Genestealers: Or How I Learned To Stop Worrying And Love The Xeno.

[knasser2]

I'm porting over these lovely fellows for my epic WH40K conversion. Their reproductive cycle is giving me difficulties (and the odd nightmare). The bare bones version is that they implant their genetic material into a victim via an oviposter-like organ in their tongue. This suffuses through the body inserting itself into the host's cells. There's no cure in the fluff so far as I'm aware and it's depicted as Game Over generally. The host remains themselves in nearly all regards but their own progeny will be hybrids. Additionally they take on a few psychological compulsions. They begin to desire settling down and having children. They generally get the urge to withdraw from society (though just having enough privacy to raise their hybrid child without questions will do). They become accepting of the genestealer itself, sometimes even respectful, calling it "grandfather" or similar. Subsequent hybrid generations look more and more human until at the fourth generation they're almost indistinguishable. They can then head out into the wider world and their children will once again be full "purestrain" genestealers, starting the cycle over.

 

I was originally going to do this with Mind Control but the problem is that the change is permanent and there's no chance to break free. The only people I could see "fighting it" are legendary level characters such as Primarchs or Lord Inquisitors, which is way above most PC levels. So I hit upon the idea of using Transform to impose psychological complications.

 

This is pretty much the end of a PC, but then in order to do this, the genestealer has already got the PC in a position where it can kill you, so it's kind of a wash. You're rolling up a new character either way.

 

So does this look suitable costing?

 

Genestealer Kiss

Slot #1 (Transform 4d6, Severe, All Or Nothing -½, Inaccurate (0 OCV) -½, Extra Time (1 Turn, No Other Actions) -1½). Active Points: 60. Real Points: 17.

->Psychological Compulsion: Start a family

->Psychological Compulsion: Regard Genestealer as Friend.

 

Slot #2 (Transform 4d6, Severe, All Or Nothing -½, Inaccurate (0 OCV) -½, Extra Time (1 Turn, No Other Actions) -1½, Linked -1). Active Points: 60. Real Points: 13.

->Offspring are Genestealer.

 

Total Active Points: 120. Total Real Points: 30.

 

Even though it's a Mental Transformation I've skipped the Works Against EGO and AVAD modifiers because it doesn't make sense. A physically weak person with a strong mind is still going to be at a disadvantage to a large, powerful person when this thing tries to implant its seed in them.

 

Did I put this together correctly? Just looking for confirmation or pointing out anything I missed.

 

 

[unclevlad]

This could also be done via trickery, and anyone Entangled or deeply stunned is at risk.  Yeah, I get such a person could be killed by simpler means, but still.  

 

First, while scaling a Transform for something like this is tricky...I don't see 4d6 being *close* to enough.  

 

Seocnd...why try to make the point cost sane?  This SHOULD be insanely expensive in points, given the consequences.  IMO, it's a pretty common flaw to look for price breaks because we're so focused on points.

 

Last...those Psy Lims aren't the end of it.  Is the victim aware, in any way, of these changes?  They are at the genetic level.  I think the "OMG what am I now???" hasn't been captured at all.  You're also missing the "run away from everyone that I know" that's another essential part of this.  You're also missing some MASSIVE Hunteds that would be implicit...because every other race out there, presumably, would have Kill On Sight against any Genestealer or progeny.

 

Part 1:  if this is an all or nothing to create at least 40 points of Psy Lim...that's 12d6 to me.  I get the special effect aspect that Ego Def doesn't make sense...but is this why you're not taking the Mental Transform stuff...or are you trying to cheese the cost?  Concentration throughout on the extra time?  I don't see that.  Where's the 0 End?

 

Part 2 represents a fundamental restructuring of the victim's DNA.  OK, that's a BODY Transform by my lights.  So, to start with, you need to do 2x the BODY.  You started at 4...without recognizing the doubling aspect, that might be close.  You want to make sure that it takes a VERY bad roll for the Transform not to happen.  I'd push a little higher.  Then...double it?  9 or 10d, if you want to maintain the All or Nothing.

 

Last, there's no recovery at all.  Fine.  Pay for it.  Delayed Return Rate, 5 points per 5 years *at least*....+3 1/2.  Another at least +1 to say the transform's not affected by Regen...or is it?  Or by Healing.

