GrooveD70 Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Hi all! Im trying to get a Champs game off the ground and Ive been using the FRed, Until SPD, CkC, and the UMA. While these give me a lot of material to work with, my biggest obstacle seems to be players new to the Superhero Genre and Hero in general. Character Generation is quite a hurdle to say the least. I was wondering if anyone who owns the Champions Genre book could comment on how this book might help me and any other benifits before a decide to shell out my hard earned Skrod. Thanx Lonnie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GestaltBennie Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Re: Champions Genre Book worth the Cash? Originally posted by GrooveD70 Hi all! Im trying to get a Champs game off the ground and Ive been using the FRed, Until SPD, CkC, and the UMA. While these give me a lot of material to work with, my biggest obstacle seems to be players new to the Superhero Genre and Hero in general. Character Generation is quite a hurdle to say the least. I was wondering if anyone who owns the Champions Genre book could comment on how this book might help me and any other benifits before a decide to shell out my hard earned Skrod. Thanx Lonnie I like the Champions Genre book a lot, but from wha you're saying. I'd t ake a look at the UNTIL Superpowers Directory first. Scott Bennie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 The one I found most valuable is Champions Universe. I only got the Champions genera book to fill in all the info CU glossed over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 The Hero Deisgner software really lowers that CC hurdle. I don't use my HD for anything but the CC math - I format my PCs in HTML (direct to my website). As for the genre books, I say get 'em all. Terran Empire, all the Champions stuff, Ninja Hero, Viper... all great wealths of ideas that can't help but kickstart whatever aspect your game is needing. Digital Hero also offers a surprising amount of module type, genre adventures Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Liaden Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 The value of the Champions genre book depends on the experience of the parties involved. If the players and/or the GM are familiar with the HERO System and have experience with gaming the superhero genre, it falls into the "useful but not essential" category. From what you say, though, it sounds like Champions could be quite beneficial to your game. The focus of the book is on superhero gaming for both players and Game Masters: the various subgenres, conventions, classic "bits", techniques and power builds. These are discussed in detail in ways that would apply to any supers game, but also give lots of examples of how to create/represent them in HERO terms. The descriptions of various character archetypes (Brick, Martial Artist, Speedster etc.) and the style and conventions of the different "ages" (Golden, Silver, Bronze, Iron) would probably help your players get up to speed on what to expect from this type of game. The book also includes a pretty good Random Character Generator with which you can either randomly roll up playable characters that would need minor tweaking at most to individualize, or that your players can use as templates for their own characters. That would speed up character generation considerably. Finally, there's a fair amount of pre-built accouterments in the book: gadgets, some vehicles, and a few sample bases which your players could adapt, not to mention the example Champions superhero team which your players can look to as models to follow, or even adapt as their own Player Characters. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phydaux Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by Nightfly The Hero Deisgner software really lowers that CC hurdle. Nightfly is correct. The software is a HUGE help. A lot of players are put off from point-based RPGs because they don't like to do the math (THANK YOU, American public education!). The software takes that hurdle away. If you have a decent imagination and a decent understabding of the rules, then power creation isn't too much of a mystery. The problem I have with things like USPD is players start to think that the examples in the book are the ONLY powers that can exist. The thing I like most about Champs is anything I can THINK OF, I can create. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheEmerged Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by Lord Liaden The value of the Champions genre book depends on the experience of the parties involved. If the players and/or the GM are familiar with the HERO System and have experience with gaming the superhero genre, it falls into the "useful but not essential" category. From what you say, though, it sounds like Champions could be quite beneficial to your game. That's pretty much where I stand. Except that I'd recommend the Until Superpowers Database first even WITH that caveat. Frankly, Champions (the genre book) is my personal least favorite HERO product released in the DOJ era -- once I had the Hero Designer writeups for the characters it holds, the only thing I've referenced from it is a single page I've since ended up making my own version of (the suggested value of effect-based limitations charts). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 I like the Champions Genre Book. It does a good job of steering you in the right direction to match tone and how you build your characters. If you want your AcrobaticKungFuDetective to be able to survive in a world full of lazers and rocket propelled grenade launchers buy them the power described as You just nicked me! I have frankly found it just as useful as the USPD and more useful for character generation than the Champions Universe book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlyBoy Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 I love the quick superhuman generator in the Champions Genre Book. I've gotten a lot of use out of it. That alone makes the Genre Book useful to me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solomon Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 GrooveD70, I'm very partial to anything written by Aaron Allston, but from what you said I think you might find Hero Designer and/or Until Database to be more useful to you. Especially if your player's main problem is that they're unfamiliar with the HERO system. If their main problem is that they're unfamiliar with the superheroic genre, then I suggest getting them the Champions book. And a few good comic books too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loraxxx Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 yeah, yeah,yeah--good book....useful....whatever....! is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the fact that in order to run a "by-the-book," FRed, champions game you've got to buy $70+ in manuals!! (FRed rules, CU+Champs Genre book) to my eye, that's kind of a steep, especially since it people new to the system that are most likely to get hit with the full cost.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost who Walks Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 I tend to dislike the Genre book. It doesn't really fit in with the other HERO stuff. Most of it pretty basic. To make it more annoying they stuck the "Champions" superhero team in there. If your players are new to superhero gaming, I advise finding a couple comic books that set the tone you want to have during the campaign. Put them on the "required reading list." I've found that method more successful than most most, it also gets the players in the mood. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by loraxxx is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the fact that in order to run a "by-the-book," FRed, champions game you've got to buy $70+ in manuals!! (FRed rules, CU+Champs Genre book) Well, to run a "by-the-book" D&D game you must buy the DM's Guide: $29.95, the Player's Guide: $29.95, and Forgotten Realms: $39.95. So there you have $100.00 tied up. So I think the cost of running a Champions Universe game is not much different than running a Forgotten Realms game. Either way, gaming is no longer a cheap upfront hobby, but compared to the thousands of hours of enjoyment you can get out of the initial investment, it is just about the cheapest hobby around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted December 9, 2003 Report Share Posted December 9, 2003 Originally posted by loraxxx is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the fact that in order to run a "by-the-book," FRed, champions game you've got to buy $70+ in manuals!! (FRed rules, CU+Champs Genre book) It's not that you have to. The other manuals are extra information. Useful, yes, but not strictly needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by loraxxx yeah, yeah,yeah--good book....useful....whatever....! is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the fact that in order to run a "by-the-book," FRed, champions game you've got to buy $70+ in manuals!! (FRed rules, CU+Champs Genre book) to my eye, that's kind of a steep, especially since it people new to the system that are most likely to get hit with the full cost.... All you gotta buy is FRED. The others are luxuries. In fact, you need to not let them distract you from options they don't exploit that are in FRED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandi Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith Well, to run a "by-the-book" D&D game you must buy the DM's Guide: $29.95, the Player's Guide: $29.95, and Forgotten Realms: $39.95. So there you have $100.00 tied up. Huh-- see, I would've assumed you'd be running Greyhawk (the mother of all D&D worlds), and therefore would skip the FR book in favor of the Monster Manual. Still, only cuts your initial outlay by $10... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Brandi Huh-- see, I would've assumed you'd be running Greyhawk (the mother of all D&D worlds), and therefore would skip the FR book in favor of the Monster Manual. Still, only cuts your initial outlay by $10... FR ptew. Greyhawk RULES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightfly Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by loraxxx yeah, yeah,yeah--good book....useful....whatever....! is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the fact that in order to run a "by-the-book," FRed, champions game you've got to buy $70+ in manuals!! (FRed rules, CU+Champs Genre book) to my eye, that's kind of a steep, especially since it people new to the system that are most likely to get hit with the full cost.... As a buyer of multiple RPG PnP systems, (and) coming back after approx a decade away from 'em,.. I've found that they all are priced about the same. Try running a Star Wars, or Star Trek, or even Buffy RPG w/out spending $70 (at least). Not to mention how some companies just put out new versions every few motnhs (automatically three new $30+ books right there). