Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Cantriped]

I agree with Doc's disagreement.

Allocating limited resources, such as CSLs and points of Multipower Reserve, is one of the Hero System's basic principles.

Regardless, it really is quite easy (for a fairly experienced writer) to create a pregenerated Multipower Reserve such that in the "Quick-Play Rules" you can only cast one "Attack or Utility Spell" per phase (because they are Multipower Slots that use the entire reserve), while maintaining a Movement Spell and any number of Defensive Spells (which are bought outside the reserve as a general rule). Even continuing effect spells aren't that hard to fit into a simplified power framework, that is exactly what Continuing Charges, Uncontrolled, and Time Limit (as an Advantage) are most commonly used for.

[Chris Goodwin]

Multipower is the easiest mechanic to hide. Just don't get complicated with it. Don't have a 60 point pool with 4 multi slots, 3 60 point ultras, 3 20 point ultras, etc.

 

Do it like this instead:

 

Multipower, 60 points

Fireball -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Radius +1

Lightning bolt -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Line +1

Cone of Cold -- 2D6 RKA Area Effect Cone +1

 

Magic spell pool

This ability allows you to use any attack spell known up to the level of the magic pool, one at a time. Because the caster must maintain control over the magic, an attack that continues to inflict damage phase after phase will stop if the caster begins to cast a different spell.

 

Easy.

 

Easy for you and me, maybe, and others who have playing Hero since the late 1900's.  Brian (the OP), do you want to run this past your buddy?  

[Brian Stanfield]

I agree with Doc's disagreement.

Allocating limited resources, such as CSLs and points of Multipower Reserve, is one of the Hero System's basic principles.

Regardless, it really is quite easy (for a fairly experienced writer) to create a pregenerated Multipower Reserve such that in the "Quick-Play Rules" you can only cast one "Attack or Utility Spell" per phase (because they are Multipower Slots that use the entire reserve), while maintaining a Movement Spell and any number of Defensive Spells (which are bought outside the reserve as a general rule). Even continuing effect spells aren't that hard to fit into a simplified power framework, that is exactly what Continuing Charges, Uncontrolled, and Time Limit (as an Advantage) are most commonly used for.

 

I agree  that a multipower doesn't have to be complicated, but now you're running the risk of this getting confusing for a beginner again. A magic multipower is pretty straightforward, but once you start talking about the reserve, spells which aren't part of the multipower, etc., it gets to be potentially confusing. 

 

It seems like you could bypass some of the troubles by requiring attack spells to carry the limitations of gestures and concentration, so only one could ever be used at a time. The movement and defensive spells don't have to have these limitations so that they can be maintained from phase to phase. All of this information would be, of course, hidden from view so that they don't have to keep track of this stuff in their first few games.

[Brian Stanfield]

Easy for you and me, maybe, and others who have playing Hero since the late 1900's.  Brian (the OP), do you want to run this past your buddy?  

 

I tried this before, giving him basics on the magic system I had in mind, and he just said, "show me a list of spells I can choose from." That is fairly instructive for this project, and is partly why I started thinking about it. For him, I think, he was already beyond frustrated and just wanted things to me made as simply as possible. By the time he finally just said, "how about you just make a pre-gen for me," we ran out of time and haven't been able to get back to it since. 

 

In addition, Lucius, I let my beginner friend play around with Hero Designer, but it really didn't help him at all because he didn't have any sort of reference point for which skills, talents, etc., were really useful because he didn't yet understand how the game played. Even after I bought all the Fantasy Hero Hero Builder packs he was still not very comfortable or clear about what to choose. He had no rationale in his mind yet.

 

With this in mind, Spence's (and others') suggestion that the build information is provided in an appendix or separate document is a really good idea. Giving a rationale for each build seems like it would be absolutely essential to helping players learn the hows and whys about building a character. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I tried this before, giving him basics on the magic system I had in mind, and he just said, "show me a list of spells I can choose from." That is fairly instructive for this project, and is partly why I started thinking about it. For him, I think, he was already beyond frustrated and just wanted things to me made as simply as possible. By the time he finally just said, "how about you just make a pre-gen for me," we ran out of time and haven't been able to get back to it since. 