 

If this costs 400 points, it costs 400 points.  It doesn't matter anyway.  This is pure, unadulterated plot device.  All you need is the time required to pull this off, and the fact the vic has to be incapacitated, because those are aspects of the plot.  Nothing else has to be particularly formal...except perhaps to cover What If?  Like, what if the vic has 20 points of Power Def?  Or 2 Body per Turn regen?  But those are corner cases that you can wing as they arise.

[knasser2]

2 hours ago, unclevlad said:

This could also be done via trickery, and anyone Entangled or deeply stunned is at risk.  Yeah, I get such a person could be killed by simpler means, but still.  

 

First, while scaling a Transform for something like this is tricky...I don't see 4d6 being *close* to enough.  

 

Seocnd...why try to make the point cost sane?  This SHOULD be insanely expensive in points, given the consequences.  IMO, it's a pretty common flaw to look for price breaks because we're so focused on points.

 

Last...those Psy Lims aren't the end of it.  Is the victim aware, in any way, of these changes?  They are at the genetic level.  I think the "OMG what am I now???" hasn't been captured at all.  You're also missing the "run away from everyone that I know" that's another essential part of this.  You're also missing some MASSIVE Hunteds that would be implicit...because every other race out there, presumably, would have Kill On Sight against any Genestealer or progeny.

 

Part 1:  if this is an all or nothing to create at least 40 points of Psy Lim...that's 12d6 to me.  I get the special effect aspect that Ego Def doesn't make sense...but is this why you're not taking the Mental Transform stuff...or are you trying to cheese the cost?  Concentration throughout on the extra time?  I don't see that.  Where's the 0 End?

 

Part 2 represents a fundamental restructuring of the victim's DNA.  OK, that's a BODY Transform by my lights.  So, to start with, you need to do 2x the BODY.  You started at 4...without recognizing the doubling aspect, that might be close.  You want to make sure that it takes a VERY bad roll for the Transform not to happen.  I'd push a little higher.  Then...double it?  9 or 10d, if you want to maintain the All or Nothing.

 

Last, there's no recovery at all.  Fine.  Pay for it.  Delayed Return Rate, 5 points per 5 years *at least*....+3 1/2.  Another at least +1 to say the transform's not affected by Regen...or is it?  Or by Healing.

 

If this costs 400 points, it costs 400 points.  It doesn't matter anyway.  This is pure, unadulterated plot device.  All you need is the time required to pull this off, and the fact the vic has to be incapacitated, because those are aspects of the plot.  Nothing else has to be particularly formal...except perhaps to cover What If?  Like, what if the vic has 20 points of Power Def?  Or 2 Body per Turn regen?  But those are corner cases that you can wing as they arise.

 

Thanks for the full reply! I appreciate it. To clear up any misconceptions, I'm the GM. Whilst it may appear I'm trying to "cheese the points cost", it's actually just me going through the power description and the modifiers trying to work out what applies. I actually have fairly limited experience with Hero and am just trying to get everything right. I don't mind if it costs a lot - Genestealers are a very high level opponent that could solo a typical Inquisitor-tier party. Hope that context helps clarify.

 

Regarding if the victim is aware of these changes. Yes, more or less. But they're okay with it. It's not deception so much as it is a fundamental change in their attitude. They suddenly feel their biological need for children and starting a family. A sort of inflicted version of turning thirty, if you will. They know that other people regard the genestealer that infected them as a monster, but it's because those other people "don't understand yet." Ditto not recognizing that their child is "special". Best way I can think to put it is that they're inflicted with a sort of "family bond" to the genestealers that doesn't interfere with their thinking, just their goals. If there's someone they're especially close to they may even try to get that person implanted to so that "they can see the light".

 

I see what you mean about 4d6 being too low. I misread the power as needing to exceed the BODY, not 2xBODY. So probably 10d6 would be about right. That way there's a chance even if the victim is pinned, it wont succeed on the first go giving a little longer to rescue the character. Part of my difficulty might be not knowing how high BODY is likely to get in a campaign. I'm mainly basing everything on the Character Ability Guidelines table in 6E1p35. But unfortunately it doesn't include BODY, STUN, END or REC so I'm a bit in the dark as to what are normal values for these at any given level of play.

