Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[Brian Stanfield]

DOJ's licensing is very easy and open like D20 used to be.  You submit some materials, ask for a contract, and if its not awful or makes them weep openly, they say "sure, its licensed!"  You can get a license from them that lets you keep putting out materials without asking.

 

I know that its harder and more complicated with other companies, particularly those with multi-million dollar world wide properties like Harry Potter.  On the other hand, Rowling seems willing to work with people that will put out quality materials, so who knows?  Her property is particularly complicated though because its been licensed to all sorts of companies and different media, so its likely at least one of them owns the rights to put out RPGs.

 

 

I also recently started pursuing licensing through Hero Games.

In the Client Area, Under Support, you can write to Hero Games requesting a license. Jason Walters e-mails you a contract to fill out and some generic writers guidelines (which boils down to: write good products). You snail-mail him two filled out copies of the contract contained in the E-mail, he snail-mails you back one of those copies (now signed by both parties), and boom done, you've got a two-year license with Hero Games. After which you begin submitting material for publication.

If your product includes a print run, you are required to provide a certain number of copies of that product for DOJ to sell at conventions and on-line. Otherwise you set the price, they take a cut of its sales, and pay you the remainder quarterly

 

 

Hero is, if you cannot afford to buy the physical copies, willing to work with you on that requirement, as well.  They're more interested in getting quality material on the shelf than making life hard on creators.

 

This is great information. Thanks! It gives me some stuff to think about. What do y'all think about an actual inexpensive boxed version of something like D&D puts out? The box seems to be an attractive item on a gameshop's shelf, and feel a little more like an investment into something. The free .pdf download of GURPS Lite is the other alternative, but it requires people to already know that GURPS exists, and to go looking for it. What's your opinion about something like this? (Note: this isn't a logistical question, just a "what if I lived in an ideal world" type of question).

[Christopher R Taylor]

I like the idea, and would do it myself if I could but its definitely a question of money and resources.  You need the physical box and the printed stuff, packaged up.  There are companies that do it, but they want large orders which runs into the big bucks.

[Hugh Neilson]

However, is this product intended to get people's feet wet (to overuse a metaphor) or be the start of a campaign?  It can be the latter, if that's what the people at the table want -- and it's perfectly serviceable for D&D style fantasy.  (SJG's Kickstarter for Dungeon Fantasy, Powered By GURPS, sure did well enough.)

I think we need to identify who we are trying to persuade to give Hero a try. To my mind, we are looking at people who already play RPG's - they are the ones who are going to find it. That means they have played at least one other game, likely to be D&D. Are players who are happy playing standard D&D characters the most likely to explore this alternative game, or is something they don't have in D&D more likely to attract their attention? I think the latter.

[Chris Goodwin]

I think we need to identify who we are trying to persuade to give Hero a try. To my mind, we are looking at people who already play RPG's - they are the ones who are going to find it. That means they have played at least one other game, likely to be D&D. Are players who are happy playing standard D&D characters the most likely to explore this alternative game, or is something they don't have in D&D more likely to attract their attention? I think the latter.

 

I'm not saying exclusively standard D&D type characters, but they've gotta be in there so everyone knows it's Fantasy Hero.  Because someone for sure is going to want to play an elven wizard, or a hobbitses thief or whatever.  We don't have to stat up every single Greyhawk and Faerun elvish subrace, but some kind of elf, dwarf, hobbitses, and so on, need to show up.  Heck, D&D 5e is getting pretty good at letting players play things that are not "standard D&D characters".   

 

And I still assert that the most frequently asked question in the Fantasy Hero forum is, "How do I do (thing from D&D) in Fantasy Hero?"  My evidence for this assertion is largely based on going back through the forum and seeing how many threads there are where someone asks that, and there are a lot -- an average of at least one per page.  To a lesser extent there are other systems or settings asked about also; Runequest and Harn show up frequently.  

 

This raises the question; what kind of non-standard (in other words, non-D&D) fantasy character types do you want?  The options are largely broken down to fight, sneak, or cast, in various permutations, along with whatever non-standard races you throw in.  

[Cantriped]

This is great information. Thanks! It gives me some stuff to think about. What do y'all think about an actual inexpensive boxed version of something like D&D puts out? The box seems to be an attractive item on a gameshop's shelf, and feel a little more like an investment into something. The free .pdf download of GURPS Lite is the other alternative, but it requires people to already know that GURPS exists, and to go looking for it. What's your opinion about something like this? (Note: this isn't a logistical question, just a "what if I lived in an ideal world" type of question).

