Movement as a zero phase action?

[Crusher Bob]

Triggered movement can help against ranged attacks.  Can think of 3 ways off the top of my head:

1. move further away: increase the attackers range penalties

2. move into cover (will have to look up how cover works in hero, now that I think about it), but I'd assume it makes you harder to hit.

3. move somewhere they probably can't target you, like around the corner of a building, into an area of darkness, etc.

 

And yes the 'trigger expires' limitation is meant to require you to have had an action in the phase you use the trigger. So, for example, if you wanted to trigger move in response to something someone else did, you'd have to abort an action.  So you can't do the standard trigger move defense of setting the trigger to 'when I'm attacked' and just letting it run.  With the limitation, your trigger won't last.  You'd have to abort (to get an action) -> use 0 phase action to create trigger -> do whatever your official abort action is (dodge, block, I dunno) -> have trigger move go off. 

 

I supposed if you expected to be attacked in the same phase you took a normal action, you could set your trigger to 'when I'm attacked', but I'd assume that saavy opponents would just hold their attack all the way until the next phase, when your trigger will have expired.  Of course, this would then give you the option of aborting to dodge, since they waited until the next phase.  So there there appear to at least be some tradeoffs in holding until next phase to attack speedster guy.

 

All this is also why I suggested (-2) on stretching to just be able to punch irritating speedsters right in the face when they try this sort of thing.  It's either totally irrelevant and wasted points, or a reasonably cheap way to counter an semi-exploitative ability.  Though I guess with all the other possible limitations that can be put on stretching that has this limitation (only to do damage?, no NCM?, costs END?) (-2) may end up being too much.

[Sean Waters]

Flying dodge certainly gives you the benefit of range modifiers if you move further away, but specifically says that you can not get the advantage of cover: I would probably play it the same way with triggered movement.

[Hugh Neilson]

I supposed if you expected to be attacked in the same phase you took a normal action, you could set your trigger to 'when I'm attacked', but I'd assume that saavy opponents would just hold their attack all the way until the next phase, when your trigger will have expired.  Of course, this would then give you the option of aborting to dodge, since they waited until the next phase.  So there there appear to at least be some tradeoffs in holding until next phase to attack speedster guy.

I'm trying to think of the SFX this simulates. "He's ready to spring but will uncoil in a second and won't be able to coil back up for a few seconds"?

[massey]

The conversation has really flown around all over the place on this.

 

But as far as the special effects go, this is how I'm envisioning the power.

 

You know how in comics, when somebody is supposed to be doing something fast, they'll draw the guy in like 3 different positions in the same panel?

 

 

or

 

 

I couldn't find a great example, but I know I've seen better ones.  Well anyway, this is the same effect.  Batman or somebody will do a front flip, land on the ground, kick a dude, spin and kick another dude, then leap away through an open window.  And you'll have like 4 different Batman images in a single frame.  Triggered movement works well for that, sort of a super-passing strike.

[Sean Waters]

...

 

I couldn't find a great example, but I know I've seen better ones.  Well anyway, this is the same effect.  Batman or somebody will do a front flip, land on the ground, kick a dude, spin and kick another dude, then leap away through an open window.  And you'll have like 4 different Batman images in a single frame.  Triggered movement works well for that, sort of a super-passing strike.

 

Nightwing is just dodging, Batman is just moving and using casual strength on the window.  For some reason.

 

I appreciate they are not the best examples you could find , but the move/attack/move/attack/move thing can be done with a multiple move-by.  

 

Point is you don't really NEED a trigger to do that, you just need a trigger to change how we already do it.  It is a power to re-write the rules for how combat works, and I think that is why I don't like it.

 

You could probably also do this with a held action so it look like you get several goes at once.  That also requires the players to do a bit of in-game planning rather than just at the character build point.

 

...what your examples do show, very clearly, is why we have a rule that soliloquies take no time

[steriaca]

You could say that causal movement is a zero phase action, but you can't move more than that unless you take a movement phase. Causal movement is half of your half move (or, to simplify things, a one fourth move). You can't do a causal FTL movement. There is also no such thing as a causal Extradimentinal Movement. It is up to the GM if there is something about causal Teleport.

[Hugh Neilson]

Game mechanics are seldom a perfect simulation. I recall an old comic from the Hero Publishing line that had a former villain telling his story of how he was defeated. He and his buddies were gamers, and all of his tactics were based on game knowledge. when the Super attacked him and then moved, that was his downfall - the possibility never crossed his mind, since you could not do that in the game.

