Still Confused By UBO

[iamlibertarian]

Let's take Grenades for example: 

So not a single grenade example given in the various 6E books I have looked at so far have UOO as part of their effects. Scenario: Group of PC SHIELD (Marvel) agents go on a mission to take down some NPC HYDRA agents. The SHIELD agents lock and load, including some flashbangs and smoke grenades, and head out. Doesn't matter who grabs which grenades, they can all use them, even without any version of UOO used on those grenades.

How is that different from a PC Gadgeteer creating some Grenades in the field? Does the Gadgeteer have to use some form of UOO, or can said Gadgeteer make them and hand them out without UOO of some sort? And if not, why not?

Thanks in advance for your help!
DC :)

[JmOz]

Reread the focus limitation, I think that will help you

 

Gadgeteer has a few grenades, decided to give a couple to his teammate.  No problem, covered by the focus limitation

 

Monster Maker, a hero who can transform others into monsters needs UBO to grant demon wings to his teammate.  

[iamlibertarian]

Thanks JmOz. That does help some.

But to take it further... 6 SHIELD Agents grab a bandolier of 5 grenades each before heading out of their base. 30 Grenades of varying types.

Gadgeteer in the field named Grenadier, that's his specialty, pulls out his grenade making kit, makes 12 grenades in the field between battles (only 2 per Agent), specializes to what he has learned is effective against the current crop of HYDRA agents they are fighting. Battle #2 takes place, but some HYDRA agents escape. Grenadier pulls out his kit again and makes another 12 (2 each again)  just before battle #3. Maybe technically within the rules, but is that something a GM is going to allow?

And to speak to your example of Monster Maker more directly, let's say that Gadgeteer named Monster Maker doesn't just 'poof grant' demon wings to his teammate... Lets say he has the materials to make a jet pack (focused item) for a teammate (or more). Is this different and allowable just because there is a focus involved?

Thanks again! Really trying to get it, lol.

[Lord Liaden]

Well, to start with, equipment like grenades is handled differently in superheroic-level games, versus heroic-level ones. In the latter the builds for equipment show how those items are designed and what their in-game effects are, but characters don't normally invest any of their Character Points to buy them. They get them with money or some other supplying agency, and the fact they can be used by anyone is their default state.

 

In superheroic games characters invest Character Points into any personal equipment they always want to have on them or have access to. If that includes something they can use up over time, like a set number of grenades, paying Character Points means they have a reasonably easy way to always get replacements for them.

 

Such items as grenades are usually built using the Focus Limitation, implying their Powers are contained in some object discreet from the character's own body; but a Focus can either be Universal or Personal. A Personal Focus can't be used by anyone but the character who bought it; even if taken away from that character, whoever took it can't access its abilities. A Universal Focus, as its name implies, can be used by whoever has it.

 

The difference between types of Focus isn't reflected in their cost, because the benefits and drawbacks balance each other out. Grenades are usually Universal Foci, and as you say, someone with those could hand them out to his allies; but an enemy could also take them away from their owning character and use them against him.

 

UBO is normally reserved for personal Powers a character has and controls himself, but wants to lend to someone else temporarily, e.g. someone with the power of Flight who can choose to share that power with others.

[eepjr24]

Some light reading:

 

6e1, 412

Quote

This doesn’t mean a character can use a VPP as a cheap way to buy a lot of weapons or gadgets and then hand them out to his friends. There can still only be as many powers active in the VPP at once as its Pool allows. Losing a weapon or gadget bought through the VPP doesn’t count as “using” it, but giving the weapon or device to another character does.

 

6e1, 380

Quote

If the character makes his Focus Universal, then other characters can use it without special requirements. Most realistic Foci like guns, other weapons, and common technological devices are Universal Foci. The advantage and disadvantage to a Universal Focus is that other characters can use it. But remember, Focus is not the Usable On Others Advantage; characters shouldn’t be  allowed to buy abilities through Universal Foci then routinely loan those Foci to other characters.

Also remember that what's good for the goose is good for the gander. If your team mates can use them, so can your enemies.

 

Also check out 6e1, 32, the entire page. And 6e2, 180-181.

 

- E

[Lord Liaden]

15 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

Thanks JmOz. That does help some.

But to take it further... 6 SHIELD Agents grab a bandolier of 5 grenades each before heading out of their base. 30 Grenades of varying types.

Gadgeteer in the field named Grenadier, that's his specialty, pulls out his grenade making kit, makes 12 grenades in the field between battles (only 2 per Agent), specializes to what he has learned is effective against the current crop of HYDRA agents they are fighting. Battle #2 takes place, but some HYDRA agents escape. Grenadier pulls out his kit again and makes another 12 (2 each again)  just before battle #3. Maybe technically within the rules, but is that something a GM is going to allow?