 

My mother owns a Pathfinder Beginner's Box (as well as some of the actual books, such as the Core Rulebook and Ultimate Equipment).

 

The ruleset that comes with that box was more or less completely worthless to me (but given that I already have a bookshelf dedicated to Pathfinder, and have GMed a few campaigns that doesn't surprise me too much). However it came with a boatload of "Pawns" (high quality paper miniatures) that are just plain snazzy. The box was way bigger than it needed to be for what it contained...

 

A Fantasy Hero Box Set​ of roughly the same size could easily contain ​Fantasy Hero Complete​, a campaign setting ​Gazetteer, a Bestiary, two or three Adventures, a folder containing a dozen Character Sheets, a few sets of Hero Dice (3-6d6), and a boatload of Pawns.​ If Hero Games put out such a product, I would buy it... Even though I already own FHC, I could use a second copy, mine gets daily use and is bound to wear out eventually.

[Cantriped]

This raises the question; what kind of non-standard (in other words, non-D&D) fantasy character types do you want?  The options are largely broken down to fight, sneak, or cast, in various permutations, along with whatever non-standard races you throw in.  

There is a thread on the Paizo Boards regarding character concepts which Pathfinder doesn't support; I don't want to risk contaminating our boards by posting a link to that toxic cesspool... but it does make some interesting points.

 

Given Pathfinder's huge breadth common and unusual races, and base classes and variants on them, the list of "impossible" high-fantasy concepts is actually fairly small. Most of the legitimate complaints are regarding particular weapon styles not being favorable (such as using a Sword & Shield or Thrown Weapons), or requiring you play specific classes (such as Crossbows and Firearms). The rest of the thread is mostly just complaints regarding how building for a given concept restricts you to selecting all sorts of other unrelated things (a by product of using a class system), or how heavy the opportunity cost is for certain options compared to the reward.

 

At my tables, some have complained about the lack of options for playing a Necromancer. They are an archetype which D&D and Pathfinder have always made unnecessarily difficult to create and play.

[Ninja-Bear]

I picked up some Spike Shell monsters from Reaper minis. Think primitive humanoid turtles with spiky shells. There is a new race.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I agree an interesting option would be a premade PC necromancer -- he'd have to have a personality that would mesh well with other PCs, not some monster out to conquer and enslave the world, but it could be done.  Just someone who learns to defeat foes using the power of death.

 

I figure we'd be best off with six or so really basic, classic characters (warrior, rogue, priest, wizard, ranger, paladin for example) then four to six alternate builds (light warrior, mage/warrior, necromancer, druid, etc).

[Ninja-Bear]

Fantasy Hero Companion has the Winged people as a race.

[Cantriped]

I agree an interesting option would be a premade PC necromancer -- he'd have to have a personality that would mesh well with other PCs, not some monster out to conquer and enslave the world, but it could be done.  Just someone who learns to defeat foes using the power of death.

 

I figure we'd be best off with six or so really basic, classic characters (warrior, rogue, priest, wizard, ranger, paladin for example) then four to six alternate builds (light warrior, mage/warrior, necromancer, druid, etc).

My wife played a Lawful Neutral Necromancer in my last 3.5 D&D Campaign. Her character was trained by an organization that viewed the creation of mindless undead as recycling. They would purchase the rights to a peasant's corpse, and use zombies and skeletons they created from them to perform menial labor for their communities.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I could see several ways to make necromancers work without having to be evil and terrifying.  It could just be a branch of magic that some specialize in, focusing on the mana released by death, or one of the fundamental mystical forces of the multiverse, or someone who learns necromancy in order to fight evil undead, etc. Voodoo seems scary and evil until you learn that (unless its by a bad guy) the idea is that its healing and control magic using spiritual forces.

 

I didn't care for the Winged Folk simply because I don't like characters who can fly in fantasy.  It really ruins a lot of tactical and layout options for GMs.  How will we get past this chasm?  I'll fly over with you one at a time....

[Ninja-Bear]

Funny. I initially didn't like the Winged folk because how often will wings be useful in a dungeon?

 

And really I find the chasm argument odd.