 

In addition, Lucius, I let my beginner friend play around with Hero Designer, but it really didn't help him at all because he didn't have any sort of reference point for which skills, talents, etc., were really useful because he didn't yet understand how the game played. Even after I bought all the Fantasy Hero Hero Builder packs he was still not very comfortable or clear about what to choose. He had no rationale in his mind yet.

 

With this in mind, Spence's (and others') suggestion that the build information is provided in an appendix or separate document is a really good idea. Giving a rationale for each build seems like it would be absolutely essential to helping players learn the hows and whys about building a character. 

 

I honestly don't see any way to do a Multipower that exposes the game element code block* while remaining simple.  You can expose it and get the eye-glaze, or you can hide it, in which case I'm not sure why you're bothering to call it a Multipower.  You can group a bunch of spells and say "You can only use one of these at a time," without even bringing up the word Multipower; that's what we're trying to achieve with the rest of the magic system.  Again, Multipower is in the appendix at the back of the book, with the full Powers rules, for when a player is ready.  Until then, we're spending points to choose things off a list.  Any more complicated than that and we lose people.  

 

While D&D and its derivatives have a lot of info, they do a not-terrible job of filtering out stuff for new players.  Even if you're a caster of some kind, starting out at first level reduces your options to "choose a spell from this small list".  As a player, you can learn the new stuff as your character advances to need it.  Shallow end first.  

 

* which is what I'm calling the full Power build info that causes a beginner's eyes to glaze over

[Eisenmann]

In addition, Lucius, I let my beginner friend play around with Hero Designer, but it really didn't help him at all because he didn't have any sort of reference point for which skills, talents, etc., were really useful because he didn't yet understand how the game played. Even after I bought all the Fantasy Hero Hero Builder packs he was still not very comfortable or clear about what to choose. He had no rationale in his mind yet.

 

 

There's no way that I could build out powers with Hero Designer. My current project is about running the hero's journey where the PCs start out as skilled normals, so the software was nice for shifting points around the various character aspects, that is skills vs OCV, etc. That actually helped get us to the table. Even then it took a lot of book referencing and rule section unwinding.

[Doc Democracy]

Hmm.

 

A mage has to balance the number and power of spells his magic matrix can hold.  The more powerful the spells, the fewer the matrix can hold.  As all magical power derives from the moon, each spell is rated by the Guild based on its power in terms of Lumen.  The Lumen capacity of the matrix limits how many spells a mage has available to cast at any one time.  

The mage may switch spells in and out of the matrix but this takes time and study.

 

Arkelos the Mage knows the following spells (each with its Lumen value in brackets) 

 

Magic Missile (2)

Fireball (4)

Shield (2)

Tenser's Floating Disc (1)

Web (1)

Portable Wall (1)

Shocking Grasp (2)

Invisibility (3)

 

Arkelos has a matrix with a Lumen capacity of 6.  That means, after some study, he can have Invisibility, Web and Shield ready to cast at any time.  If he wants to cast Shocking Grasp, he would have to replace Shield or Invisibility.  He cannot have more spells ready than his matrix can hold....

 

 

See.  That is a multipower.  It could be made more complex but as long as you are talking lumen and matrices then you are not talking HERO, you are talking magic.

 

:-)

 

Doc

[Chris Goodwin]

Ok, sure, but what if you're putting it in front of an experienced Hero GM?  I mean, at some point I'm going to look at that and wonder which part is the Active Points and which part is the slot costs.  

 

Why the insistence on putting Multipowers in front of Brian's buddy?     To me, that defeats the whole purpose.  Again, put them in the back of the book, with the full Powers rules, for when people are ready to use them.  

[Cantriped]

Hero Designer can be a useful tool, and I sometimes use it when I've already finished a character design to more quickly export them onto a player character sheet. However, it exposes those of us using CC/FHC as our primary rules reference to lots of confusing and extraneous information because you cannot filter out all the shit that doesn't exist in CC/FHC. As I've grown more experienced with Hero, I've come to view Hero Designer as a crutch, and worse, one that encourages bad habits. Now days I do all my writing in Hero from scratch, using the books themselves. Doing so has honed my understanding of the rules (because I spend more time reading the actual books), and encouraged me to develop more efficient formats for describing Game Elements. Now I've got a fairly good collection of Open Document files that I can use to generate content (mostly) in keeping with the Writers Guidelines for 6th edition (something that is actually fairly difficult to do with the information exported from Hero Designer).