And to speak to your example of Monster Maker more directly, let's say that Gadgeteer named Monster Maker doesn't just 'poof grant' demon wings to his teammate... Lets say he has the materials to make a jet pack (focused item) for a teammate (or more). Is this different and allowable just because there is a focus involved?

Thanks again! Really trying to get it, lol.

 

For the examples you describe, the implication is that the character is making these things out of some type of materials. Any GM considering allowing that ability is going to be looking at an Expendable Focus. That means the character has to have the materials on hand to make whatever it is, and if the product of those materials is used up he'll have to get more materials before he can produce more of it. Getting those materials can be quite difficult, depending on the circumstances the character finds himself in, or how rare the GM makes them.

[Lord Liaden]

Also keep in mind that in the supers genre, whatever the character makes to give to his friends, if they want to keep it permanently they'll have to invest their own Character Points to buy it. Otherwise the GM is pretty much required to contrive some way for them to eventually lose it.

[JmOz]

A lot of this is also GM Territory.  If the Grenadier's thing is making grenades for his allies (instead of occasionally sharing them) n some GM's will say UBO, some won't

 

If you are able to build them in the field, then technicality you are looking at the ability to make grenades as the focus instead of the grenades themselves (IMO) so should use UBO (the grenades are a f/x).  Now if it has the charges limitation (to me anyways) that changes it so you can split them up...

[JmOz]

A great example of this is actually JLA/Avengers #4.  Captain America gives Superman his shield, we all know Supes isn't going to keep it, but for a limited time he gets to use Cap's shield (and Thor's hammer, which would be breaking the foci rules).

 

One note about Personal foci, others CAN use them in rare circumstances (your evil clone from another universe, someone who is also a son of Zeus, etc...)

[iamlibertarian]

Lord Liaden, thanks, those replies too are very helpful. So a GM might Make such an ability as to create more grenades require expendable foci, even if the player didn't originally intend to use that limitation? If so, ok, that makes sense. So if All of the grenades are made back 'at base' and not in the field, it might be reasonable that said gadgeteer just Happens to be the source of those grenades, rather than some overshrouding 'agency' like just grabbing them from the SHIELD bases who supplies them as needed.

As anyone who even remembers any of my questions in the past, I am all about (into) Superhero Mages, so that might apply to potions as well...

[JmOz]

Definitely on potions. 

 

Also remember special effects are king

 

The Shield Agent probably has his own VPP, representing items from SHIELD.  he is not making the gadget, just has access to  them.  

 

The Universal Foci rules are for the rare instance when Batman gives the flash a smoke grenade as part of a tactic, not so he can outfit Robin with them (Robin has his own UT Belt with the F/X of  getting them from Batman)

[Lord Liaden]

JmOz makes a good point. If the Grenadier can make grenades at any time, out of anything, and is always able to give them to his comrades, that would require UBO, and may not even take a Focus Limitation on the grenades, but might on the "grenade-making kit" if that can be taken away from the character. That could get really expensive in Character Points for the Grenadier; but in Hero System you get what you pay for, and pay for what you get.

[Lord Liaden]

Another route to simulate an ability like the Grenadier's, especially if it borders on the magical for a particular character,  might be to use Transform to change some other object(s) into the desired ones. If the product is something with a powerful effect, that could also get quite expensive in CP.

 

In Hero System there's almost always more than one rules-legal way to build something. One way may happen to suit your preferences better than another.

[JmOz]

 

4 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Another route to simulate an ability like the Grenadier's, especially if it borders on the magical for a particular character,  might be to use Transform to change some other object(s) into the desired ones. If the product is something with a powerful effect, that could also get quite expensive in CP.

 

In Hero System there's almost always more than one rules-legal way to build something. One way may happen to suit your preferences better than another.

 

Also, as a GM, I realize that I had to ditch the "Most expensive is the right way" rule...I can build a power that does what a 1d6 Blast does for 20 points, or destroy the world for the same cost.  Obviously the wrong ways...You should be asking "Is this priced appropriately for it's utility".

 

Giving every player extra power constantly, at no lack of ability to the main character is powerful, and should be expensive.  Giving up some of your combat ability to help a teammate is fairly balanced...

[iamlibertarian]

15 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

Some light reading:

16 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

This doesn’t mean a character can use a VPP as a cheap way to buy a lot of weapons or gadgets and then hand them out to his friends. There can still only be as many powers active in the VPP at once as its Pool allows. Losing a weapon or gadget bought through the VPP doesn’t count as “using” it, but giving the weapon or device to another character does.

