Potential Campaign Pitfalls

[assault]

There is still a problem with defenses. If CVs are dropped to levels comparable to those possessed by agents, heroes (PCs) are going to be hit more often.

 

That's fine if they are bullet proof. Not so fine if they aren't.

 

This leads us back into concept superiority territory. Rational players (moderate minmaxers) will tend to pick high defense concepts.

[Hugh Neilson]

In the comics, the low defense characters tend to have higher CVs.  When the agents have OCV 4 and, say, 6d6 Blasters (if the Supers are firing 8-9d6), then a DCV of 7 for that DareDevil character or 18 defenses for a 4 DCV Brick will both be pretty effective against agents.

 

Especially when our DD character gets two actions (4 SPD) for every one the agents (2 SPD) take, and that 2 SPD Brick uses his mighty Strength to scatter the agents with a Shockwave (acquired with the 50 or so points he saved on DEX, CV and SPD).

[assault]

3 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

In the comics, the low defense characters tend to have higher CVs.  When the agents have OCV 4 and, say, 6d6 Blasters (if the Supers are firing 8-9d6), then a DCV of 7 for that DareDevil character or 18 defenses for a 4 DCV Brick will both be pretty effective against agents.

 

The agents hit on an 8-. Roughly 25% of the time.

 

How many agents are there?

[Greywind]

Zero. We took them all out on the way in.

[Hugh Neilson]

19 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

In the comics, the low defense characters tend to have higher CVs.  When the agents have OCV 4 and, say, 6d6 Blasters (if the Supers are firing 8-9d6), then a DCV of 7 for that DareDevil character or 18 defenses for a 4 DCV Brick will both be pretty effective against agents.

 

Especially when our DD character gets two actions (4 SPD) for every one the agents (2 SPD) take, and that 2 SPD Brick uses his mighty Strength to scatter the agents with a Shockwave (acquired with the 50 or so points he saved on DEX, CV and SPD).

 

15 hours ago, assault said:

 

The agents hit on an 8-. Roughly 25% of the time.

 

How many agents are there?

 

How many do you typically see?  Let's parse it out. 

DD is hitting for 8d6 with OCV and DCV 7 and is SPD 4, 8 defenses and 30 STUN, with 8 REC and 15 CON. 

Brick is hitting for 9 DC with  OCV and DCV 4, 18 defenses, 50 STUN, and has 15 REC and 23 CON. 

Blaster is firing off 9 DC Blasts with OCV and DCV 5, 15 defenses and 40 STUN at 3 SPD, REC 12, 18 CON. 

 

The agents have 6d6 Blasters, 6 defenses, 4 OCV and DCV and 25 STUN  They get 13 CON and 5 REC.  We've established they are SPD 2.

Let's put 5 in for each Super, largely ignore knockback, range and tactics and start on Ph 12.  I've located a dice roller online so let's see what happens...

 

DD moves first, so he smacks one agent for 8d6, rolls 10 to hit and 34 damage.  Agent is at -10 and KOd

Blaster fires on an agent, rolls a 7 to hit and 30 damage, so that agent takes 24 and is Stunned.

Brick rolls 15 to hit - oh well.

 

I'll pick the best 4 rolls in a row for DD out of the next 12.  That's 10, 7, 4, 9 so he gets hit twice because the GM is cherry picking to hit him.  Damage is 21 and 15, so he has taken 13 + 9 = 22.

They roll 11,14,9,11 to hit Blaster and needed a 10, so one hit for 24, 9 past defenses

 

Brick's agents roll 10,13,12,7,7 so 3 hits for 23, 20 and 23, total of 12 STUN past defenses

 

PS 12  - only DD is still down any STUN, 14 (well, 2 agents are still down STUN).

 

Ph 3, DD moves - hits another agent - 14 to hit, just barely, 31 damage gets 26 through and KOs him

Ph 4, Blaster rolls 11 to hit, 38 damage, so 33 past defenses - KOd

 

Ph 6 - DD rolls 8 to hit, 21 damage, target is stunned

Brick rolls 10 and hits for 33, 28 past defenses, KO

DD has two KOd agents and one Stunned.  The others roll 11 and 14, no hits

Blaster has one KOd and one Stunned, and the others roll 14,10,7 so two hits for 18 and 22, 10 STUN past defenses

Brick faces four shots, 9,11,8,13 so 3 hits for 15,20,20,26 - 12 past defenses

 

Ph 8:  Blaster rolls a 12 - just hit - and 34 STUN, 29 past defenses for a KO

Ph 9:  DD rolls 10 to hit, 21 damage, stunning a target not hit before

Ph 12:  DD has three remaining attackers - he risks striking one, rolls 12 and 21 so 15 past defenses and KOs a wounded attacker

Blaster rolls 11 to hit, 30 damage, taking an agent to 0 STUN

Brick rolls a 14 to hit...