 

...

See.  That is a multipower.  It could be made more complex but as long as you are talking lumen and matrices then you are not talking HERO, you are talking magic.

I love that! Everything is better with magitechno-babble!

 

Meanwhile Back On Topic:

One of the last people I taught Hero to was very dyslexic, and therefore almost literally couldn't read the rule book. The formatting of power constructs apparently made it much worse, so even Champions Powers wasn't much help. Eyes glazing over didn't even begin to describe their problem with the system. They had a much, much easier time learning the system after I built a character to their specification and we played a few sessions with it.

 

If your friend has already asked for a Pre-Gen; I suggest getting in touch with him a few days before your next attempted gaming session and figuring out what kind of character he'd like to play. Then build as simple a version of that character as you can, explain to him you'll revise the character based on his feedback after the session (because a character built based on a verbal description is never perfect), and run him through a few simple scenarios so that he can roll some dice and have some fun. Focus on getting your friend over the hurtle before you spend too many hours trying to write a whole tutorial; you need the experience too, and his feedback will be invaluable in informing your tutorial later.

[Brian Stanfield]

And it goes off the rails again.

 

This is not about showcasing hero build rules or introducing specific setting micro-niche races/archetypes.  

 

It is about taking the most common and widely known races/archetypes and deliberately avoiding the build/creation system as much as possible.

 

That way new to hero players and GM's can see an example of how the system plays using set common known races/archetypes as a reference to understanding the game stats as applied to the game world.  

 

A warrior with a sword that hits does X. 

An archer with a bow hit like this and does damage like this.

Armor works like this.

A 15 STR can throw X.

 

The basics that most players never get to because they abandon the game in character generation because they have to make decisions on builds with no reference.  

 

In order to get Hero back into the eye of gamers it has to be interesting they have to be guided to playing the game.  Not being driven away before they even begin by the build/CharGen rules.   The demo should be able to be played without any referencing anything in the Character Generation portion of FHC. 

Dear god don't let them open that part of the book!!! At least until they have played through the Demo game scenarios. 

 

After the first scenario or two of play,  give them a couple pre-defined choices to spend XP on.  Just like FFG's Star Wars beginner sets.

 

Part 1:

Three or four scenarios with pregenerated PC's designed to allow the players and GM to play a FH game with zero or very very very limited exposure to the build rules. 

  >Play scenarios 1 & 2

  >Apply XP

  >Play scenarios 3 & 4.

Nothing unique, just common standard PC's and threats using common and standard races and archetypes. 

Operating key parameters, common well know races/archetypes/threats only. 

 

Part 2:

Now that you have played a few scenarios, let's answer some questions.  How was everything in Book 1 built.  Why were certain decisions made? Why Why Why does the Hero Build rules do this that and the other thing.   Just what is meant by "reason from effect" in practice?

 

Part 3:

Just for fun lets all build a Human Warrior!

And then lets play the warriors in Scenario 5 to see what we did!

 

Part 4:

Now that we have a idea of what we are dealing with, lets have fun!

Making you own archetypes. 

Just abandoning archetypes altogether.

Suggestions for custom races. 

Magic?  Magic devices? 

Unleashing Heroes ability to model anything!

 

For the last 30+ years Hero has made the assumption that a players eventual wish to customize means there wasn't any need fo them to actually play before trying to write everything from the basement up.  

 

The reality is players eventually wish to customize games after they have played them enough to want to get creative. 

 

Play then Build.

Not "Try to build without reference and then maybe play".

 

I think FHC and CC are fantastic books.....for the GM and player who are well experienced in playing and running game using the Hero rules.  

Everything is presented quite clearly....if you already know the basics.

 

But to actually get to the play rules you have to navigate virtually blind through the hero build rules with no reference for how build decisions will actually work in play.  