 

Thanks E. Useful. Now if the Gadgeteer (using a VPP) can make 12 Charges in one 'use' of the power, especially of a Triggered item (such as a grenade), and the items are handed out, he can still switch out that grenade in the pool to some other power without the already created grenades (poof) going away, right? He just can't make more (i.e. can't reclaim those CPs) until those grenades are returned or used up or the like?

[JmOz]

In play, most GM's will say the powers given out are still "in play" for the VPP....at least I would...

[iamlibertarian]

33 minutes ago, eepjr24 said:

But remember, Focus is not the Usable On Others Advantage; characters shouldn’t be  allowed to buy abilities through Universal Foci then routinely loan those Foci to other characters.

So its ok if the SHIELD Base hands out a dozen grenades before each battle (GM controlled), as long as it isn't a character choosing to do it, right?
 

[JmOz]

Anything the GM decides to give is fine by definition

 

RE SHIELD

 

Stop thinking about Shield as being the source of the grenades, that is an F/X

 

Nick Fury has a VPP (SHIELD Armory) on his character sheet.  When he grabs a few grenades they are coming from that.  

[JmOz]

Players have to be monitored for how often they give their foci to friends...if the GM feels it is excessive then he should make them pay for UBO.

 

In my new game the players have a patron, who is a retired Batman like hero.  One character has a VPP and can use it to hit up his old armory.  The other three do not so can't.  Two of the others do have a UT Belt and can add slots representing adding gear from the old cave, but can't change it out.

 

If the VPP hero (Bandit) wants to, she could give up some of her VPP to the other players occasionally, or buy the gadget with UBO to represent sharing constantly (Carries extra gas masks for instance).  this has already come up once (One team member does not have a radio)

[iamlibertarian]

13 minutes ago, Lord Liaden said:

Another route to simulate an ability like the Grenadier's, especially if it borders on the magical for a particular character,  might be to use Transform to change some other object(s) into the desired ones. If the product is something with a powerful effect, that could also get quite expensive in CP.

I like that idea a lot (at least from my perspective of having a Wizard who makes several one-use items for teammates (I like making support characters). With Transform the character could make a lot of very low powered items (like replacement bullets for standard weapons), a handful of low level items, like low powered grenades,  or 1 or 2 higher powered grenades (or whatever), all the while in each case tying up the VPP with an expensive Transform?

[iamlibertarian]

14 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Giving every player extra power constantly, at no lack of ability to the main character is powerful, and should be expensive.  Giving up some of your combat ability to help a teammate is fairly balanced...

 

Fair... I don't mind paying the price if something is useful. I am more concerned with the 'can I' and the 'how' of making something fit the character concept.

[eepjr24]

If you are the GM, don't bother with the mechanics of a friends wizard who makes things for the party. Just give them to them and when they are gone they are gone.

 

If you are not the GM and this is a heroic campaign, also have the GM take a look at APG 1, pg 191 "Resource Points". I use this in lower powered games to good effect.

 

- E

[eepjr24]

It would help some if you would tell us if you are the player or the GM in this case?

 

- E

[iamlibertarian]

8 minutes ago, JmOz said:

Stop thinking about Shield as being the source of the grenades, that is an F/X

 

Nick Fury has a VPP (SHIELD Armory) on his character sheet.  When he grabs a few grenades they are coming from that.  

Maybe that is where I am going wrong with my thinking... you could be right. I suppose that if 'grenades' (or whatever) isn't within Nick's VPP, but the story calls for him having said grenade, SHIELD could in rare circumstances grant it, SHIELD just being an NPC and lending said item (i.e. GM moving the story forward, but not being a regular thing...

[JmOz]

4 minutes ago, iamlibertarian said:

Maybe that is where I am going wrong with my thinking... you could be right. I suppose that if 'grenades' (or whatever) isn't within Nick's VPP, but the story calls for him having said grenade, SHIELD could in rare circumstances grant it, SHIELD just being an NPC and lending said item (i.e. GM moving the story forward, but not being a regular thing...

 

Exactly, but as a VPP based on SHIELD armory, grenades is a no brainer.  

 

This is Bandit's VPP

 

Equipment Pool:  Variable Power Pool, 40 base + 30 control cost, Powers Can Be Changed As A Zero-Phase Action (+1), No Skill Roll Required (+1) (85 Active Points); Maximum of 15 Real Points (-1/2), Armory Based (-1/4), Only Found Ultra Tech (-1/4), Kit Load (-1/4)

 

Nick would have something similar, probably just Armory and Kit load limitations

 

As for your concept, as I understand it.  I would use UBO with the potions being an F/X, as it seems your goal is to give powers out, not to have them yourself and occasionally loan them out