DD has one stunned and 2 KOd opponents.  The other two roll 7 and 12, one hit for 15 so he is now down 21 of his 30 STUN

Blaster is attacked twice with a 9 and 16 to hit - one hit for 20 damage, so he's now down 15 of 40

Brick's five opponents roll 10,11,13,9,6 so four hits for 20,26,21,18 - 13 STUN and he is down 25

 

PS 12 leaves DD down 13 of his 30 STUN, Blaster down 3 of 40 and Brick down 10 of 50

Both of DD's KOd opponents are back to positive STUN so he has 5 opponents

Blaster's KOd opponents are also back up, so everyone has 5 opponents again.

 

Phase 3, DD rolls 13 to hit, 21 damage, so 15 past defenses taking an agent to -6 STUN

Ph 4, Blaster Blasts 9 to hit, 30 damage, taking his one uninjured attacker to 0 STUN

Ph 6, with four opponents, DD decides to delay

Brick rolls a 7 to hit - FINALLY - and 30 damage KOs a previously uninjured agent

DD asks for one attack at a time, as he may decide to Dodge - 15, 13, 7 and 15 damage - 10 STUN left and one attacker; he gambles and a 14 roll misses.

DD now strikes, rolls a 12 and does 21 STUN, taking an agent to -11

Blaster is attacked four times 8,6,11,11 so 2 hits for 19 and 24, 13 past defenses leaves him down 16 of 40

Four shots on Brick - 15,7,14,10 for 2 hits of 23 and 18, 5 damage so he's down 15 of 50

 

Ph 8, Blaster Blasts, 4 to hit and 24 damage drops an agent to -13

Ph 9, DD rolls 13 and hits for 21, taking an agent to -6 STUN

Ph 12, DD has 10- stun and 3 opponents - he decides to strike (a gamble for sure), rolls 8 to hit and 24 damage, 19 past defenses, stunning his last uninjured agent

Blaster has 24 STUN and 3 opponents - blasts, rolling 11 to hit and 24 damage (19 past defenses) taking that agent to -13

Brick gets a 6 to hit and 32 damage, dropping an agent from full stun to -2

 

Agents:  DD is attacked twice, a 13 and an 11

Blaster is attacked twice, 10 and 7, for 23 and 18 (11 damage past defenses, down 27 of 40 now)

Brick is attacked 3 times 15, 10 and 7 for two hits, 26 and 22 - 12 past defenses so he is down 27 of 50

PS 12 DD is now down 12 STUN, Blaster is down 15 and Brick is down 9.

 

DD has one opponent still KOd, Blaster has 2 and Brick has none.

 

Ph 3, DD rolls an 8 to hit, 29 damage and 24 past defenses takes an agent to -13

Ph 4, Blaster rolls an 18 - miss

Ph 6 - with 3 conscious opponents, and 18 STUN, DD strikes, 7 to hit and 35(!) damage - 30 past defenses sends an agent to -24

Brick rolls 6 to hit, 24 damage , stunning an agent who now has 6 STUN

DD's 2 agents roll 14 and 13 to hit

Blaster's 3 roll 5,14,13 -one hit for 23 damage so he is now down 23 of 40 STUN

Brick's 4 roll 14,13,9,12 so one hit for 18 bounces off

 

Ph 8, Blaster rolls 8 to hit, 32 damage and takes an agent to -20

Ph 9, DD hits with a 13 and rolls 35 damage (AGAIN!) taking an agent to -29

Ph 12, DD rolls 9 to hit and 30 damage against his last conscious agent - KOd

Blaster rolls 13 to hit - miss

Brick rolls 7 and hits for 30 damage, taking an agent to -18

 

DD's opponents are all KOd

A 12 misses Blaster,  but a 9 hits for 26, 11 past defenses - he is down 34 of 40