 

Anyway, enough soap box. 

 

Carry on smartly

 

So let me play devil's advocate here (my own custom professional template?):

 

I started this thread with the idea that I wanted to simplify learning the game rules, but also the character creation rules. So if we give pre-gens it is not teaching a simplified method of character generation. I know I always hated pre-gen characters when I learned a game. That's just me, but as has been pointed out, one of the great strengths of Hero is that it can offer templates without creating undue constraints on character generation.

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally get your point here: learn the game play first and then learn how to build characters. But if we keep adding more to it, as you suggest in multiple parts, that potentially gets to be a huge document again.

 

Would it be a good compromise to offer quick-creation rules? Say choose one race template, which are all built with an equal number of points, and one professional template based on the same number of points, to create the basic framework for the player. Perhaps a list of skills, weapons, and spells to flesh out the basic starting structure. It seems like it would be a step up from a pre-gen in the sense that it offers the flexibility, shows variety, but also get their feet wet while keeping it simple. That way we don't have to limit things to one dwarf fighter, one elven archer, etc., but could have the templates to choose from, all with a tight point cap to keep them equal no matter what you choose.

 

I'm kinda curious to see what these Champions character creation cards are going to look like. I've also brought up the Champions quick character creation in 5th and the Super Hero Gallery in 6th edition, but nobody seems to have an opinion on these things. It seems like the could offer a model for quick, balance character creation.

[Doc Democracy]

Ok, sure, but what if you're putting it in front of an experienced Hero GM?  I mean, at some point I'm going to look at that and wonder which part is the Active Points and which part is the slot costs.  

 

Why the insistence on putting Multipowers in front of Brian's buddy?     To me, that defeats the whole purpose.  Again, put them in the back of the book, with the full Powers rules, for when people are ready to use them.  

 

I could write that multipower so that it worked as written.  Obviously Lumen capacity represents the reserve of the MP and the active points of the powers determine the Lumens of that power.  Slot costs are the points used to buy spells from the Guild.  I thought that would have been transparent to anyone familiar with the system but the rules details would be available in a GM appendix...if they WANTED to read it.  Ideally, to run the game, noone would need to.

 

The multipower construct is important to the system - building a magic system that uses multipowers means that they can later be revealed to anyone interested in the guts of the system and will allow adventurous GMs to ad-lib and create new spells that fit with the existing ones.  The point is that the system does not have to be on show.  The multipower does not have to be one power at a time to keep it simple enough for newbie play.

 

Brian's buddy is a cypher for folk new to the system...some of them will need to be exposed to stuff that we use multipowers for and the question was put as t whether that could happen without showing our working...

[Brian Stanfield]

I honestly don't see any way to do a Multipower that exposes the game element code block* while remaining simple.  You can expose it and get the eye-glaze, or you can hide it, in which case I'm not sure why you're bothering to call it a Multipower.  You can group a bunch of spells and say "You can only use one of these at a time," without even bringing up the word Multipower; that's what we're trying to achieve with the rest of the magic system.  Again, Multipower is in the appendix at the back of the book, with the full Powers rules, for when a player is ready.  Until then, we're spending points to choose things off a list.  Any more complicated than that and we lose people.  

 

While D&D and its derivatives have a lot of info, they do a not-terrible job of filtering out stuff for new players.  Even if you're a caster of some kind, starting out at first level reduces your options to "choose a spell from this small list".  As a player, you can learn the new stuff as your character advances to need it.  Shallow end first.  

 

* which is what I'm calling the full Power build info that causes a beginner's eyes to glaze over

 

Yes, in retrospect I think maybe this is the point I was trying to make. I agree. I'm more inclined to say, as has been bought up, "pick 5 spells: 2 attack, 1 defense, 1 utility, and 1 of any kind" just to make things simple. Attack spells can only be cast one at a time, but defense spells and movement spells can be maintained. This would all be revealed in the "build appendix" later. 

