heels" or "Snapping your Fingers", which would mean the actual advantage value remains the same.

To add to the issue of reducing the advantage, the rules say the GM may reduce the Advantage’s value, so it is clear this is not viewed as an automatic reduction. I definitely agree that the expiration could make little difference in the context of this ability, but see below.

 

3) Zero Phase actions can only be performed at the beginning of your phase, or after a half phase action, they cannot ever be performed after an Attack. Adding or Removing Velocity are special Zero Phases actions which can each only be performed once per phase, so regardless of how you build the Trigger modifier you can still only activate the movement power once per phase; since you cannot deactivate the movement power until you reach 0 velocity, and you can't accelerate or decelerate twice in the same phase.

I’m dicy on this point. Triggered Teleport is an accepted construct.

 

On the timing, as the character needs a 0 phase action to use the Trigger, having it expire at the end of his phase has little impact. He can re-set it at the start of his next phase, which is the next time he has a zero phase action anyway. To work as the poster envisions it, he needs a Trigger that takes no time so he can use it outside his own phases.

 

I would be interested in how this power construct meets the requirement that “Characters can usually spot a power with a Trigger with a PER Roll, unless the power has the Advantage Invisible Power Effects.” The reduced advantage for the time limit also notes that “in this case whether the duration has passed should be obvious to an observer”.

 

The writeup of Trigger is pretty clearly implying it is intended for an attack power. I do not believe you can decide, after setting the Trigger for a 12d6 Blast, that it will only be an 8d6 Blast. This would imply the distance of movement must be selected when the Trigger is set.

 

The bare movement is certainly something that can be aborted to. It's pretty much a dive for cover that doesn't require a dex roll and doesn't have any other disadvantages. But, can you abort to block or dodge, use a zero phase action to set your trigger, then use the movement and the do the aborted action? In theory, we want to speedster to be able to suddenly be standing <over there> blocking an attack for someone else, but without the ability to move, that's not possible.

 

As for 'dodging' incoming attacks, I'd assume that people who were shooting at you can still shoot at you if you were still a valid target, and people who were coming over there to hit you can then (semi retroactively) spend as much movement as they had available and wanted to use (assuming they had already taken a half phase move, or had a half phase otherwise available) to potentially chase you down and hit you anyway. Of course, if you have 'enough' triggered movement, you could be quite far away.

Of course, an equally fast speedster doing constant move-bys seems to be just as bad.

No.

 

A character cannot normally Abort to a movement Action, such as to run, fly, or Teleport out of danger’s way. Dive For Cover and decelerating or turning are exceptions to this — although they do involve some movement, characters can Abort to them. At the GM’s option, characters may be allowed to Abort to other forms of movement in appropriate circumstances.

As I recall, but am too lazy to look up, the ruling for Flying Dodge was that you can abort to get the Dodge bonus, but would not move anywhere. I would allow an Abort to the Triggered Movement to Dive for Cover, but since it would be after the character’s phase, and the trigger expired, the Abort would allow him zero phase actions to set and activate the trigger, at the cost of having Aborted his next phase. Otherwise, he lacks the required 0 phase action.

 

By the way, those 12 meters of running now cost 2 END to trigger instead of 1 END to use. As well, the 2 END is spent when you set the trigger, so you spend it even if you do not use the Trigger.

 

OK. Objections.

 

You can't have 'trigger only lasts a phase' as the thing is a zero phase activation you have to use that phase, so no actual disadvantage.

Compared to “lasts to the start of my next phase”, there is a disadvantage.

 

You can take as many zero phase actions as you like, so you actually only need to buy back 1m of movement and you can move as far as you like.

Some zero phases are restricted to once a phase. I would include this one.

 

My objection was not 'you can not do this with the system', it was 'This is why we have GMs': it is something you CAN do with Hero, it is not something you SHOULD do. It is one of those system hacks that would be so useful that, if it were allowed, everyone would have it, and it is clearly circumventing the rules on movement.

This is key – lots of things are book-legal but not in-game legal.