Four shots on Brick - 8,12,8,7 so 3 hits for 22,24,19,21 - 14 stun so he is down 23

 

PS 12 - DD is only down 4 now, Blaster is down 22, Brick is down 5

2 of DDs opponents are conscious, 4 of Blaster's and 4 of Brick's

 

Ph 3 - DD rolls 8 to hit, 22 damage and drops an agent to -13 STUN

Ph 4 - Blaster rolls 15 - miss

Ph 6 - DD rolls 10 to hit and 35 damage (that's three times...) dropping his last agent to -21

Brick rolls a 10 to hit and 42 damage - 37 stun past defenses to the last uninjured agent, who is now at -12

 

DD has no conscious opponents.

Blaster has four, and they roll 8,13,9,10 for 3 hits of 22,24 and 19 - 16 STUN, leaving him with 2 of his 40 STUN

Brick is hit all 3 times - 7,10,7 for 21, 21, 19 - 7 STUN total so he is down 12

One of DD's agents recovers consciousness

 

Ph 8 Blaster rolls a 12, hitting for 29, 24 past defenses, taking an agent to -22

Ph 9, DD's one opponent just went back to positive STUN so he attacks one of Blaster's agents, rolling 8 to hit, 30 damage, taking him to -14

 

Ph 12, DD hits another of Blaster's opponents on a 10, rolling 28 damage, taking that one to -21

Blaster rolls a 5 and 27 damage taking his last opponent to -11 STUN

Brick rolls a 10 to hit and 28 damage , taking an agent to -15 STUN

 

DD's recovered agent rolls a 10 to hit him, missing.  Blaster's are all KOd and Brick's 2 roll 7 and 11 to hit, 26 and 19 damage, so 9 STUN total - he is down 21

 

PS 12 DD is fully recovered, Blaster is still down 26 and Brick is down 3.

 

Ph 3, DD hits his recovered agent with a roll of 10, for 20 damage, dropping him to -10

Ph 4, Blaster misses one of Brick's agents with a 15

Ph 6 DD hits one of Brick's agents, rolling a 12 and 32 damage, dropping him to -11

Brick rolls 13 and misses

His agent rolls 9, hitting for 26, 8 after defenses and Brick is down 11 of 50

Ph 8, Blaster rolls 11 and 37 damage, dropping Brick's last agent to -17 STUN

 

All agents are KOd (several at better than -10, but between now and their next action on Phase 6, they are rounded up).

 

OK THAT TOOK A WHILE - WHAT DID WE LEARN?

 

DD did need that option to Dodge now and then, but was able to hold his own, at least.

 

The rolls matter a lot more than when we are all hitting on a 13- or better and tossing around 12 - 15 dice.  A lot of these attacks missed, and the damage was pretty volatile.

 

DDs 23 total defense + CON was OK against the agents, but he would be stunned a lot if he was getting hit with 8 or 9 DCs.

 

I would not want a much bigger CV range. 

[CrosshairCollie]

On 7/12/2019 at 9:18 AM, Hugh Neilson said:

 Does Captain America have markedly better OCV and DCV to Hawkeye?

Levels, my friend, levels.

[CrosshairCollie]

So, sifting through all this and analyzing it, the primary problem looks to be the Getting Stunned issue, which admittedly, is a pretty big issue, though it would swing both ways.  If a villain can't justify a high stat, s/he won't get it, including changing 'canon' villains (Bulldozer with a 20 DEX?  Wha?  No.), so the Getting Stunned issue would probably just make combat a lot swingier.

[Hugh Neilson]

1 hour ago, CrosshairCollie said:

Levels, my friend, levels.

 

I see no reason any character who has an all-round high OCV or DCV should have to buy skill levels instead of CV.  This is especially problematic for DCV, as skill levels do not do anything until they are assigned, so the character does not have a high DCV at the start of combat if he is reliant on skill levels.

 

How is "being very skilled at avoiding attacks" any more appropriately simulated with DCV levels than with a high DCV stat?  A character who is "very skilled at combat" and has a 10 OCV and DCV because he has a 30 DEX (pre-6e) is mechanically superior, and far less expensive, than one with a 15 DCV, +5 "OCV only" skill levels and +5 "DCV only" skill levels.  Why should that be? 

 

It's often hard to compare point values, but when "the same benefits plus more" costs less, that's a really easy one to spot as flawed.