 

Yes - pretty much every other faction will try to kill genestealers on sight. (Or more likely run for their life to return later with a mob). I didn't get into Hunted or similar because I anticipate a player will roll up a new character (though may want to carry on a little longer for fun if the other players don't know about the infection).

 

No, the transform shouldn't be affected by Regen unless it's something very odd that would actually "reset" the body to a previous state (can't think of anything like that in the setting). Is there any way to make this permanent other than bulk-buying Delayed Return Rate? I can estimate something for humans (although with rejuve treatments a human could live for a couple of centuries - maybe even three). But if it infected an Eldar (Space Elf), they can live for thousands of years.

 

[Grailknight]

Actually, this is an insanely cheap power.  You just have to take your time.

 

1d6 Severe Transform, Damage over Time  +1; 32 charges, +2;  Targets defenses only apply once,+2;  one charge/day , -3; 30 active points. Tack on your limitations and you've got something in the neighbor hood of 10 real points.

 

 

[knasser2]

5 minutes ago, Grailknight said:

Actually, this is an insanely cheap power.  You just have to take your time.

 

1d6 Severe Transform, Damage over Time  +1; 32 charges, +2;  Targets defenses only apply once,+2;  one charge/day , -3; 30 active points. Tack on your limitations and you've got something in the neighbor hood of 10 real points.

 

 At first I thought that would be far too slow for what it represents but on second reading, you mean the actual attack can be quick but the effect starts to manifest over a long period of time! It's never specified exactly how quickly this happens in the fluff but I like the gradual change. It seems quite fitting.

[Grailknight]

Yes, The attack hits once, but the target then takes 1d6/day for the next 32 days while only getting defense up to their  total power defense.

 

Because transform has codified rules for  how many points you can add to the target, you can use standard effect or just take average and build exact templates for changing normals into vampires, werewolves or xenos by adding a set number of points and varying  dice and onset times.

[unclevlad]

I figured you were the GM and these were high-level opponents.

 

The point that the victim's OK with this...that's a massive Mind Control.  Come on, this is a Cthulhu-esque critter assaulting you.  REVULSION goes to "oh you're my BFF!!!"  That sounds like 50 points of Mind Control *effect* right there.  Yeah, 15d6.

 

grail's notion is...sorry to be blunt, man...munchkin.  Try to make it cheap, handwave away the stuff.  It's a mindset thing.  I really hate Fantasy Hero and "oh let's pile on every limitation we possibly can" mindset because everything has to be paid for with character points, and the costing simply doesn't work very well.  That's kind of the thing here.  Hero *requires* a highly critical review.  What he's doing is a lot like abusing MegaScale by buying 2" then going MegaScale to get ridiculous range.  Charges?  Why?  One charge per day?  Why?  The fact that there's no defense after the first increment, AND that it's a completely permanent transformation, means Over Time is just a cheese factor to avoid paying for the level of effect that's gonna happen.  If there's no way to fix this once the infection starts, then the Damage Over Time is meaningless.  

 

And there's still no indication of recovery from the Transform.  His 1d6 per day?  How's that not mostly being recovered naturally?  So the 1 per day increment is meaningless.

 

NO WAY his construction is reasonable, IMO.

 

I've got no big problem if it takes a couple days for the physical transform, but that means the Mind Control has to last that long.  

 

 

 

 

[unclevlad]

BTW, grail, sorry if I'm coming across as too critical/strident.  Bad experience with things like this...a GM who said an RKA Autofire Based on ECV was allowed to do Body on its own because it was a killing attack.  And used advantages that made limitations utterly meaningless *all* the time.  

 

You're right that this is VERY much like a werewolf transformation.  (Not necessarily a vampire one...most of the time, that transformation starts with the vampire killing the victim, so the transform takes place on an object...the corpse.)  But figure...what, really, is the difference in fantasy between a troll and a werewolf?  Trolls are a major PITA to kill because they just KEEP COMING BACK!!!!  ARGH.  Werewolves take special weapons to hit, so lots of defenses too.  Probably lower damage output.  What's more feared by PCs?  The werewolf...because of the transformation risk.  So, why cheap it out?  

 

Those are all plot device aspects.  The keys are things like, what can you do to stop or reverse this?  How long do you have?  What steps to take?  BROADLY, what might prevent this?  Werewolf in D&D, the infection takes place (or not, if the save's made) immediately.  You're cursed.  There's specific conditions for countering it in the first hour, the first few days, and then later.  None of these are limitations;  IMO, the fact that the trigger's a full moon is also not worth a cost break on the Transform.