 

I will suggest that a lot of the abuse comes from the “movement multipower/sellback”. This can be resolved by not allowing the sellback of base movement. Now the MP costs 22 points with no -14 for the sellback. The MP movement would add to base movement, but if you want your base Movement to Trigger with the MP, you need to pay for the same +1/2 advantage on the base movement as well.

[Crusher Bob]

It's a zero phase action to set the trigger, and you can only take zero phase actions when you can act this segment (from: having your SPD come up, holding an action, aborting to act in this phase).  So to 'create' the trigger that allows the triggered movement, you have to have an action.  That's why I feel that the trigger only lasting 1 segment is a disadvantage.  Otherwise, you can create the trigger out of combat, and then use them.  For example, if you have multiple types of movement in your multipower (so all your types of movement are non-actions), then you could create triggers for all of them.  And then set them off in combat.  The limitation is there to prevent things like that.   Since you could only set a trigger for your movement with points from your MP reserve allocated to the power, and assuming you don't have enough reserve to allocate points to several types of movement, then you will only ever be able to trigger one sort of movement per phase you get to act.

 

You also can't use this power construct to trigger movement when you are otherwise unable to act, because 1. creating the trigger is a zero phase action, and you have to 'have' an action available to take zero phase actions 2. your triggers don't last past a single phase, so you can't leave a trigger for movement 'hanging'.

 

For example, with a triggered movement power that doesn't have this limiter, you could set the trigger to 'whenever someone attacks me' and then, in the next phase, when someone attacks you, you get the triggered movement.

 

With this power construct, you can't do that, because your trigger won't persist past the segment you acted in.  If you want to move in response to something, you'd have to abort to get an action, set up a trigger, and then fire it off.

 

---------

 

The 'new' construct changes setting off the trigger as a non-action, since you can't take 0 phase actions after a turn ending action (like attacking or taking a recovery) but you can still take non-actions.

 

This ups the cost of the trigger to (+3/4):

 

Trigger:
Trigger condition is set when trigger is created (+1/2)
Activating Trigger is non-action (+1/4)
Setting trigger is a 0 phase action (+1/4)
Trigger expires: trigger only lasts a single phase (or is that segment?) (-1/4 less)
Total (+3/4)

 

---------

 

Sigh have looked up flying dodge.  Originally, was only looking at various rulings on triggered movement.

 

1. Flying dodge only lets you move up to your whole movement.  So, for example, if you had taken a half phase move, then used flying dodge, it would only give you another half-move.  However, when you abort to flying dodge, you get your full movement, because there is no way to also take a half move at the same time.

 

2. flying dodge auto defeats:

2a: AOE attacks that you have enough movement to get out of the AOE from (no DEX roll, being prone, etc that go with diving for cover abort action)

2b: haymakers (because moving out of the target hex means the haymaker fails)

2c: hand to hand attacks ... ... ... apparently there is no opportunity to 'chase' the flying dodge guy, since the hth attack ended your phase.  So enough meters of flying dodge to escape your reach means you can't hit them...

 

Of course, martial dodge means that you'd normally miss the opponent anyway, but if you are at 1/2 DCV or 0 DCV for some reason and can still manage an abort to flying dodge, you can no sell a non-stretching hth attack automatically...

 

...

 

Sigh, this pretty much means that triggered movement would have to, I dunno, also give you END, or make the enemies heads explode or something to beat the cheesy goodness that is the 5 point flying dodge.

 

 

 

[bigdamnhero]

I'm curious what the problem was.

It was just incredibly, unbearably tedious. "OK, Phase 1: everyone move 1 hex. Phase 2, everyone move another hex, oh wait you get to move 2 hexes you speed demon you. OK, Phase 3: someone gets to actually do something, yay! Phase 4: everyone else gets to do something, yay! Phase 5, everyone move 1 hex..." Yawn. And while we thought it would help everyone stay in-game because you always had an action coming up, in practice it felt more like being trapped at the table. You couldn't even go to the bathroom or go grab a coke because I need you to move your 1 goddamn hex. And no one felt like it added anything. Worst. House rule. Ever. (And I freely admit we've tried some bad ones.)

 

The one catch I can see is in maneuvers that require speed, but I think a lot of the problem is in the distinction between combat and non-combat speed.