[Brian Stanfield]

 

Thinking back to my first few Champions characters, back in the 1900's, even I stayed away from Multipowers and Elemental Controls.  I still strongly recommend that the spellcasters for the Fantasy Hero Begins product be built with a very basic "pay your points, get your spell" model.  Once all of the players, and the GM if need be, have graduated beyond the need for the beginner's set, then they can play with deeper builds.  

 

Robot Warriors is an excellent example of this.  Pages 6-18 of the book present exactly what we're talking about: the Battle Game, which is a very basic combat scenario (nothing more than "slap down a hex board, choose a couple of sample robots, fight!"), a sample robot sheet, and a few pages of description about how this thing and that thing and the other thing work without going into any detail at all about how to build them.  In fact, it doesn't even bother with a character sheet for the pilot.  Hopefully fair use permits this quote from the book:

 

 

This thing right here. That is what we should be striving for.  I would recommend that everyone, if you don't already have Robot Warriors in paper or bits, head over to the Hero Games store and drop $4.98 on it.  

 

(The size of the rulebook, by the way, that they don't want you to get intimidated by, is 160 pages total, including the Battle Game, how to build robots, the roleplaying game with how to build characters, how to fight, campaigning, and so on.)  

 

I have never looked at Robot Warriors. I'm going to go pick it up now just to see what you're talking about. I notice that they are a special point of explaining the quick-start Battle Game as a way to play the game right away. This is what I'm trying to develop here as a concept. 

[Chris Goodwin]

So let me play devil's advocate here (my own custom professional template?):

 

I started this thread with the idea that I wanted to simplify learning the game rules, but also the character creation rules. So if we give pre-gens it is not teaching a simplified method of character generation. I know I always hated pre-gen characters when I learned a game. That's just me, but as has been pointed out, one of the great strengths of Hero is that it can offer templates without creating undue constraints on character generation.

 

Don't get me wrong, I totally get your point here: learn the game play first and then learn how to build characters. But if we keep adding more to it, as you suggest in multiple parts, that potentially gets to be a huge document again.

 

Would it be a good compromise to offer quick-creation rules? Say choose one race template, which are all built with an equal number of points, and one professional template based on the same number of points, to create the basic framework for the player. Perhaps a list of skills, weapons, and spells to flesh out the basic starting structure. It seems like it would be a step up from a pre-gen in the sense that it offers the flexibility, shows variety, but also get their feet wet while keeping it simple. That way we don't have to limit things to one dwarf fighter, one elven archer, etc., but could have the templates to choose from, all with a tight point cap to keep them equal no matter what you choose.

 

I'm kinda curious to see what these Champions character creation cards are going to look like. I've also brought up the Champions quick character creation in 5th and the Super Hero Gallery in 6th edition, but nobody seems to have an opinion on these things. It seems like the could offer a model for quick, balance character creation.

 

I love the Superhero Gallery.  I'm looking at running either a Champions game or a Star Hero game soon for a group of about half new RPGers and half experienced with D&D only; we've been playing a campaign about every month or two since last April.  I'm going to try to leverage the Superhero Gallery for Champions; if it ends up being Star Hero, I'll probably just do pregens.  

 

I could write that multipower so that it worked as written.  Obviously Lumen capacity represents the reserve of the MP and the active points of the powers determine the Lumens of that power.  Slot costs are the points used to buy spells from the Guild.  I thought that would have been transparent to anyone familiar with the system but the rules details would be available in a GM appendix...if they WANTED to read it.  Ideally, to run the game, noone would need to.

 

The multipower construct is important to the system - building a magic system that uses multipowers means that they can later be revealed to anyone interested in the guts of the system and will allow adventurous GMs to ad-lib and create new spells that fit with the existing ones.  The point is that the system does not have to be on show.  The multipower does not have to be one power at a time to keep it simple enough for newbie play.

 

Brian's buddy is a cypher for folk new to the system...some of them will need to be exposed to stuff that we use multipowers for and the question was put as t whether that could happen without showing our working...

 

We have real world evidence that Multipowers are a barrier to entry.  I didn't even try to work with them until I'd been playing Champions for a while, and I was a 15 year old high school geek at the time.  So, why not hold it off until the new folks have been playing for a while?  