 

We've played with allowing actions after, rather than only before, an attack. The sky did not fall. d20 allows it, and it works there as well.

[megaplayboy]

Moving after attacking was disallowed for game balance reasons. You could attack and run constantly, making it very hard for an opponent to hit you. If you change the rule, try to think about how to rebalance things so it doesn't get out of hand.

[Hugh Neilson]

Again, never a major issue in actual play. The model has been with us since 1e, so it was never actually "disallowed".

 

Want to fight from a distance? High movement and Strafe or Move By. You move after attacking.

 

Buy range skill levels and don't close at all. Move away if they come after you.

 

"I attack then move away". "OK - I close in and attack"

 

He has more movement than you? "I delay my phase to attack him when he closes in"

 

There;s a sort of Chicken Little response when removing the restriction is considered - I had it myself for a long time - but the sky does not fall.

[Crusher Bob]

Official answers here.

 

Note that taking a recovery is a special case action, and you can't trigger move on the same phase.

[Christopher R Taylor]

If I ever have the strength to run another game, I'll let people move after attacking.  It doesn't really seem to matter in other games I've played.

[doccowie]

As always in RPGs, it depends on how people choose to use it.

If you have a player who gets (say) an ranged attack and Teleport 40m safe blind and disappears behind a different building after every shot I suspect it could be somewhat wearing. Alternatively just having Running 50m would often render you immune to melee attacks.

In most games movement speeds don't vary enormously, so it's difficult to attack and then escape. Potentially in Hero there are plenty of builds that could be disruptive, even without exciting trigger based options...

Of course the GM can modify the opponents, but the more specific the modifications the more obvious it is to the players, and it can cause ill feeling.

 

"Really? Black Paladin has Entangle as well, now? I thought it was a bit odd that Ogre was carrying a glue gun, but this is getting ridiculous."

[Christopher R Taylor]

If one of the characters was specifically built a "Captain Hit and Run" to take advantage of this as their main schtick.... I'd be fine with that.  I find builds like that and concepts that kind of break things like the mentalist who gave everyone else mental defense fun to work with as a GM.  I wouldn't care for every character in the game being that way, though.  Then its just cheesy.

[megaplayboy]

We had a house rule that mentalists had to place their character on the battlemat, in order to discourage the "sniper mentalist" tactic.

[Lollypopalopicus]

1)  The "Trigger" has to be "easily verifiable" with commonly possessed senses. For example, "Snapping your Fingers" or "Clicking your Heels" are legal Triggers, but "Thinking About Moving" is not. As such, you cannot define the Trigger as simply "Taking a Zero Phase Action", you have to define what that Zero Phase Action is.

 

2)  The fact that the Trigger Expires should not be considered to be worth any "Less Advantage" value on this power construct, because it doesn't cost you anything to set the trigger. However there is no reason to have to set a different trigger every time either; it could always just be "Clicking Your Heels" or "Snapping your Fingers", which would mean the actual advantage value remains the same.

 

3)  Zero Phase actions can only be performed at the beginning of your phase, or after a half phase action, they cannot ever be performed after an Attack. Adding or Removing Velocity are special Zero Phases actions which can each only be performed once per phase, so regardless of how you build the Trigger modifier you can still only activate the movement power once per phase; since you cannot deactivate the movement power until you reach 0 velocity, and you can't accelerate or decelerate twice in the same phase.

 

Beyond those points; As a GM I would probably never let a player purchase such a power construct (or anything remotely like it). The whole thing stinks of the worst sort of power-gaming

 

I know you only need to use the trigger to activate it, rather than for every 1m, but I am highly amused by the mental imagery of someone having to snap their fingers every time they take a step. Especially a speedster.

[Hugh Neilson]

As always in RPGs, it depends on how people choose to use it.

 

If you have a player who gets (say) an ranged attack and Teleport 40m safe blind and disappears behind a different building after every shot I suspect it could be somewhat wearing. Alternatively just having Running 50m would often render you immune to melee attacks.

How, exactly, does he do that?

 

Seg 12, Blast and Teleport Away - OK. If he did not take his opponent down, his opponent can now move about unseen, but if building for abuse he'll also have N Ray Vision or some other enhanced sense, so he can keep track of the opponent.