That part was actually easy: we just had to define everything as based on Movement per Turn rather than per Phase.

[bigdamnhero]

To make a workable 'low velocity' alternative to speedsters so there is a 'strike based' power construct that acts something like a high velocity speedster with a moveby.  A 40m base movement speedster can start 20m away from you, do a 40m moveby, and end 20m away from you.  A low velocty trigger movement speedster with 24 + 12 movement can start 12m away from you, hit you, then trigger move 12m away.

If that's all you want, it would be much easier to just buy a Triggered Strike, with the Trigger set as "in between two 1/2 Moves" or whatever. Or heck, just invent a custom Martial Maneuver built as a Move By that doesn't add velocity so in practice it's just a Strike you can use while moving. Either alternative is trivially easier and doesn't require you to reinvent/overcomplicate the way movement powers work for all characters.

 

For example, aborting to move in front of someone to block an attack is something we can 'expect' speedsters to be able to do.

Since that's a defensive action, they can already Abort to it - I've never once seen a Champions GM rule otherwise.

 

And you still haven't answered the question of what you specifically object to (other than selling off base movement).  What abilities does this power construct give the speedster that you don't like? (move -> strike -> move (and the related cases (range games, corner peek shoot, etc)?, abort -> dodge + move?, abort -> block + move?, maybe move + recovery?

You're essentially using the Trigger rules to buy yourself extra time (ie extra Phases). Which is one thing when you're talking about attacks and the like that are effectively instantaneous, or defensive powers that just stay on. But moving from point A to point B takes actual time, and you're using Trigger rules to get around that. Honestly, it may be single the most cheesy thing I've seen on these boards this year, and it seems completely rules-munchkinism-because-I-can driven rather than coming from a desire for any particular effect.

[bigdamnhero]

I’m dicy on this point. Triggered Teleport is an accepted construct.

Sure, because Teleport is already a magical/superpower ability that most character don't have by default, and that is instantaneous and doesn't cross intervening space (unless bought that way of course). Running, Swimming & Leaping are all real-life things that real-life people have and that actually take actual time and actually cross intervening space. The way the rules model that as phased movement is imperfect but "close enough for gaming purposes." Triggered Movement exploits those imperfections to effectively turn Running into Teleport, Must Cross Intervening Space, and reinvents the entire movement system just to give a dubious advantage to a speedster, one which is already easily built within the existing rules. Have fun if you want, but I'll pass.

[Crusher Bob]

Since that's a defensive action, they can already Abort to it - I've never once seen a Champions GM rule otherwise.

 

 

No, you can't because without some special ability, which you have to pay points for, you can't abort to both move and block.  Unlike many other games, there are no special powers granted by being speedster guy.  And normal people can't suddenly be 10 meters away, catching the bullet that was about to hit that baby.  If speedster guy want's to be able to do that, he has to come up with a power construct that let's him do that and pay points for it.

[Crusher Bob]

Sure, because Teleport is already a magical/superpower ability that most character don't have by default, and that is instantaneous and doesn't cross intervening space (unless bought that way of course). Running, Swimming & Leaping are all real-life things that real-life people have and that actually take actual time and actually cross intervening space. The way the rules model that as phased movement is imperfect but "close enough for gaming purposes." Triggered Movement exploits those imperfections to effectively turn Running into Teleport, Must Cross Intervening Space, and reinvents the entire movement system just to give a dubious advantage to a speedster, one which is already easily built within the existing rules. Have fun if you want, but I'll pass.

 

Speedster guy can move faster bullets while running.  So unless we are splitting the turn into many smaller segments, speedster guy can run anywhere on the batlefield 'instantly'.  It's like you are saying that Superman's eyebeams have to have charges 'because there have to be a limited number of bullets in a guns magazine' and supermans eye beams and guns are both build with RKA, so the eyebeams have to have charges.  'Running' in Champions is just a defined movement construct.  A slug has 'running' even though it doesn't have any legs. 

[bigdamnhero]

No, you can't because without some special ability, which you have to pay points for, you can't abort to both move and block.

