Problems With Fantasy Hero Complete and Newbies

[massey]

Well I see two products possible from this discussion.  The first a super stripped own tutorial like I was talking about and the second an introductory campaign set that has the character creation stuff but still is stripped down from Fantasy Hero Complete to a more use friendly kind of product.  A "character gallery" sort of approach would work well with that.

 

Perhaps a super stripped down tutorial should be free, and the intro campaign with the character creation stuff should be cheap.  You try the tutorial, and if you like it, the intro campaign is your next step.

 

Doing it that way would allow for more resources to go into the campaign book.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I will say this, the discussions here and elsewhere along these lines have made me completely rethink the way I'm presenting my Player's Guide for my fantasy setting.  Instead of a more formal book its going to be a lot more light and stripped down to be as simple as possible.  There's no need for most of the things I was considering -- they can go in the GM book -- and the concept I was toying with of having "blocks" of things like stats, complications, skills, and backgrounds to combine for a character are becoming front and center.  I don't want it to be for dummies, but I think a "Powered by Hero" approach with an easy quick book to jump right into play for players is the right way to go.

 

Then, as people want to know more about the game and how it works, Fantasy Hero Complete is out there and the GM book has all the rest of the info on the world and setting.  They can get my other books (the Codex and the Field Guide) to see more specifically how the world plays out in greater detail.  I might even consider putting the Player Guide's pdf out for free.  Or at least a super basic version of it.

[Brian Stanfield]

I will say this, the discussions here and elsewhere along these lines have made me completely rethink the way I'm presenting my Player's Guide for my fantasy setting.  Instead of a more formal book its going to be a lot more light and stripped down to be as simple as possible.  There's no need for most of the things I was considering -- they can go in the GM book -- and the concept I was toying with of having "blocks" of things like stats, complications, skills, and backgrounds to combine for a character are becoming front and center.  I don't want it to be for dummies, but I think a "Powered by Hero" approach with an easy quick book to jump right into play for players is the right way to go.

 

Then, as people want to know more about the game and how it works, Fantasy Hero Complete is out there and the GM book has all the rest of the info on the world and setting.  They can get my other books (the Codex and the Field Guide) to see more specifically how the world plays out in greater detail.  I might even consider putting the Player Guide's pdf out for free.  Or at least a super basic version of it.

 

That's the spirit! I like where you're going with this.

[Brian Stanfield]

Well I see two products possible from this discussion.  The first a super stripped own tutorial like I was talking about and the second an introductory campaign set that has the character creation stuff but still is stripped down from Fantasy Hero Complete to a more use friendly kind of product.  A "character gallery" sort of approach would work well with that.

 

I was seeing that too, but I'm not sure it has to be two different things. It could be a stripped down campaign with simplified character creation, but with sample characters to work from. Or perhaps a step-by-step tutorial on character creation with templates to work from which already have the proper skills and things worked out and balanced, but with explanations or rationales in an appendix. I'm not sure yet because I'm still mulling things over. But I like a lot of the ideas that have been floated out here. They all seem to be compatible at some level, and could lead to something good!

[Brian Stanfield]

Next observation, related to the last. The greatest untapped strength of HERO is its scalability. I've mentioned this before, but it really has the potential for scaled levels of learning the game. Rather than throw all the rules out at once, they can be introduced a little at a time until the whole network of game elements is understood. As has been mentioned before, other games such as D&D do this with a level-based system, so that the rules are learned a little bit at a time, with new abilities and things coming over time. The overall volume of rules is actually more complicated in D&D, but they lower the learning curve over time. In all honesty, I re-learned D&D with the 5th edition last year, and played with a group weekly, and I remember that, even after reading both of the core books, I still had no clue what was going on. I just had to go through the motions of building a character and hoping for the best, and then learning at the table by asking lots of annoying questions that nobody but the older GM understood (coming from the old AD&D days). Even then, I was frustrated by all the special cases and loopholes that everyone but me had figured out. This is one of the reasons I left D&D in the first place and committed to Fantasy Hero in the late '90s.
 
I know that one of my biggest hurdles when re-learning HERO system's 6th edition, after a long hiatus, was looking at all of the options and being unable to distinguish between what was essential, or to even distinguish if some things were more essential than others. For example, in terms of combat there are so many maneuvers, and then martial maneuvers on top of those. Hero Basic helped reduce some of that, but it still seemed like a lot to digest at first. The powers/advantages/limitations is even more terrifying, and the skills can be daunting as well. It felt like, if I was to understand some of the rules, I had to know all of them before it would make sense. I know that was a problem my buddy was wrestling with as well when we talked about what was holding him back. 
 