A) Depending in magic, the chasm isn't going to stop the players either.

Really a character pays points to use a power and then denied?

C) Chasms are known to have strong winds. ; )

 

Anyways Im just throwing out "official" Hero system alternate races that aren't typical fantasy.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Really a character pays points to use a power and then denied?

 

 

Yeah that's why I wouldn't want them to be able to fly in the first place.  So they aren't, you know, spending the points.  Flight negates a lot of standard potential challenges in a heroic setting.  Oh no a huge cliff, we'll have to go around!  We're stuck here in this box canyon and have to stand and fight!  Meh, (flies away).

[Ninja-Bear]

C. Taylor I relooked at the.winged people and they have phy lim 1/2 lifting strength. Just caught that now.

 

Fwiw my biggest problem with them is why would they want to deal with land based humanoids?

[massey]

I think a lot of these ideas are really better suited for a campaign book.  "Options bloat" has been a big problem with Hero products.  I think we would want to keep an introductory adventure/tutorial as lean and mean as possible.

 

I think you take the standard fantasy races/classes, and then do something interesting with them.  You don't have to have a wacky race that nobody has ever seen before to make a character have cool abilities.  And lets be honest here, the generic fantasy races are the ones that have proven the most popular and the most enduring.  Any fantasy race we create for purposes of this intro book has a fairly good chance of ending up pretty lame.  I'm sure someone's going to want their half-angel winged catgirl to be an option.  And that's fine for a fully fleshed out fantasy world, but for an introduction, you don't want to spend time describing what this new race is and how they work in the game.  We want this to be as intuitive as possible.

 

So what do I mean, do something interesting with the standard races and classes?  Everyone understands elven wizard, dwarf warrior, hobbit thief, human ranger.  So how about taking those archetypes and doing something that D&D doesn't normally let you do?  So you have something like:

 

Hobbit thief with magic object -- he isn't as skilled as his companions, but he purchased a powerful magic item instead that lets him do whatever.  It doesn't have to be a magic invisibility ring, but perhaps a cloak of pass through walls?  Something that lets him be quite powerful in an unexpected, very non-D&D way.

 

Human druid who changes into a hawk -- no limits on the number of times you can change per day.  You can just change into a hawk.  There's a level of freedom to that power that D&D generally doesn't give.

 

Elven wizard who can absorb spells cast at him -- I think there were some D&D novels that had characters that could do this.

 

 

Things like that.  Those are typical D&D character types where Hero allows them to do stuff D&D never would.  Don't put the "look at the cool stuff Hero can do" focus on some weird character type that you created.  Every game has their own weird fantasy races that nobody likes.

[Christopher R Taylor]

Yeah I agree there needs to be a limit on the stuff that we put in.  the bonus with this concept is that nobody has to create the races as a full writeup with cultures and physical range of coloration etc.  We don't even need a racial template.  All we need is just a character that happens to have certain abilities because they are that race.  Elves see in the dark.  Halflings (personally I can't stand them, maybe goblins instead?) are really sneaky.  Dwarves are really tough and for their stature quite strong.  Built into the premade character its just part of who they are without needing the full writeup.

 

At that, I think we need to limit it to just a few interesting options, and I like massey's thoughts on how to make them distinct without needing to be too weird.

[Ninja-Bear]

Oh I agree with the bloat. I just think one extra race would be nice but not critical. I know we don't need two class of fighters.

 

I like to see a dwarf ranger or dwarf cleric.

 

Also how common are halfling wizards?

[Brian Stanfield]

My mother owns a Pathfinder Beginner's Box (as well as some of the actual books, such as the Core Rulebook and Ultimate Equipment).

 

The ruleset that comes with that box was more or less completely worthless to me (but given that I already have a bookshelf dedicated to Pathfinder, and have GMed a few campaigns that doesn't surprise me too much). However it came with a boatload of "Pawns" (high quality paper miniatures) that are just plain snazzy. The box was way bigger than it needed to be for what it contained...

 

A Fantasy Hero Box Set​ of roughly the same size could easily contain ​Fantasy Hero Complete​, a campaign setting ​Gazetteer, a Bestiary, two or three Adventures, a folder containing a dozen Character Sheets, a few sets of Hero Dice (3-6d6), and a boatload of Pawns.​ If Hero Games put out such a product, I would buy it... Even though I already own FHC, I could use a second copy, mine gets daily use and is bound to wear out eventually.