[Grailknight]

 No offense taken. I will never argue that this isn't  munchkin(This is a caution sign  modifier to a stop sign power after all.) but it is perfectly rules legal and  actually a very in concept method. As for your other concerns, the method to stop the power and to reverse the power must be defined by the builder and agreed upon by the GM. That makes finding a cure a race against time which makes for good story

 

As a GM, I wouldn't let a player have this outside of a monster campaign and it really should have invisible power effects or everyone will notice the change as it progresses(Think District 9). But as a GM , I prefer to build out most of my plot device powers just so I know that they aren't too outside campaign limits. But there's no point in building a 300 point monstrosity when the rules  allow a 50 point build that fits the concept. 

[unclevlad]

Cool.

 

We don't know the power level...and translating between systems makes this doubly hard.  He did say, this was something to face up against high-level characters, so it's not a 300 point monster.  

 

And, yes there is a point...to see, oh gee, this really is frightening.  There are occasional examples of glass cannons...monsters whose Risk is extremely high relative to their defenses.  In old D&D...the leprechaun.  Polymorph any object...for a 1 HD critter.  HUH?  And, IIRC, exceptional magic resistance but almost no physical.  Of course, your sword's now a long feather.  While it's not a physical Threat...as a challenge, it's quite a bit higher than one would anticipate.  Another, the cockatrice...that stoning attack.  Another lesson was, "It won't work very often" does not counterbalance "and...you're dead"  when it does work.

 

The point of all this is to say...recognize that the Transform is super incredibly powerful.  Honor that by not trying to cheese out the build.  If it is a 300 point monstrosity, it's a 300 point monstrosity...even if you can build it on 50. It's all too easy to lie to ourselves as players and GMs...but as a player, hopefully the GM's there to audit things.  The GM doesn't have that, so IMO has to be much more stringently compliant.  One aspect I'm so strongly against your slow, ongoing Transform is, you're taking a cheese approach while also hand-waving away quite a few problems, as I mentioned...and kind of patting yourself on the back for pulling it off.  Hey, ok, if you have to hand wave on one point, that can be ok...but so many aspects?  No.  Don't do that.  That's too much like the path the GM took that I'd mentioned, where he'd make something that legitimately cost 600 points, but ignore this, fudge that...and admire his own cleverness for squeezing 600 points of combat powers onto a 350 point villain. 

[knasser2]

18 hours ago, Grailknight said:

Yes, The attack hits once, but the target then takes 1d6/day for the next 32 days while only getting defense up to their  total power defense.

 

Because transform has codified rules for  how many points you can add to the target, you can use standard effect or just take average and build exact templates for changing normals into vampires, werewolves or xenos by adding a set number of points and varying  dice and onset times.

 

I thought this over and realised it didn't work. The effect really needs to kick in much more quickly. It would be fine if the urges to go away and breed crept up over the next couple of weeks, but the character needs to become accepting of the Genestealer far more rapidly. I'm also inclined to agree with unclevlad, whether it's legitimate, that it's far too cheap. Not so much for the effect on the victim because as I've pointed out, you could probably kill them as easily, but for the benefit to the attacker. It's effectively a way to create a loyal supporter with a uncapped level of personal power.

[knasser2]

15 hours ago, unclevlad said:

Cool.

 

We don't know the power level...and translating between systems makes this doubly hard.  He did say, this was something to face up against high-level characters, so it's not a 300 point monster.  

 

And, yes there is a point...to see, oh gee, this really is frightening.  There are occasional examples of glass cannons...monsters whose Risk is extremely high relative to their defenses.  In old D&D...the leprechaun.  Polymorph any object...for a 1 HD critter.  HUH?  And, IIRC, exceptional magic resistance but almost no physical.  Of course, your sword's now a long feather.  While it's not a physical Threat...as a challenge, it's quite a bit higher than one would anticipate.  Another, the cockatrice...that stoning attack.  Another lesson was, "It won't work very often" does not counterbalance "and...you're dead"  when it does work.