So is it possible to boil things down to the bare essentials in each section of Fantasy Hero Complete for the purposes of a walkthrough that follows the same pattern as the book? In my mind, this would be a mid-level in-between step. A sort of "here are the bare essentials that you need to get under your belt before you go learn the full system."
 
In addition, would it make sense to have a completely barebones "basic" introduction before that? So as someone suggested before, perhaps a first chapter or basic .pdf to introduce the stuff at the most basic level, with some pre-fabs and some basic rules, a few adventures. Then would come the intermediate part with a more fleshed out presentation of the basics (as already introduced), with more advice and rationales added throughout, with documentation and references to other texts, and an appendix with the build information, etc.
 
Should it be multiple steps in one document/book, or should it be two document/books? Like the old D&D Basic & Expert sets from the early '80s (the red box and the blue box)? Or would just one document that covers it all be more in line, such as the GURPS Lite .pdf that is free online and comes in at 30 or so pages?
 
Just a few more thoughts. Or actually, reflections on already-discussed thoughts. 

 

*And just a reminder, I'm not trying to recreate D&D. I left it for a reason, and moved on to broader horizons with Fantasy Hero for a reason, so it's not a matter of trying to recreate what the other games do. 

[Christopher R Taylor]

I've been thinking this over and I think the biggest hurdle Hero faces right now is its greatest strength.  In 5th edition, Steve Long crystallized the concept of Hero as a toolkit: a structure by which you can make anything.  Its a great idea, and ultimately that's what hero has become from Champions way back in the early 80s.

 

The problem is that now its just a pile of tools.  Its able to make anything, but it contains nothing. Its like going into a machine shop with the amazing equipment and the 3D printer and the CNC and the plasma laser and the metal bender and all that.  You can make a car out of a pile of steel but... its just lying there as parts and tools.  And so now Hero has become not so much a game as the structures to make a game with.

 

So you have a wonderful pile of tools, but they are so varied and plentiful and sophisticated its intimidating to new players. And almost every book that comes out is... more tools and blueprints rather than finished products.  Great tools, great blueprints, but when people just want a car, they don't want a pile of steel and a room full of tools.

[Brian Stanfield]

I've been thinking this over and I think the biggest hurdle Hero faces right now is its greatest strength.  In 5th edition, Steve Long crystallized the concept of Hero as a toolkit: a structure by which you can make anything.  Its a great idea, and ultimately that's what hero has become from Champions way back in the early 80s.

 

The problem is that now its just a pile of tools.  Its able to make anything, but it contains nothing. Its like going into a machine shop with the amazing equipment and the 3D printer and the CNC and the plasma laser and the metal bender and all that.  You can make a car out of a pile of steel but... its just lying there as parts and tools.  And so now Hero has become not so much a game as the structures to make a game with.

 

So you have a wonderful pile of tools, but they are so varied and plentiful and sophisticated its intimidating to new players. And almost every book that comes out is... more tools and blueprints rather than finished products.  Great tools, great blueprints, but when people just want a car, they don't want a pile of steel and a room full of tools.

 

Quite true. I guess the approach to build individual games that are "powered by HERO" has some real appeal. Monster Hunters International is a really sharp game, and they should all have that sort of impact. The problem: it takes lots of work to build a game for yourself, which people will complain about. Of course, waiting for someone else to build that game means that you're stuck with the decisions they make for you. And then everyone would complain about that too!   "Hey, why are there winged people in my game?!"

 

So, back around full circle. A basic beginner game to introduce the rules and give a guided tour through the tool shop. Then they can pick up the tool kit and build it themselves, or just go ahead and pick up Turakian Age or something like that.

[Brian Stanfield]

Also, the sample characters can spark discussion.

 

"Why does every sample character have Combat Luck?"

 

"Why do all the fighters have Deadly Blow?"

 

"I get that the mage has a Multipower called Magic Spells, and the Slots are his spell list.  What if I want to have different spells?"  

 

"How many spells total can I have?  Is there a limit?"

 

I guess this is more like what I was imagining happening. Of course you went right for the spells, which is the hardest batch of decisions to make! But done well, like with an appendix to explain the builds, it can slowly open them up to the rules as a whole.

[jdounis]

What if anyone interest posted a character build the most friendly way he/she can think, so we can get more pragmatic and mix and match? Like a 125+25 build with one page limit?