Sure you can: 1/2 Phase to Move and 1/2 Phase to Block. See also Interposing, 6e2 p128. Or heck, if you really think it's an issue it would be trivially simple to create a "Block By" Maneuver. Certainly cheaper than buying Triggered movement.

 

Speedster guy can move faster bullets while running.  So unless we are splitting the turn into many smaller segments, speedster guy can run anywhere on the batlefield 'instantly'.  It's like you are saying that Superman's eyebeams have to have charges 'because there have to be a limited number of bullets in a guns magazine' and supermans eye beams and guns are both build with RKA, so the eyebeams have to have charges.  'Running' in Champions is just a defined movement construct.  A slug has 'running' even though it doesn't have any legs. 

If you want your speedster guy to be able to get anywhere instantly, then you should be buying Teleport, Must Cross Intervening Space; that's exactly what that power build is for.

 

It seems to me like you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist, and in the process massively over complicating the way movement works for all characters. Sorry.

[TheDarkness]

It was just incredibly, unbearably tedious. "OK, Phase 1: everyone move 1 hex. Phase 2, everyone move another hex, oh wait you get to move 2 hexes you speed demon you. OK, Phase 3: someone gets to actually do something, yay! Phase 4: everyone else gets to do something, yay! Phase 5, everyone move 1 hex..." Yawn. And while we thought it would help everyone stay in-game because you always had an action coming up, in practice it felt more like being trapped at the table. You couldn't even go to the bathroom or go grab a coke because I need you to move your 1 goddamn hex. And no one felt like it added anything. Worst. House rule. Ever. (And I freely admit we've tried some bad ones.)

 

That part was actually easy: we just had to define everything as based on Movement per Turn rather than per Phase.

Ah, I see what you mean.

 

Thanks for the reply!

 

I suppose if I still want to try it, I might work in bulk, as it were. Instead of doing segment by segment, work blocks of segments in which no one has an action into one move that would be the combined inches of the, let's say three, segments in which no one has their phase. See if that helps.

 

That, or require players to wear depends.

[Crusher Bob]

Sure you can: 1/2 Phase to Move and 1/2 Phase to Block. See also Interposing, 6e2 p128. Or heck, if you really think it's an issue it would be trivially simple to create a "Block By" Maneuver. Certainly cheaper than buying Triggered movement.

 

So you just said that a 'normal guy' can 'instantly' be 'over there', blocking that attack, because you can abort to move + block?  It's no different that speedster guy being instantly 'over there', which is what you are complaining about?!

 

'Running' and 'teleport' are specific rules constructs.  Taking 'time' to get where they are going is included in neither rules construct.  The difference between 'running' and 'teleport (must cross intervening space (-1/4)) is that teleport can do things like get you to the roof of a building without needing to climb the stairs, or get you up the side of a building where you can cling to that flagpole.  Running doesn't let you do that.  But neither power takes any 'time'.  If you wanted your version of 'running' or 'teleport' to take 'time' then buy your movement power with the 'takes extra time' disadvantage.

[Doc Democracy]

I am sympathetic with Crusher's aims here, even if I am uneasy about the mechanic twisting way of getting there.

 

HERO does not give any archetype special powers, though the system does favour certain things, but those have been getting slowly weeded out the system.

 

Speedsters are one of the more difficult archetypes to simulate in some ways. Bricks are the easiest.

 

Crusher is in the same position as I find myself oft times on the boards. He has a feeling that vanilla stuff is not simulating what he wants perfectly and, after some serious thought, has come up with a wheeze that should work for what is desired. When presented on the boards there are a multitude of picky details that tarnish the idea and I push back, more and more defending the wheeze instead of looking to address the problem.

 

I was leaning exactly towards the solution BigDamnHero postulated, that a trigger on an EB might be one or an EB that requires the firer has to make a full move that takes him within HTH distance of the target. There are a number of potential ideas.

 

There is more though. The idea of interposing yourself between an attack and a victim? What about FF usable by others? The SFX are that you dash across, block the attack and get back again. As a defensive power, you can abort to that if you want.