 

Next Phase, what does he do? He can Teleport in, attack and now he has to wait - he can't move again as he has used his entire phase coming back and attacking.

 

Meanwhile, his teammate who did not bother with such chicanery buys the same N Ray Vision and mental or indirect attacks, so he does not need to move in order to attack from behind the building. He can do that whether or not we allow movement after an attack. Rather than Teleporting, he'll buy Tunnelling, fill in the hole, so he can just stay 2 meters below the surface and attack indirectly throughout the entire battle.

[bigdamnhero]

If I ever have the strength to run another game, I'll let people move after attacking.  It doesn't really seem to matter in other games I've played.

My standard rule for years has been "You can move after attacking...as long as it isn't abused." It's literally never been a problem. I wouldn't let people combine it with Move-Bys/Throughs, as that could be unbalancing, but that's about it. After all, it's not terribly hard to find examples of "I take a shot and then duck behind cover" in any genre.

 

I know you only need to use the trigger to activate it, rather than for every 1m, but I am highly amused by the mental imagery of someone having to snap their fingers every time they take a step. Especially a speedster.

"Boy, Boy, Crazy Boy! Get cool boy!"

[Deadman]

As a GM I can respond to this as it would play out in MY game.

 

First, I wouldn't let you sell off your base movement unless there were a reason conceptually (Paraplegic, Brain in a Tank, etc.).  In my opinion that is pure munchkinism and I would rule against it.  I may allow a Naked Advantage for them on a case by case basis.  In my games I don't allow characters to sell off something that they are buying in Powers unless there is a conceptional reason for it (Perhaps an 8 year old kid in powered armor or something similar).

 

Second, Triggered Movement is a useful and beneficial tool that I do allow it in some cases.  For example one of my players is a Precog who has a Trigger set up to "Dive For Cover" when attacked with an AoE attack (which I allow with some limitations like Requires Multiple Rolls: Danger Sense and DEX).

 

Third, I wouldn't allow a character to Abort to set a Trigger since that act itself is not defensive (even though it is to facilitate such an action) that again seems like an abuse of the system.

 

Forth, I do like the build for a speedster and would possibly allow it as an addition to his normal movement.  A good example would be buying that Multipower on top of his standard movement.  Which I understand would somewhat remove the appeal since it would cost a bunch of extra points.  I would question why his Swimming and Leaping are so much higher than his Running?   Obviously I wouldn't accept the answer: Because they are cheaper and I can buy more of them.

 

Needless to say I adhere to a true concept of a character and my players are required to come up with a reason that the powers they buy fit the concept that they have created.

 

Just my $.02,

[bigdamnhero]

For example one of my players is a Precog who has a Trigger set up to "Dive For Cover" when attacked with an AoE attack (which I allow with some limitations like Requires Multiple Rolls: Danger Sense and DEX).

I like that example, and wish I'd thought of it for my last precog character!

[doccowie]

Not quoting, Hugh, but yes, you're correct, there are always more abusive and entirely legal builds out there :-)

My thought would be it is an easy way to get two attacks in for every one the slower melee based attacker can manage.

I'm sure I can come up with a build that can do it, I'm even surer you can come up with one that is even worse...

 

Honestly, I suspect bigdamnhero has the right idea, move after attacking if it's not abused.

And, as always, my definition of "not abusive" is something that everyone at the table is happy with.

[Hugh Neilson]

I suppose if the characters have identical SPD, and the Teleporter has superior DEX, then the Teleporter can always move on his phase so the defender can only use his reserved phase to hit the Teleporter when he pops in.  Of course, the lower DEX character could Hurry to act before that higher DEX Teleporter.  Or he could use his phase, after the Teleporter pops out, to do something else, such as double team one of the Teleporter's teammates while he has no opponent.  And nothing stops the whole team reserving to all coordinate an attack on Teleporter when he pops back in.

 

It's pretty easy to frustrate the melee combatant if you can fly and have a ranged attack - even easier if you buy a few PSLs against range modifiers.  If the characters are melee focused, don't reserve to attack, reserve to Grab and throw, or Trip.  Now if you want to attack and pop out, then pop in and attack, you will have to stay prone.

[massey]

That's why you let bricks throw cars at people.  Martial artists break line of sight and make stealth rolls.  Standing there and trying to fight a guy with more movement than you and more range is stupid.

[Lucius]

That's why you let bricks throw cars at people.

Just don't let people throw bricks at cars!

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Or at palindromedaries