[Cantriped]

For a tutorial project, the characters should probably be built to one of the suggested Heroic Character values:

Such as Standard Hero (175 points; 125 + 50). The following:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/files/file/355-bell-cranel-heroic-fantasy/

Is an example of a (more or less) legal Heroic Character for Fantasy Hero Complete. However considering that I wrote it from a simulationistic perspective rather than for simplicity; it neither fits into 1 page, nor is it an especially good example of a common archetype players are likely to pick from.

[knasser2]

I don't think that interpretation of the RAW is correct... The rule you are talking about is "Adjusting Defense Powers" (CC 46; FHC 55) and specifies that the "effect of any Adjustment Power that increases or decreases any of the following is halved". Aid and Absorption use the term "increase" and Drain uses the term "decrease" respectively. Healing, although also an Adjustment power, does not "increase" or "decrease" the affected game elements, it allows "a character to restore a lost or reduced" game elements. As such I do not think Healing is subject to aforementioned clause in "Adjusting Defense Powers".

 

If that's the case then I too read it incorrectly. I thought it had half-effect on Body and Stun and have built powers accordingly.

 

Healing is one of the parts I've found trickiest to adapt, actually, with its restrictions on how often it can be applied. In D&D you have it controlled from the other end - a given source (e.g. cleric) can only cast it so many times. Here, a given recipient can only receive it so many times. It makes for an odd difference with the adventuring day being necessarily shorter but say a paladin being able to heal a long line of ailing peasants when she comes to town.

[knasser2]

To bring the thread somewhat back on topic, I'd like to propose that "wall-o-text" Power writeups be put behind spoiler tags.  

 

"Plus One Weapons":  It's not impossible that during the course of adventuring you'll run across magical weapons.  Weapons with bonuses grant +1 to hit (OCV) and +1 point of damage for every point of bonus; every +3 worth of bonus equates to +1d6 Killing damage.  (Bludgeoning weapons such as staves and clubs, if magical, grant +1d6 Normal Damage per +1.)  

 

Weapons with generic bonuses of +2 or greater are uncommon, and those with +4 or greater are very rare.  Bonuses of greater than +1 are often specialized in nature, only applying to certain types of targets.  

 

Example:  The magical broadsword Dragonbane is +1 generally, but +3 against dragons.  The sword gains +3 to hit, and +1d6 Killing damage, against dragons, but is +1 to hit and +1 damage against all other creatures.  

 

Similarly, magical armor can provide bonuses.  Every +1 armor bonus provides +1 to resistant PD and ED, and +1 to the wearer's DCV, above and beyond the armor's normal protection.  Magical armor and weapons also do not encumber the owner.  

 

One of the things that keeps me slogging forward through these rules is the way things like the above stir the imagination and bring interesting nuance to the game. For example, in D&D, +1 Plate armour is just that: +1. In one line above, I realise that I can have magical armour that is magic because it adds Energy Defence. In my game I'm currently working on, armour has full PD (and equal resistive) and half that in ED. I can add some rune-enscribed armour that doesn't at all increase Physical Defence (and therefore is fairly easy to account for balance wise in my game) but will still be sought after and valued by PCs because it provides them protection against all those fireballs and lightning bolts and bolts of eldritch darkness. Trying to do the same in D&D would be what - +1 Save vs. Spells? 5% chance spell resistance? Nowhere near as elegant or cool. Or balanced! In my Fantasy Basic Set that I'm working on at the moment, I don't only try to simplify and present the rules easily. I'm trying to put at the forefront all the cool nuance that Hero 6th provides. Things like this. If a project like this is going to be successful, it can't only focus on cleaning stuff up, it also needs to showcase Hero's strengths.

 

I'm not very far through my Basic Set, yet. But it's going to be levels 1-3 of about eight different character classes, some level appropriate beasts and opponents and magic items, etc. I think it will not be a great introduction to the Hero system because a lot of the points calculations and workings will be obfuscated. But it will have the qualities of being something you can pick up and play very quickly and liberally peppered with "go look at this for more" references throughout. It's not really going to contain any rules but I reckon with a one or two page cheat-sheet of Hero systems (e.g. how to roll an attack and damage) it will be playable.