 

The point of all this is to say...recognize that the Transform is super incredibly powerful.  Honor that by not trying to cheese out the build.  If it is a 300 point monstrosity, it's a 300 point monstrosity...even if you can build it on 50. It's all too easy to lie to ourselves as players and GMs...but as a player, hopefully the GM's there to audit things.  The GM doesn't have that, so IMO has to be much more stringently compliant.  One aspect I'm so strongly against your slow, ongoing Transform is, you're taking a cheese approach while also hand-waving away quite a few problems, as I mentioned...and kind of patting yourself on the back for pulling it off.  Hey, ok, if you have to hand wave on one point, that can be ok...but so many aspects?  No.  Don't do that.  That's too much like the path the GM took that I'd mentioned, where he'd make something that legitimately cost 600 points, but ignore this, fudge that...and admire his own cleverness for squeezing 600 points of combat powers onto a 350 point villain. 

 

Thanks for this. It gives me a better understanding of the sort of things I have to be on guard for as a GM with this system.

[massey]

Transform is cumulative by default.  I'd go with the basic 4D6, and just require that the Genestealer sit there and keep hitting you with it.  Think of it cinematically.

 

Phase 3 -- The Genestealer moves out of the shadows towards the unsuspecting crewman.  Rolls its Stealth at 14-, rolls an 11.  The crewman rolls his Perception of 11-, gets a 9.  He thinks he hears something for a moment, then shakes his head.  "Nah."  The Genestealer gets within half-move range.

 

Phase 5 -- The Genestealer rushes forward and attacks.  The crewman makes another Perception roll.  This time he makes it.  He turns around with a panicked look on his face.  He gets his full DCV.  It's a 3.  The Genestealer (OCV 9) attempts a grab.  -1 OCV for the grab maneuver, it needs a 16 or less to hit.  It rolls a 12 and hits.  The Genestealer has a Str of 25.  The crewman has a Str of 10.  They roll dice and compare Body.  The Genestealer wins.  It slams the crewman into the bulkhead.  One massive claw grips him by the throat.  Another grasps him across the chest and pinning his left arm by his side.  The alien's third arm grabs his right wrist, applying pressure and forcing him to drop the mop he was holding just a moment before.  The fourth claw grabs his jaw and begins forcing it open.

 

Phase 8 -- The Genestealer makes a Presence attack.  It has a base of 5D6 for its 25 Pre.  The GM gives it +3D6 for attacking from surprise, another 2D6 for having an overwhelming advantage, and +1D6 more for a good "soliloquy".  The Genestealer leans in close, its slimy tongue licking the crewman's face.  It opens its mouth as wide as possible, then chomps its teeth in the air inches away from the man's eyes.  The Genestealer rolls 11D6, getting a total of 40.  This is 30 past the crewman's Pre of 10.  He is petrified, and will not struggle.  He wets his pants and cries out for the Emperor to save him.  His eyes are wide with terror.  He's incapacitated for at least the next turn.  The Genestealer maintains the grab, and starts to implant its seed.

 

The GM consults the book to see if the Presence attack counts as an "action", or if the 'stealer has to wait until phase 10 to implant.  The player and the GM argue for a while.

 

Phase 10 -- The GM tells the player to shut up.  The Genestealer begins the implantation process.  Its long tongue slithers down the throat of the crewman.  He is too scared to resist.  The Genestealer maintains its grab.

 

Fast forward one turn.

 

Phase 10 (Turn 2) -- The Genestealer player rolls 4D6 to determine how much Body is done by the Transform.  He rolls a 12.  The crewman can feel something happening inside of him.  The GM rules this is enough to snap him out of the mortal terror.  He can now struggle.  He rolls 2D6 for his attempt to break the grab.  He gets 2 Body.  The Genestealer rolls 5D6 and gets 5 Body.  The man cannot escape.

 

Phase 12 (Turn 2) -- The man lets out a muffled scream (he does have a tongue down his throat).  The Genestealer's process is not yet complete.  It needs more time.  The Genestealer attempts the Transform again.  The man attempts to break out.  He fails again.

 

Phase 6 (Turn 3) -- The man gives one last valiant effort to escape.  He tries to push his Str.  Since this is a heroic game, he gets +5 Str, +1 for every point he makes his Ego roll.  He rolls a 12.  He fails to push, and rolls another 2 Body.  He feels a shoulder muscle pull.