 

There are lots of ways to get the speedster you want, it just isn't as obvious as it might be with more straightforward powers. It also means you need to think before writing stuff down in the character sheet. In trad form this would be FF, usable by others, other must be within full move, etc etc. I would, as GM, be content for the points spent on this to be written as "Takes a bullet - can abort an action to protect a target". I would even work the bureaucracy as an attack against the speedster rather than using FF etc, so that any damage leaking through impacts the speedster rather than the target.

 

My advice to you, Crusher, is learn from my mistakes. Present the idea, listen to what folk are saying and focus on solving the problem than defending the wheeze. :-). I would have felt much less stressed if I had learned that sooner.

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

 

1. No, triggers, once set last 'a long time' so with a triggered power without the limitation, I could set the trigger and then fire it off next week.  The point of the (-1/4) limitation is to make it so you have to set the trigger and use the power in the same segment.  This is to prevent, for example, setting triggers for every single one of your forms of movement (since setting a trigger on a power that is in a multipower and having that trigger persist even when you swap your slot in the multipower out is explicitly allowed.  Of course, doing that sort of thing would be pretty cheesy, but it's generally better to explicitly shut down something you don't want like that with the rules.

 

 

 

I phrased that wrong: you COULD set it off next week, but you are not going to.  Movement of this sort is only actually useful in combat, and you are inevitably going to set it to go off this phase as you don't know what you are going to be doing next phase or next turn or next week.  If it is only a theoretical limitation and not an actual limitation in proactive, you do not get a cost break.

[Crusher Bob]

I can think of at least two advantages that you gain from the trigger never expiring:

 

1. You can set your first trigger useage out side of combat.This saves you a trivial amount of END, but more importantly, lets you setup an automatic defense that you don't need an action to take.

 

Example:

Pre combat:

Speedster guy: I set my movement trigger to 'when someone tries to punch me'

Combat starts:

(Phase 12)

Speedster guy: I delay my action

Brick: I try to punch speedster guy

Speedster: I move away automatically, making your punch auto fail.

Speedster guy: Now, I take my turn, reset my trigger and do stuff

 

2. It lets you set up auto defenses similar to the above, but without having to abort and action to do so.

Example:

(continued from the above combat)

Speedster guy has used his phase 12 action to punch brick, and reset his trigger to 'when someone tries to punch me'

Bricks first phase:

I try to punch speedster guy again

Speedster: Ha! my triggered movement goes off again.  You'll never punch me!

 

Of course, this brick quickly starts looking for work arounds, like throwing things at speedster guy.  But speedster guy can potentially still trigger move around a corner, or something, making even that hard for Brick to do.

 

As long as speedster guy is only facing one opponent, he can never be punched (by a single opponent), because he will always be able to trigger move away.

 

If speedster guy can trigger move around a corner, he can also make himself immune to blaster guy.

 

------------------

 

With the (-1/4) limitation, any time speedster guy wants to get a defensive movement, he has to abort an action so he can take a phase, so he can take a 0 phase action to create a trigger.

 

This is not a large disadvantage, it's only (-1/4) which does in fact, cover small disadvantages; And it makes speedster guy punchable, which is nice. 

 

There are probably a few other uses of movement that takes no actions at all to do that I haven't though of yet.  But forcing speedster guy to have to have an action in the phase he wants to trigger move is certainly a disadvantage.

[massey]

I'll be the first one to say....

 

I don't have a problem with it.  It's going to be pretty expensive once you buy it up to normal levels of movement.  The only reason it looks cheap initially is because you're selling off your base movement to do it.  At higher levels of movement, you're spending a lot more points.  It's probably cheaper in the long run to just buy passing strike and flying dodge.

 

 

And as far as an earlier point that got dropped, I've been using movement multipowers for years and years.  They're great.

[bigdamnhero]

So you just said that a 'normal guy' can 'instantly' be 'over there', blocking that attack, because you can abort to move + block?  It's no different that speedster guy being instantly 'over there', which is what you are complaining about?!

No, I said a normal guy can Abort to take his next action early, which is a Full Phase Action. All that's being changed is the Initiative Order (to use a non-Hero term). The action takes the same amount of time that it normally would - it only seems instantaneous because of the artificiality of the Turn Sequence.