 

Once you know OCV and DCV and roll 3d6 to hit and for Skills, and know where to look on your sheet for STR damage and Hit Locations and your armor values... have gotten used to the procedures of play, but also have an idea of what all the advanced terminology means, maybe have an idea for a character that you want to try to build on your own... then bring out the Multipowers.  

 

Multipowers are the deep end of the pool -- no, scratch that, they're the diving well and a 10 meter diving board.  We're still trying to get people comfy getting their feet wet in the shallow end of the pool.  You gotta learn to dog-paddle before you can learn to dive.

[Brian Stanfield]

Personally much of these arguments are why I would prefer an 175-point Adventurers Gallery (ala the Superhero Gallery from Champions) to having a dozen example characters. In such a gallery every 175-point archetype might present two or three characteristic sets (Strong Knight, Agile Knight, etc) built on 85-100 points and would instruct players to select the rest of their game elements from multiple choice lists of skillsets and racial templates built on 15 to 30 points each. Each archetype would be Human by default, but if the player wants to play an Elf Knight instead, they simply replace one of their skillsets with the Elven Racial Template. Likewise if they wanted their Knight to know "just a little magic" they could replace one or more of their skillsets with a 30 point "Minor Magic" template that gave them a weak Multipower Reserve and 3 to 5 "spell" slots. Such a system would leverage players familiarity with D&D style character generation, yet still allow them to benefit from the inherent versatility of the Hero System.

 

I'm inclined to agree with you here. Although I like the utility of pre-gens, I never really like playing them myself. I think a gallery with variations, or groups of templates to choose from (one from race, one from profession, etc.) that are all balanced in terms of points is the better option. So we don't have to create characters that may or may not interest someone based on their own preferences, we only need to offer them a list of choices to pick on their own. It would be a very simple character creation method, but gets their feet wet with some of the choices to be made and how they relate to each other. Someone wants to play a dwarf? Fine. A dwarf archer, you say? I hadn't thought of that. It's weird, but hey, go ahead and pick that skill set to go with the dwarf template. Let's see what happens. 

 

There's a little bit of investment in terms of character building, but it doesn't derail into the rabbit hole of research that paralyzed my buddy when he first looked at the character sheet. 

[Chris Goodwin]

I have never looked at Robot Warriors. I'm going to go pick it up now just to see what you're talking about. I notice that they are a special point of explaining the quick-start Battle Game as a way to play the game right away. This is what I'm trying to develop here as a concept. 

 

Bear in mind it's from 3rd edition, using Hero as a sort of house system rather than universal.  It doesn't even include the Powers rules, and it has its own specialized build system for mecha weapons.  But those 12 pages are freakin' gold.  

[Brian Stanfield]

There's no way that I could build out powers with Hero Designer. My current project is about running the hero's journey where the PCs start out as skilled normals, so the software was nice for shifting points around the various character aspects, that is skills vs OCV, etc. That actually helped get us to the table. Even then it took a lot of book referencing and rule section unwinding.

 

Have you tried Hero Combat Manager yet? I haven't, but it takes care of a lot of that stuff for you (from what I understand).

[Cantriped]

I'm kinda curious to see what these Champions character creation cards are going to look like. I've also brought up the Champions quick character creation in 5th and the Super Hero Gallery in 6th edition, but nobody seems to have an opinion on these things. It seems like the could offer a model for quick, balance character creation.

All of my suggestions regarding an "Adventurers Gallery" have been references to the Superhero Gallery from Champions 6th edition. I cannot stress enough how awesome the Superhero Gallery is. It takes more time to transcribe the character to a sheet than it does to actually build a fairly well balanced character. For 400-point superheroes that is an epic achievement!

If I ever publish a campaign setting or adventure path of my own, it will include a similarly formatted Gallery in lieu of pregenerated characters.

[Hugh Neilson]

I'm far more interested in seeing familiar character types. That way it's easier for me to get oriented and help my players to do the same.

So you show the new player a system that can simulate a Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, Human Cleric and Elf Wizard, and the ask "why don't we just play D&D which has all of these without investing any brainpower in learning a new game?" I think that is a valid question. Providing some options that do not work in D&D provides a reason to consider this game instead.