 

Phase 12 (Turn 3) -- The Genestealer rolls its Transform again.  The man is about to attempt another escape, readying himself for one last life-saving push.  The Genestealer rolls 4D6, getting a 13.  The Body total is now 25, more than double the crewman's 10 Body.  Suddenly, the man stops struggling.  It all makes sense now...

[unclevlad]

That sequence works nicely for me, massey.  Plays up the prime aspect...the horrific nature of this beastie.  

 

As a thought in this approach, toss in a straightforward Drain, targeting Ego, PRE, or both.  He can't fight back.  After the poor vic's been hosed 6 ways to Sunday, NOW you can throw in a relatively small, cumulative Mind Control and build it to sick levels.  The impact here would be the Mind Control on its own wouldn't be strong enough to do much against anyone who wasn't brain-drained.

 

This is now very nicely cinematic....BUT.  If there is to be an effective difference between this all taking several turns, and everything just happening all at once more or less (a few phases rather than turns)...there's got to be a way that this wears off, or can be reversed, at least until the whole sequence is complete.  Which really is OK.  I don't know the source material, but it sounds like it takes the vic and remains...discreetly, generally quietly.  Fine;  this gives regular opportunity to reinforce both the transform and the mind control.  The vic won't fight as long as the reinforcement's regular enough...buy Delayed Recovery (5/day) or something and you're good...and say that after a couple weeks the process has become permanent.  Sure feels like this is consistent with the critter's WH40K presentation.  It should be feasible with no major rules mangling, and feels internally consistent.

[massey]

As far as the source material goes, think the movie Alien.  When the Genestealer gets you, you're as good as facehuggered.  Only instead of having a critter burst out of your chest, you just go off and settle down and have babies.  Precious little C.H.U.D.-looking babies.  And you keep them safe, because of course you do.  The rest of society just wouldn't love your little babies the same way you do.

 

You and your fellow recipients of the Genestealer's "gift" will go off and form a cult.  Something that sounds kinda weird, but not that abnormal.  "The Church of Our Wondrous Embracing Savior".  And it's kinda like the local religion, but in a quietly creepy horror movie kind of way.  And you are going to raise your offspring.  And they're going to have offspring.  And surprisingly, each generation looks more and more human, until they're almost indistinguishable (almost).  And one of these will be the new cult leader.  He'll develop powerful psionic abilities, the better to "spread the true word".  And the generation after that?  Purebred Genestealers, who can infect more people.

 

Of course what none of them know is that the cult is really just a beacon.  The growing psionic signature from the cult attracts a ravenous swarm of Starship Troopers-style space bugs.  They intend to eat the planet, every last microbe.  When the Hive Fleet approaches, the Genestealer Cult feels an irresistable urge to go out and cause chaos.  They become a doomsday cult, blowing up bridges, assassinating important people, preparing the world for the coming of the Great Devourer.

[knasser2]

11 hours ago, massey said:

Transform is cumulative by default.  I'd go with the basic 4D6, and just require that the Genestealer sit there and keep hitting you with it.  Think of it cinematically.

 

Phase 3 -- The Genestealer moves out of the shadows towards the unsuspecting crewman.  Rolls its Stealth at 14-, rolls an 11.  The crewman rolls his Perception of 11-, gets a 9.  He thinks he hears something for a moment, then shakes his head.  "Nah."  The Genestealer gets within half-move range.

 

Phase 5 -- The Genestealer rushes forward and attacks.  The crewman makes another Perception roll.  This time he makes it.  He turns around with a panicked look on his face.  He gets his full DCV.  It's a 3.  The Genestealer (OCV 9) attempts a grab.  -1 OCV for the grab maneuver, it needs a 16 or less to hit.  It rolls a 12 and hits.  The Genestealer has a Str of 25.  The crewman has a Str of 10.  They roll dice and compare Body.  The Genestealer wins.  It slams the crewman into the bulkhead.  One massive claw grips him by the throat.  Another grasps him across the chest and pinning his left arm by his side. 

 

This person gets genestealers!

 

11 hours ago, massey said:

The alien's third arm grabs his right wrist, applying pressure and forcing him to drop the mop he was holding just a moment before.  

 

This person gets 40K! In the 41st Millenium, lonely, steel spaceship corridors are still swabbed down by tired men with mops.

 

11 hours ago, massey said:

The player and the GM argue for a while.

 

This person gets Hero!