 

That said, I did just remember the book does say you normally can't Abort to a Movement Action. I've been willing to handwave that under certain circumstances, particularly with speedsters, but that's not RAW.

 

'Running' and 'teleport' are specific rules constructs.  Taking 'time' to get where they are going is included in neither rules construct. 

...

But neither power takes any 'time'.

No, they both take 1/2 a Phase. That is time. That's why I said Triggered Movement is essentially buying yourself more time. Tho that would technically be true of Teleportation as well, Teleportation is already a magical superpower that defies physics & common sense, so I'm less likely to throw the BS card at that one.

 

Look, if you want to treat Running that way, and you can sell your GM on it, then juego con dios. I think it's playing with the letter of the rules to subvert the clear intent, and is completely unnecessary to boot. But it's your game.

[massey]

No, I said a normal guy can Abort to take his next action early, which is a Full Phase Action. All that's being changed is the Initiative Order (to use a non-Hero term). The action takes the same amount of time that it normally would - it only seems instantaneous because of the artificiality of the Turn Sequence.

 

That said, I did just remember the book does say you normally can't Abort to a Movement Action. I've been willing to handwave that under certain circumstances, particularly with speedsters, but that's not RAW.

 

No, they both take 1/2 a Phase. That is time. That's why I said Triggered Movement is essentially buying yourself more time. Tho that would technically be true of Teleportation as well, Teleportation is already a magical superpower that defies physics & common sense, so I'm less likely to throw the BS card at that one.

 

Look, if you want to treat Running that way, and you can sell your GM on it, then juego con dios. I think it's playing with the letter of the rules to subvert the clear intent, and is completely unnecessary to boot. But it's your game.

 

I don't see the problem of a movement action taking time.  Trigger allows you to use a power that normally takes time, outside of the normal phase order.  If you have a Triggered power, you effectively get extra (limited) actions.

 

I'm a Spd 2 normal.  I act on 6 and 12.  If I take a movement action, for purposes of the game I move 6" on segment 6.  Obviously in real life I don't burst forward in spurts every six seconds.  I move in a continuous way.  The game represents this, for ease of play, as all taking place during a one-second period.  If I had triggered movement like the OP describes, the visual effect is that I was just able to move faster, cover a longer distance.  There wouldn't be any sort of instant blinking away, or movement in no time.  I would have just always been moving faster than if I had not used the trigger.

 

The special effect looks the exact same as if I had a different power construct.  Look at these builds:

 

Guy 1)  20" Running, passing strike.  This guy can move 10", punch someone, and then move 10 more.

Guy 2)  13" Running, Trigger.  This guy can move 7" as a half move, punch someone, and then move 13 more.

 

Theoretically Guy 2 can move a little bit faster than Guy 1, but he's restricted on exactly how far he can half move before punching.

 

Guy 1)  +3 DCV, not when attacking, doesn't stack with dodge maneuver.  This guy can make a full move while "dodging".

Guy 2)  Triggered running.  This guy can make a half move, dodge, and then trigger his full move.

 

 

SFX wise, these abilities look the exact same.  In both of these cases, I think the guy with the triggered running is probably paying a little more.  The exact cost will be different depending on the amount of movement involved, and whether it was okayed for the guy to sell back his initial running, but you're still only talking about the difference of a few points.  Given the way Hero costs progress, the higher powered the character, the less important that initial sell-off becomes.  10 points means a lot to a 100 point character, it means very little to a 700 point character.  The cost of the trigger advantage on your movement is going to become higher and higher the more movement your character has.

[Sean Waters]

First off an attack has to be the last action you take, so the example above for the 20" move guy ONLY works with a move based manoeuvre.  I'm not even sure 'passing strike' is in the rule book any more - might be in a supplement - but certainly all the basic moves, there are penalties for moving fast while attacking.  This allows you to attack with any attack.  If you are using a move based attack you are not limited to how you split the move up anyway: you can move 7, attack and complete the rest of your 13 to total 20.

 

Second I don't think that the intention is that the triggered action takes no time as such, just that it does not cost you any time from your phase once it is set.  Generally this is not going to be much of a problem but triggered movement is not as straightforward as a triggered attack.