[Christopher R Taylor]

One of the big advantages that Hero has over a lot of current and especially newer game systems such as Savage Worlds is the number of stats.  While some recoil in horror at this, it actually means you have a tremendous amount of flexibility in builds.  For instance, in my upcoming Jolrhos Field Guide book, the section on smithing describes various enchanted and unusual metals that players can use to construct weapons and armor out of.  Each one has a slightly different effect, some with unusual special bonuses (like Bloodiron, which temporarily gains +1 damage class to weapons if you draw blood).  

As someone noted in the thread on defining Hero's uniqueness, the Pulp Hero book has like 4 pages of guns, each one subtly different from the other.  Some may call this overkill but I call it a neon arrow pointing at Hero's adaptability and strength.  If you only have 3 stats and a handful of mechanics, you have very little flexibility of this sort.

 

The trick is to play that up in a manner that doesn't make eyes cross or chase away players.

[knasser2]

One of the problems I always had with learning new games was that their unique worlds has different rules and archetypes, etc., which made it harder for me to learn (at least in my own mind). If I'm used to D&D character classes and races, it's hard to shift to something different. As you point out, it's a meta-problem, but a real one. I'm picturing using the traditional (i.e. D&D) tropes for the game in term of classes, races, spells, weapons, economy, etc. This makes the transition a little more intuitive.

 

That's one of the reasons I'm going with "character classes" for the Fantasy Basic set. Each one gets a theme and a potted summary which describes what it will be good at. So one of the first things a player sees is something like this:

 

Tempest

The tempest is a highly-mobile, skilled fighter. Never where the enemy expects them to be, striking quickly and difficult to pin down. Many a battle has been won by the tempest's unorthodox and highly-mobile fighting style.

Stalwart

Armoured and indefatigable, the Stalwart is a warrior well used to wading into the thick of battle. She is the wall against which the enemy crashes and the shield behind which her allies shelter. An expert in the use of armour, she can shrug off blows that would kill a lesser warrior.

Rager

A continuous source of anger and destruction, the rager is a warrior born. Foes fall before them in their dozens and the wounds they inflict upon the rager seem to only drive him to further acts of havoc. The greatest of their kind have even been known to fight on with mortal wounds, battling beyond the point of death yet refusing to lie down until the last of their enemy has been sent before them.

Slayer

A calculating and deadly opponent, wielding their weapon with the very greatest of expertise. The slayer excels at battling the very deadliest of opponents using a variety of techniques to hamper and wear them down. If an enemy has a weak spot, the slayer will find it. And when they strike, they do so to kill.

Righteous

An exmplar of an ideal, graced with the favour of a patron deity or power, the Righteous is a holy (or unholy) warrior. Trained in the arts martial, they also supplement their skills with strange powers - be they from the heavens or granted by a pact with Hell itself.

Runesmith

And so forth...

 

So instantly the player is getting a feel for what each class can do and how they will play. The Rager gets a lot of mass-damage, the Tempest eventually gets Speed increases, extra movement powers, etc. I think it will be a bit help.

[Cantriped]

If that's the case then I too read it incorrectly. I thought it had half-effect on Body and Stun and have built powers accordingly.

We have already been asked not to restart that argument in this thread. To discuss the rules for Healing, please go to this thread.

[jdounis]

That's one of the reasons I'm going with "character classes" for the Fantasy Basic set. Each one gets a theme and a potted summary which describes what it will be good at. So one of the first things a player sees is something like this:

 

 

So instantly the player is getting a feel for what each class can do and how they will play. The Rager gets a lot of mass-damage, the Tempest eventually gets Speed increases, extra movement powers, etc. I think it will be a bit help.

 

My personal opinion is that HERO is a perfect toolkit/system for a new paradigm, the plague that inflicts D&D are Classes,Alignments,Levels & Feats the 3 of the 4 are with D&D so many years 

that now are so an integral part of the system and even the new edition couldn't get rid of them.Introducing such things in HERO maybe be helpful for the transition to it but act like "Make your D&D

using HERO" instead of providing the free-form character creation power of a narrative system in an balanced and calculated gaming environment.

[knasser2]

I agree a "how we built them" supplement is a good idea.

 

I'm a bit behind on this thread and catching up, but I feel a Red Box / Basic Set approach is the most likely to get people in. Few people these days have the time to spend a few weeks up front learning rules and preparing. Give them something they can play and see how good it is right away with enough novel ideas to hook them in and keep the "How We Built Them" supplement available but clearly distinct. I'd recommend three "books". A player's book - combat, pre-gens, some equipment and spells. A DM's book - some advice, some monsters, some treasure (incl. magic items) and an adventure. Then you can gave a third "System Builder" book that is very clearly indicated to not be a requirement.