 

11 hours ago, massey said:

Phase 10 -- The GM tells the player to shut up. 

 

This person gets my GM'ing style!

 

Great post. Very helpful and totally the atmosphere I'm going for. 'Stealers are the Xenomorph from Alien, for people who thought it wasn't creepy enough. Presence attack is a nice touch. I'll let it use that.

[knasser2]

9 hours ago, massey said:

Of course what none of them know is that the cult is really just a beacon.  The growing psionic signature from the cult attracts a ravenous swarm of Starship Troopers-style space bugs.  They intend to eat the planet, every last microbe.  When the Hive Fleet approaches, the Genestealer Cult feels an irresistable urge to go out and cause chaos.  They become a doomsday cult, blowing up bridges, assassinating important people, preparing the world for the coming of the Great Devourer.

 

Leave it to 40K to take a scenario where people are abducted, implanted with alien DNA and then made part of a creepy cult and ask themselves how they can make it even more horrible... "Oh, I know - lets add a bit of horrified realisation when they find that the star gods they've been worshiping are rounding them up for the digestion pits with everyone else."

[zslane]

On 6/24/2018 at 1:51 PM, knasser2 said:

 

I actually have fairly limited experience with Hero and am just trying to get everything right. I don't mind if it costs a lot - Genestealers are a very high level opponent that could solo a typical Inquisitor-tier party.

 

 

As someone once said a long time ago on the old Red October BBS, "Silly wabbit, points are for players." Don't worry about the point cost for this; in fact, I don't think you even need a power-based write up at all. A purely descriptive one will do.

 

After all, since there is no treatment/cure for this, I'd say there's no point in going through the effort to work up all the Hero System mechanics that will be involved. If a genestealer hits with this attack it is, as you say, "game over" for that PC, and you might as well just tell the player to hand over the character sheet right then and there. What happens thereafter is purely narrative and not really subject to further game play, unless you want the player to roleplay the withdrawal from the society, the finding of a mate, and the raising of his or her hybrid offspring. But that's just asking the player to play (what has become) an NPC at that point, right?

[unclevlad]

36 minutes ago, zslane said:

 

As someone once said a long time ago on the old Red October BBS, "Silly wabbit, points are for players." Don't worry about the point cost for this; in fact, I don't think you even need a power-based write up at all. A purely descriptive one will do.

 

After all, since there is no treatment/cure for this, I'd say there's no point in going through the effort to work up all the Hero System mechanics that will be involved. If a genestealer hits with this attack it is, as you say, "game over" for that PC, and you might as well just tell the player to hand over the character sheet right then and there. What happens thereafter is purely narrative and not really subject to further game play, unless you want the player to roleplay the withdrawal from the society, the finding of a mate, and the raising of his or her hybrid offspring. But that's just asking the player to play (what has become) an NPC at that point, right?

 

The only reason to stat it out is to recognize its relative power.  At least roughly.  A point you bring up...IS this something that will ever target a PC?  The attack impact is so overwhelming that you don't want to.  This works way better as the hook...friend of a friend suddenly goes off, becoming a loner, withdrawing, major personality shift, all that sorta stuff.  PCs' job is to investigate, then eradicate.  The attack here won't come into play because the 'stealer is gonna be RUNNING!  It'll be trying to kill the PCs, and probably shouldn't even think about adding to its brood.  Takes too long.  Goal is to get away, with some remnant of its existing brood if possible, but if not, they're replaceable.  Somewhere else.  With less heat.  Everything posted here says, 'stealers are seriously risk-averse and selfish.  Alignment:  Chaotic Evil Cowardly.

 

And from the sound of it, this is the intent even in WH40K.  It's not really intended that the PCs might become a victim.

[zslane]

In that case, I'm not sure what the point is of writing it up at all, except as an academic exercise in building powers. The "relative power" of it is immaterial if it will never be used against PCs in normal play.

[knasser2]

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The only reason to stat it out is to recognize its relative power. 

 

There's also simply learning the system (which I am currently doing) and that I want to share this supplement with other people. For it to be maximally useful, I want to have the powers properly written up.