 

The problem is that the best sample characters would then be ones which do things the players are frustrated cannot be done in their current game. Those frustrations won't be consistent. But we might pick an armored Arcane Caster, for example, to show a non-D&Dism.

[Chris Goodwin]

So you show the new player a system that can simulate a Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, Human Cleric and Elf Wizard, and the ask "why don't we just play D&D which has all of these without investing any brainpower in learning a new game?" I think that is a valid question. Providing some options that do not work in D&D provides a reason to consider this game instead.

 

The problem is that the best sample characters would then be ones which do things the players are frustrated cannot be done in their current game. Those frustrations won't be consistent. But we might pick an armored Arcane Caster, for example, to show a non-D&Dism.

 

I see your point, but there are tons of fantasy games that can do all of those character types, not just D&D.  Why you'd play them in Hero is to have familiar territory.  I'm tired of playing campaigns with Tolkienian stereotypes, but they're useful to get people started, and I'd happily run a starting session with them to introduce new folk to the game.

[Brian Stanfield]

Hero Designer can be a useful tool, and I sometimes use it when I've already finished a character design to more quickly export them onto a player character sheet. However, it exposes those of us using CC/FHC as our primary rules reference to lots of confusing and extraneous information because you cannot filter out all the shit that doesn't exist in CC/FHC. As I've grown more experienced with Hero, I've come to view Hero Designer as a crutch, and worse, one that encourages bad habits. Now days I do all my writing in Hero from scratch, using the books themselves. Doing so has honed my understanding of the rules (because I spend more time reading the actual books), and encouraged me to develop more efficient formats for describing Game Elements. Now I've got a fairly good collection of Open Document files that I can use to generate content (mostly) in keeping with the Writers Guidelines for 6th edition (something that is actually fairly difficult to do with the information exported from Hero Designer).

 

I love that! Everything is better with magitechno-babble!

 

Meanwhile Back On Topic:

One of the last people I taught Hero to was very dyslexic, and therefore almost literally couldn't read the rule book. The formatting of power constructs apparently made it much worse, so even Champions Powers wasn't much help. Eyes glazing over didn't even begin to describe their problem with the system. They had a much, much easier time learning the system after I built a character to their specification and we played a few sessions with it.

 

If your friend has already asked for a Pre-Gen; I suggest getting in touch with him a few days before your next attempted gaming session and figuring out what kind of character he'd like to play. Then build as simple a version of that character as you can, explain to him you'll revise the character based on his feedback after the session (because a character built based on a verbal description is never perfect), and run him through a few simple scenarios so that he can roll some dice and have some fun. Focus on getting your friend over the hurtle before you spend too many hours trying to write a whole tutorial; you need the experience too, and his feedback will be invaluable in informing your tutorial later.

 

I have the same experiences with Hero Designer. I'd rather have a book in hand anyway to read the rules as I try things out. As you say, it helps create familiarity.

 

As for the pre-gen, here's the funny part: I sat down with his 11-year-old daughter when I was back home for Thanksgiving and we built a character in half an hour! I just asked her what she wanted to play, and she just started rattling off stuff (a young woman raises by wolves but taught druidry by an old woman who found her in the wilderness, she can talk to animals, control the weather, she lacks social skills, frightens people easily, and defends nature with ferocity). She really got into the spirit and the whole world was open to her. She even came up with her own Complications through the process. I think this is what we're really supposed to be doing when we build characters!

 

I tried the same thing with my buddy, and his decades of experience with D&D and Pathfinder made him really unsure of what he could or should pick, how the different parts related to each other, what templates were more useful, etc. etc. He was crippled by his gaming expertise, stuck trying to figure out if spells or swords were "better," which skills were "better," and things like this. I gave him the "Hero in 2 Pages" to read, and he looked at the combat example document I found somewhere, but it just seemed to confuse him more because now he got derailed in wanting to know all the minutiae of the characteristics in combat, and he spun off into more questions than he could handle. Meanwhile, his little girl just jumped in with both feet and had a blast because I was there to translate everything for her.