 

Attacks, generally, don't need to take any time (they take time to DO them, but don't need to take time themselves).  Movement is the same mechanically, but if the movement actually takes no time or a negligible amount then you are moving really, really fast.  Again this might not be a problem if the intention is simply to use the power to move after attacking, and only use the amount of movement you would normally get in a phase, but there is nothing stopping you from:

 

Phase starts.  Set trigger (0 phase) to move 12m immediately after you move.  Move 12m (a half phase action that still allows you to use 0 phase actions). Set a trigger to do 12 m of movement after you attack, attack, trigger activates and you move.

 

That would mean that that your 12m of movement has allowed you to move 36m (you are normally limited to only 24 if you double move) and attack (normally you can not do a double move and attack) and move away.  As far as I can see that is all rules legal.  It does not even feel TOO abusive, as you are paying for the trigger.  What you are doing though is moving further than you normally could and getting yourself out of immediate danger.  You could even set that final trigger to go off if you are attacked, so you get a full move, an attack and (unless it is a large AoE) automatically avoid the first attack against you.

 

Very speedstery, I grant you, but also very powerful for just a few points: even if you had higher levels of movement it would still not be mad expensive and the additional move allows you to get even further away: anyway, you could just buy a naked trigger on a relatively small amount of move for your autododge/get out of danger schtick.

 

If what you really want to do is move after you attack, as a way of splitting up your move in a manner the rules do not generally allow, you can build that with additional limitations, and a slightly different setup, but the way it is built, you can do the above, and worse.

 

My original comment was 'that is what GMs are for': I maintain that - it is rules legal, but I don't think that you should get to do it in a game, any more than I would allow you to use a triggered blast to set five attacks on a single target and get some kind of alternative autofire.

 

I'm not trying to stifle creativity, but if what you want is a specific effect, build the effect, not a construct that does far more than you need to.  If this was limited to 'total move I could otherwise have taken in a phase', cool.  I mean, triggered movement as an attack avoider is metagaming to my mind, but YMMV.

 

I'd also contend that the way that the system is set up is that if you want more movement, you buy more movement.

[Doc Democracy]

No, they both take 1/2 a Phase. That is time. That's why I said Triggered Movement is essentially buying yourself more time. Tho that would technically be true of Teleportation as well, Teleportation is already a magical superpower that defies physics & common sense, so I'm less likely to throw the BS card at that one.

 

If you consider the rules as written then nothing actually takes time.  In combat, things happen instantaneously but your opportunities to do stuff only come up after certain amounts of time (segments) pass.  Strictly speaking combat movement happens in a discrete rather than continuous flow.  But that is for the convenience of the system rather than for any simulationist reason.  

 

However, I would be loathe to try and reflect any kind of feel based purely on an artefact of the system that indicates stuff takes no time.

[Crusher Bob]

 

I'm not trying to stifle creativity, but if what you want is a specific effect, build the effect, not a construct that does far more than you need to.  If this was limited to 'total move I could otherwise have taken in a phase', cool.  I mean, triggered movement as an attack avoider is metagaming to my mind, but YMMV.

 

I'd also contend that the way that the system is set up is that if you want more movement, you buy more movement.

 

5 points for the flying dodge maneuver gets you almost exactly the same attack avoidance ability.  It also adds +1 DC to your dodge. 

 

Assuming buy the 0 phase movement trigger construct as a naked advantage on your regular movement will limit you to only moving your total movement per phase (rather like flying dodge does) then you can't get 'extra' meters of movement out of the zero phase movement.  you'd have to buy separate movement with the trigger attached to go further.

 

Will let discussion run a few more days, then post it up on the official rules questions thingy.

 

Here's the list of questions so far:

Can you move at non-combat speed during a triggered move (and take the appropriate OCV and DCV penalties)?

 

If you buy trigger movement as a naked advantage on your regular movement, are you still limited to a 'maximum' of your full movement, or is the use of triggered movement 'separate' from your 'regular' use of the movement?

 

Can you use stretching to move your viewpoint (e.g. stretch your neck to look over a wall or around a corner) or is that only possible with clairsentience ('long' range) or the adjacent sense modifier ('short' range)?