3 hours ago, unclevlad said:

The attack here won't come into play because the 'stealer is gonna be RUNNING!  It'll be trying to kill the PCs, and probably shouldn't even think about adding to its brood.  Takes too long.  Goal is to get away, with some remnant of its existing brood if possible, but if not, they're replaceable.  Somewhere else.  With less heat.  Everything posted here says, 'stealers are seriously risk-averse and selfish.  Alignment:  Chaotic Evil Cowardly.

 

Actually, they're fearsomely aggressive. They're essentially the WH40K version of the Xenomorph from Aliens. Yes - they use Stealth and strike and withdraw. But not really to run away, more to just keep stalking the rest one by one, picking them up. They hide rather than run unless the odds are really against them. They're absolute monsters in HTH and use the stealth to get close without getting shot more than because they're cowardly.

 

2 hours ago, zslane said:

In that case, I'm not sure what the point is of writing it up at all, except as an academic exercise in building powers. The "relative power" of it is immaterial if it will never be used against PCs in normal play.

 

I absolutely do intend there be a chance of the genestealer using its power on a PC. I alluded to it earlier when I said I expected a player to roll up a new character if it happened, but with the possibility that they'll carry on playing this one for a bit if the other players don't know they're infected.

[unclevlad]

Then you HAVE to examine the cost and see if this is reasonable.  No, you can't just say, I blew your character out of the water with my DM power to build whatever I want.  DEAL WITH IT.  Me?  I'd probably walk.

 

How do you envision this encounter developing?  What's the situation that brings the PCs into contact/conflict with the 'stealer?  Do they have a chance to say No, we're going elsewhere...or at least, to get some info to understand what they may be getting into?  

 

Otherwise, it feels too likely to be an execution, and that is simply not fair.

[knasser2]

13 minutes ago, unclevlad said:

Then you HAVE to examine the cost and see if this is reasonable.  No, you can't just say, I blew your character out of the water with my DM power to build whatever I want.  DEAL WITH IT.  Me?  I'd probably walk.

 

How do you envision this encounter developing?  What's the situation that brings the PCs into contact/conflict with the 'stealer?  Do they have a chance to say No, we're going elsewhere...or at least, to get some info to understand what they may be getting into?  

 

Otherwise, it feels too likely to be an execution, and that is simply not fair.

 

I run games where people die. I'm for players who like to have to be smart, who like to know they're up against something nasty and who like to feel they've achieved something when they beat me. It's not for everyone, but then what is? The way I figure it is if the creature could as easily kill the player then they're not any worse off if they lose their character some other way. In fact, as I've written this it's considerably harder to pull this off than to simply kill them. Their team mates will have chances to rescue them that they wouldn't if it just slit their throat.

 

It's really going to depend on the GM what circumstances they use genestealers in - I intend to share the WH40K conversion when I've done it all (currently about a third of the way through them). But for myself, I have an adventure in mind where there's a single Genestealer purestrain in part of the underhive (A hive is a megacity, an underhive the lawless lower reaches of it). They'll be investigating a growing cult. If they're reasonably smart, they'll have a good chance to prepare for their final attempt to purge the cult. E.g. obtaining better weapons, roping in some NPCs to help with the hunt, creating some maps of the tunnels with the help of local gangers, etc. It's entirely possible some of them get picked off one by one. If it gets down to a single PC stalking alone through the underhive, playing cat and mouse with a wounded genestealer for the sake of the city, that's going to be about as tense as it gets.

[zslane]

Hey, it could be a lot worse...it could be an "historical" scenario, and the PCs are stuck on Macragge when Hive Fleet Behemoth attacks...

[massey]

1 hour ago, unclevlad said:

Then you HAVE to examine the cost and see if this is reasonable.  No, you can't just say, I blew your character out of the water with my DM power to build whatever I want.  DEAL WITH IT.  Me?  I'd probably walk.

 

How do you envision this encounter developing?  What's the situation that brings the PCs into contact/conflict with the 'stealer?  Do they have a chance to say No, we're going elsewhere...or at least, to get some info to understand what they may be getting into?  

 

Otherwise, it feels too likely to be an execution, and that is simply not fair.

 

If the players are familiar with 40K, they will know what the Genestealer is and treat it with the appropriate amount of caution.  If he's talking about running an Inquisitor level game, then letting a Genestealer get into hand to hand is a potential total party kill.  And the players should know that going in.

 

If the Genestealer gets the character in a position where he can use the Transform, then he already could have torn the character to pieces anyway.