[knasser2]

My personal opinion is that HERO is a perfect toolkit/system for a new paradigm, the plague that inflicts D&D are Classes,Alignments,Levels & Feats the 3 of the 4 are with D&D so many years 

that now are so an integral part of the system and even the new edition couldn't get rid of them.Introducing such things in HERO maybe be helpful for the transition to it but act like "Make your D&D

using HERO" instead of providing the free-form character creation power of a narrative system in an balanced and calculated gaming environment.

 

Well nothing you say is wrong, but then we have different purposes. You're looking for a way to teach people Hero. I'm looking for a way to sell people on it indirectly and create a popular game using it. Build a userbase, then get a portion of that userbase going "I want to build my own supplements / archetypes / spells / beasts / worlds".

 

Big problem with Hero is that there's no picture on the box. You open it up and tip it out and you have lego pieces all over the floor. Now kids love to throw things together with wild abandon, but adults like to build something they recognize. We've all seen The Lego Movie here, right? OF COURSE the kid is right - creativity, imagination, lack of restriction and preconceptions. The kids are better than us. But most of us are the Dad, unfortunately.

 

So there are really two different goals at play. Hero really would benefit from a friendlier more structured How To introduction to what it's capable of. Totally agree and applaud such efforts. But there's also a different market - people like me who just want to run a great game but find every other system out there flawed - D&D 5e is horribly balanced and has some terrible design decisions in it for example. I want a kit.

[Christopher R Taylor]

I think we can use archetypes and professions to offer class-like choices to players, and suggestions for that character on how to advance them as they gain experience.

[Cantriped]

I think we can use archetypes and professions to offer class-like choices to players, and suggestions for that character on how to advance them as they gain experience.

I agree.

 

Although I've only played in one 5th edition D&D session, and therefore cannot comment on its level of game balance... I did really like the basics of the new character generation system: Selecting Race, Background, Class, and Class Archetype gives a fair range of different characters; from the publisher's standpoint it also gives them lots of discrete parts that can be expanded upon without upsetting the balance of the other parts too much.

 

Also, this is Fantasy Hero​; do we really have to inherit the fantasy-race glut that D&D suffers from? Is it a sin to present example characters as being Human by default? In may experience, most D&D players don't actually care which race they picked, they are just selecting the option for the game elements associated with it anyway (such as a bonus to the ability score their class/concept needs most).

Personally I'd prefer to allow the GM to decide if they even want their world to have elves and dwarves at all. "Building" characters from a gallery that includes racial and professional templates built on similar point totals will give players used to D&D familiar packages to choose from, while still giving the GM room to tweak the material somewhat to their preference.

[Ninja-Bear]

I can see it being reduced to Human, Elf, and Dwarf. I would encourge at least a these two races.

a) Mechanically it shows how a fantasy race looks in hero terms.

Is it really fantasy without some fantastic races?

[Cantriped]

You don't need a glut of fantastic playable races for it to be considered Fantasy​. Plenty of stories work just fine without them. In my opinion, including elves, dwarves, and such races simply obligates the writer to come up with a history for them all, and find way to distinguish those races without turning them into offensive stereotypes of extant human ethnicities. More importantly, the writer has to contrive a reason why one of them hasn't simply wiped the others out over the course of the thousands of years of history they often share. Lets face it, humans can't even stand one another, we have a long history for killing each other for far less justified reasons than being able to live for thousands of years (elves), or hording valuable natural resources (dwarves), or generations of living parasitically off of our efforts (goblins).

[Christopher R Taylor]

For a super simple intro, I think we need a few really typical races and maybe one or two unusual ones just to help set the game apart as noted before.  But fantasy is, for me, about magic and monsters, so no  you don't have to have alternate races to make it so.

[Ninja-Bear]

You don't need a glut of fantastic playable races for it to be considered Fantasy​. Plenty of stories work just fine without them. In my opinion, including elves, dwarves, and such races simply obligates the writer to come up with a history for them all, and find way to distinguish those races without turning them into offensive stereotypes of extant human ethnicities. More importantly, the writer has to contrive a reason why one of them hasn't simply wiped the others out over the course of the thousands of years of history they often share.

I disagree. This suppose to be a basic set. You do not need an in depth history of the races to play a.game.

[Old Man]

More to the point, I think that elves and dwarves are popular enough that they need to be included in any fantasy game for fear of alienating that one player who must play an elf..  To them I might add a race or two to showcase what Hero can do.