 

Does the 'zero-phase movement' trigger construct work like I think it does?

 

Does it let you:

move -> strike -> triggered move

recovery -> triggered move

other full phase action (like multiattack) - > triggered move (i.e. is taking a recovery a special case)?

 

Abort -> move + dodge

abort -> move + block

abort -> move + block (for another target) that is now within my reach because of the triggered move?

 

Does the triggered movement automatically 'no sell' hth attacks, just like flying dodge does?

Could I use my triggered movement to 'chase' someone who was using flying dodge or triggered movement to get away from my punch, and still have the opportunity to hit them, if they couldn't move away far enough?

 

Is (-2) an appropriate modifier for (stretching: only to still hit people who flying dodge or triggered move away while I try to punch them)?

[Sean Waters]

A flying dodge is a combat manoeuvre, so it follows the rules: you can't use it in the same segment you attack, so I think there is a difference there.

 

As I understand the rules:

 

 

I can not see why you should not be able to trigger non-combat movement, subject to the strictures that imposes: if you can trigger megascale movement then you can trigger non combat movement.

 

If you buy a trigger on your movement and you exceed your normal combat movement in a phase.

 

Not sure where the stretching question came from...I'd allow it to be used to change your viewpoint, but then I'd make Stretching a movement power.

 

I'm not sure if I'm reading your shorthand right, but if you can trigger movement then you can do it after anything HOWEVER, I'd require you to define what the move is when you set the trigger.  What you are not getting is more time to do a move, you are pulling a trigger for a power you have already set.  If the power you trigger is 'move 20m due north' then you do, even if that runs you off a cliff'.

 

If a triggered move interrupts an attack then you are not where you were when the attack lands.

 

You could not use your triggered movement to chase someone as you would have to define the trigger when you set it.

 

-2 is rarely an appropriate modifier - it is only really used for things that hardly ever happen, and I'm pretty sure everyone would be buying triggered movement if this is how you let it work.

[Crusher Bob]

-2 is rarely an appropriate modifier - it is only really used for things that hardly ever happen, and I'm pretty sure everyone would be buying triggered movement if this is how you let it work.

 

Flying dodge has been around for, I'm not sure 15 years? and let's you auto escape h-t-h attacks if you can and want to abort an action.  Triggered movement has been around just as long.  This is nothing new.  Just the addition of the 1 segment duration of the trigger is new, and the attempt to see what can be done with it as a general (rather than specific) power construct.

 

Does ever character have flying dodge?  Does every character now have a defensive triggered movement ability?  If the only excuse of why not is 'I didn't know you could do that!', then me writing up this power construct to show that you can do exactly that doesn't change what you could do before.

[Sean Waters]

It may not be new, but a flying dodge is not the same as triggered movement.  Triggered movement does not require you to sacrifice your next action and FD does not let you use two combat maneouvres in one phase as a combat manoeuvre ends your phase.  What a triggered move does is moves you when the trigger is pulled, probably here 'if I am attacked'.

 

In most cases even 2m of move would take you out of melee range and you could build an autoreset to allow you to dodge all melee attacks (I appreciate you have not here).

 

In addition the limitation on the trigger is 'only lasts a phase phase', so once the phase is over then the trigger expires - you don't get another segment (although, if the next segment came round you could then Flying Dodge, if you had it, but obviously only the once).

 

In fact having a one phase limitation effectively prevents an 'autododge' unless you trigger an attack against you on your phase, so I'm going back on what I said earlier - it is a limitation in that case.

 

If this is JUST so you can move after attacking, why not simply use the combat manoeuvres that are designed for that?

 

If the 'one phase' limitation is meant to be 'until next phase' then I would contend it is not a limitation in practice and does not get a cost break as you can easily reset it again before you would have used it anyway.

[Sean Waters]

Also I would assume that triggered movement only allows (like FD) you to move out of the way of a melee attack (unless you remain within the reach of the attacker) or AoE that you get out of the area of: it would not help against a ranged attack.  Others may see that differently, but it seems to make that is in accordance with the spirit of the rules.