[Duke Bushido]

2 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

It's often hard to compare point values, but when "the same benefits plus more" costs less, that's a really easy one to spot as flawed.

 

 

And yet we while away countless days and months worth of our lives arguing in pursuit of a perfect mathematical balance without the willingness to admit that it ain't gonna happen.

[Hugh Neilson]

11 hours ago, Duke Bushido said:

And yet we while away countless days and months worth of our lives arguing in pursuit of a perfect mathematical balance without the willingness to admit that it ain't gonna happen.

 

There are three options.

 

We can try to achieve absolute balance, which will never happen.  The relative values of, say, +10 STR, 10 meters of flight, water breathing and +5 PD and ED, Resistant cannot ever be determined.  There is no objective standard.

 

We can toss out points entirely - forget any effort to balancing, and people just get whatever they want, or perhaps whatever they randomly roll, for their characters.

 

Or we can fix those items which are objectively wrong (if it does more or is more versatile, it cannot cost less and should cost more; if two constructs do exactly the same thing, their costs should be the same; the cost of all of the component parts should match the cost of the whole), moving towards better balance knowing it will never be perfect.

 

Some people would say whiling away countless days and months worth of our lives sitting around a table playing a glorified game of "let's pretend" isn't a worthwhile investment of our time either.  Just sayin'

 

I'm also pretty sure that no volume of eloquence, nor logic, nor cited research, among many other elements, on a Political Discussion thread on, say, a gaming website has ever changed the results of an election, or even a single government policy.  Yet political discussions abound online.

 

And I am confident we will never have a perfect tax system, yet a lot of effort in a lot of nations still goes into efforts to improve them.

 

Did you expect your post would change anyone's opinions?  Do I expect mine will?

[Duke Bushido]

No; I do not.  Therefor I put little effort to it. 

 

As to your expectations, well I can't answer that. 

 

Applicable to both of us, though--and many others as well-- are the thoughts on insanity attributed to Einstein. 

 

 

[CrosshairCollie]

17 hours ago, Hugh Neilson said:

 

I see no reason any character who has an all-round high OCV or DCV should have to buy skill levels instead of CV.  This is especially problematic for DCV, as skill levels do not do anything until they are assigned, so the character does not have a high DCV at the start of combat if he is reliant on skill levels.

 

How is "being very skilled at avoiding attacks" any more appropriately simulated with DCV levels than with a high DCV stat?  A character who is "very skilled at combat" and has a 10 OCV and DCV because he has a 30 DEX (pre-6e) is mechanically superior, and far less expensive, than one with a 15 DCV, +5 "OCV only" skill levels and +5 "DCV only" skill levels.  Why should that be? 

 

It's often hard to compare point values, but when "the same benefits plus more" costs less, that's a really easy one to spot as flawed.

Well, Cap and Hawkeye, to use your examples, would both be subject to NCM.  Cap is 'peak human', after all, not superhuman.  His stats would just be higher than Hawkeye's.

You also overlook the fact that, if you don't need those levels for OCV or DCV, you can apply them to damage, making them more flexible than straight OCV/DCV purchase.

In the end, it's about character concept, which should be the main factor in building the character, IMHO.

Though the more I build 6e characters, the more I wonder if the jacked-up stats are because it's hard to spend 400 points otherwise.

[Ninja-Bear]

Crosshair Collie if you happen to have Champions for 5th ed. There is a table which gives formulas for adjusting Standard campaign stats. I’ve plugged a couple of characters into it and it gives a good starting point I think to look at established characters trimmed down.

[Ninja-Bear]

On 7/18/2019 at 1:41 PM, CrosshairCollie said:

Well, Cap and Hawkeye, to use your examples, would both be subject to NCM.  Cap is 'peak human', after all, not superhuman.  His stats would just be higher than Hawkeye's.

You also overlook the fact that, if you don't need those levels for OCV or DCV, you can apply them to damage, making them more flexible than straight OCV/DCV purchase.

In the end, it's about character concept, which should be the main factor in building the character, IMHO.

Though the more I build 6e characters, the more I wonder if the jacked-up stats are because it's hard to spend 400 points otherwise.

Are you saying Cap should have NCM but because of sfx still have higher Stats? Say STR 30 cause that’s the mark between Legendary and Super Or is he stuck at NCM. 20?