 

I kept waiting for a punchline about your mother . . . . If you're serious, that's pretty awesome.

 

As for the paper minis, I think that's a really good idea. However, the other stuff that you suggest gets really expensive right away: FHC and 18d6 Hero Dice is $60 right off the bat. I was already thinking along the lines of including those dice, but they're pretty pricey. The other stuff is definitely a good idea. 

 

What I was considering was something with a very low price point so someone could justify buying it on a whim from a gameshow without feeling too put out. The D&D starter kit is $20, and although it's really sparse, it seems like something that would be doable. I'm not trying to simply mimic what WoC is doing, since they have hordes of cash to back whatever they do, but it is an interesting idea.

[Brian Stanfield]

So, don't forget that part of what I'm trying to figure out in this thread is how to teach character creation, not just give pre-gens to play with. I think there is some value in offering some pre-gens, but I find it more useful for my purposes to offer maybe a more streamlined template approach to character creation, up front, at the beginning, so you don't have to go digging for them in an unfamiliar book. So let's not get too worried about which pre-gen characters to include because they would only be examples, not the only options.

[Cantriped]

I kept waiting for a punchline about your mother . . . . If you're serious, that's pretty awesome.

No punchline, I'm a second generation table-top gamer. I made my first D&D character when I was four... he jumped into a pool of acid and died.

[Christopher R Taylor]

So, don't forget that part of what I'm trying to figure out in this thread is how to teach character creation, not just give pre-gens to play with. I think there is some value in offering some pre-gens, but I find it more useful for my purposes to offer maybe a more streamlined template approach to character creation, up front, at the beginning.

 

 

Well the theory  here is that you create the pre-gens so people can dive in fast to get started learning how the system works, what the terms mean, and play right off the bat.  Then, when they are used to this and through the tutorial, then they can make characters.  Just a short scenario, maybe even start out right in the middle of the thick of things and fight your way out, a trip, and some interaction.  Something very simple.

 

Then when they sit down to make a character, they know what those die rolls are for, what their stats do, what the attacks are, and how skills and complications work.

[Brian Stanfield]

No punchline, I'm a second generation table-top gamer. I made my first D&D character when I was four... he jumped into a pool of acid and died.

 

Gee, thanks Mom.

[Brian Stanfield]

Well the theory  here is that you create the pre-gens so people can dive in fast to get started learning how the system works, what the terms mean, and play right off the bat.  Then, when they are used to this and through the tutorial, then they can make characters.  Just a short scenario, maybe even start out right in the middle of the thick of things and fight your way out, a trip, and some interaction.  Something very simple.

 

Then when they sit down to make a character, they know what those die rolls are for, what their stats do, what the attacks are, and how skills and complications work.

 

Fair point. We've talked about so many things I can't keep them all straight yet. But in all honesty, I'm wondering if giving them very basic character options if it wouldn't help, rather than pre-gens. I think Cantriped bought up the Character galleries as a possible option. It would act as an interface for the character creation process, and give them some guidelines of "what a character is supposed to look like," but also give them some leeway to make some choices. That way we don't have to have this ongoing debate about which fantasy tropes to include or exclude.

[phydaux]

Well the theory  here is that you create the pre-gens so people can dive in fast to get started learning how the system works, what the terms mean, and play right off the bat.  Then, when they are used to this and through the tutorial, then they can make characters.  Just a short scenario, maybe even start out right in the middle of the thick of things and fight your way out, a trip, and some interaction.  Something very simple.

 

Then when they sit down to make a character, they know what those die rolls are for, what their stats do, what the attacks are, and how skills and complications work.

 

Also, the sample characters can spark discussion.

 

"Why does every sample character have Combat Luck?"

 

"Why do all the fighters have Deadly Blow?"

 

"I get that the mage has a Multipower called Magic Spells, and the Slots are his spell list.  What if I want to have different spells?"  

 

"How many spells total can I have?  Is there a limit?"

[Christopher R Taylor]

Well I see two products possible from this discussion.  The first a super stripped own tutorial like I was talking about and the second an introductory campaign set that has the character creation stuff but still is stripped down from Fantasy Hero Complete to a more use friendly kind of product.  A "character gallery" sort of approach would work well with that.