 

We never did play over Thanksgiving weekend, which was our plan. I gave him stuff to look at for when I returned for Christmas and New Years, but by then he had read so many different things that he got even more confused, even after I offered to build a character for him. We never did play over the holiday break this time either. This is what got me thinking in the first place. Some sort of document that can give newbies baby-steps, but also give some sort of orientation for more experienced gamers who aren't familiar with the Hero System yet. In two long holiday weekends we got exactly 0 hours of play in. Part of it is my fault, I understand, but I need an easier way to try to teach the game.

 

That is part of what, I think, Hero has to always fight against. Its lack of familiarity is "hard" for experienced gamers, and its complexity is too much for new gamers. In all honesty, when I grabbed the GURPS Lite document that someone mentioned last week, I read and understood it in an hour, enough so that I felt like I could maybe make a character with some people and play a little bit in one evening. We need something like this. Something more than 2 pages, but less than, say, 700, or even the 266 pages of Fantasy Hero Complete.

[Eisenmann]

Have you tried Hero Combat Manager yet? I haven't, but it takes care of a lot of that stuff for you (from what I understand).

 

 

By shifting points around OCV and skills, I mean at the character modeling stage. I'm that far back on the curve!

 

 

 

So you show the new player a system that can simulate a Dwarf Fighter, Halfling Rogue, Human Cleric and Elf Wizard, and the ask "why don't we just play D&D which has all of these without investing any brainpower in learning a new game?" I think that is a valid question. Providing some options that do not work in D&D provides a reason to consider this game instead.

 

The problem is that the best sample characters would then be ones which do things the players are frustrated cannot be done in their current game. Those frustrations won't be consistent. But we might pick an armored Arcane Caster, for example, to show a non-D&Dism.

 

 

If you want more people to play Hero then they have to have a familiar reference point that will translate into deeper usage of the system. Getting your head around the works is enough work.

 

 

Edit:

 

The sheer flexibility of Hero makes it difficult to know what one of the more traditional types even looks like on paper, without the wisdom garnered from experience playing the game.

[Brian Stanfield]

Bear in mind it's from 3rd edition, using Hero as a sort of house system rather than universal.  It doesn't even include the Powers rules, and it has its own specialized build system for mecha weapons.  But those 12 pages are freakin' gold.  

 

Why is it listed in the 5e Star Hero part of the store? Has it been updated? 

[Brian Stanfield]

By shifting points around OCV and skills, I mean at the character modeling stage. I'm that far back on the curve!

 

I'm starting to feel the same way, and I started playing it back in the '80s! After a long time off, and a bunch of new editions, I'm relearning everything again myself. There's so much more now, which I love! But there's a step learning curve. Hence this thread, right?

 

 

If you want more people to play Hero then they have to have a familiar reference point that will translate into deeper usage of the system. Getting your head around the works is enough work.

Edit:

The sheer flexibility of Hero makes it difficult to know what one of the more traditional types even looks like on paper, without the wisdom garnered from experience playing the game.

 

 

These are good points, and important to remember. That's what was holding my buddy back: he understood the fantasy tropes we are all familiar with, but he didn't understand what they looked like in Fantasy Hero. He appreciated the flexibility, but he was also overwhelmed by it, and couldn't figure out how it would look on paper. I was more than willing to help him do the translations, but he didn't even now where to start asking questions. He wanted to actually look at something and read it, not just depend on my explanation, and that probably ended out making everything worse for him.

[Hugh Neilson]

If you want more people to play Hero then they have to have a familiar reference point that will translate into deeper usage of the system. Getting your head around the works is enoughh work.

Speaking for myself, "here is a game you can invest time in learning to play the same characters you already play in a game you already know" does not entice me. Toss in a few archetypes alongside some things other games cannot create so effectively.

 

How is a Burly Dwarven Warrior in Heavy Armor a better choice for a sample character than a Hulking Lizardman with Tough Scales? Both fill the same niche in the game. If we want two pregens in each archetype, make one a Fantasy Trope Standard and the second a Hero Games Character that isn't as easy to play in D&D.

 

Don't try to make D&D using Hero - that leaves no reason to want to play Hero instead of D&D.