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 is it just me, or is anyone else bothered by the fact that in order to run a "by-the-book," FRed, champions game you've got to buy $70+ in manuals!! (FRed rules, CU+Champs Genre book) Don't need those other books. You only need FREd, some imagination, and a taste for the comics medium. I used my Champions Genre book sooo little, that I've lost it completely at this point. I know its in the house someplace...unless I loaned it to one of the less superheroically oriented players and forgot about it. It's not that you have to. The other manuals are extra information. Useful, yes, but not strictly needed. Precisely. I am NOT a fan of the Champions Universe (as many folks here know), and I felt a bit put off that half the Champions genre book was the "Champions" themselves. I'm running asuperhero game, and my players are the central supergroup. Why do I need such detailed stats on a group of heroes in the Silver Age? I would've gotten more mileage out of a villain organization. Ah well....the random generator gave me a few refinements on my existing villains. And please don't tell me how useful the CKC is. It's all Champions universe, and some violation of the build rules they set forth in Hero. Bah. I think the only Genre books that will give me any use are the Beastiary and the USPD...if I can scrape the cash together FOR the USPD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monolith Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Farkling Precisely. I am NOT a fan of the Champions Universe (as many folks here know), and I felt a bit put off that half the Champions genre book was the "Champions" themselves. Just so people are not confused here, the Champions team information takes up 19 pages in a 216 page book. That is about 9%, not half of the book. I'm running asuperhero game, and my players are the central supergroup. Why do I need such detailed stats on a group of heroes in the Silver Age? The Champions are not set in the Silver age. They are a current group of heroes in the CU. And please don't tell me how useful the CKC is. It's all Champions universe, and some violation of the build rules they set forth in Hero. I am beginning to wonder if you really even read any of these books? There are no "build rules" violations in CKC. All the villains are built with normal HERO System rules. Perhaps you are thinking about the spell system from FHG by mistake here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Originally posted by Monolith There are no "build rules" violations in CKC. All the villains are built with normal HERO System rules. Perhaps you are thinking about the spell system from FHG by mistake here? Captain Chronos, NND entangle for one. There's a couple others. Nothing major, and the rules violations that are made are either a typo, have a good reason, or the rules have shifted slightly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted December 10, 2003 Report Share Posted December 10, 2003 Sorry Monolith...I do not want to get in an argument with you, but I must comment. I dislike the way frameworks are guidelined in he main HERO books, and then ignored for support book character construction. But hey, that's how CU exists, and how everybody was taught to play, so the rules rationalizations in FREd were just neglected in the update, and are neglected by the players in turn. I have always rabidly disliked "movement/defense framework" "attack framework" construction technques, and this is discouraged in the frameworking section of HERO...then the game designers proceed to instate the techniques on their Champions Universe characters. The Champions Universe exhibits MUCH of the Silver Age flavor of comics. Let's talk pre-1980's before the X-Men became hunted heroes, and the Avengers were put out of business by the US Govt. The defenses of the CU characters are more than sufficient to survive most large attacks, injury is not of a debilitating or permanent variety, and most live by the heroic ideals of the Silve Age. I did not mean to state that they were Silver Age heroes...they live in a SIlver Age universe...and I and my players have little use for a Silver Age Universe. No, I have not read CKC in detail, just filipped through it at the game store and a convention or two to see if it followed the Champions Genre layout. I have paid attention to adjudication questions on these boards. I have read a sizable amount of questions and answers arising from characters in these volumes. I have read what character writeups that have been available. I did have the old Enemies books from 3rd or 4th, and everything I've seen to date indicates that HERO has not changed their designs significantly, just updated (most of) the writeups. My apologies on the Champions pages volume. I recall that I found about half or so of the book useful. If I can figure out who borrowed the damn thing, I'll let you know what the other 40% stemmed from. The genre book does aptly cover different TYPES of Superhero genre, if I missed stating that, but the only concrete build examples provided are from the decidedly Silver Champions Universe. I am sorry if I lack credibility and well thought out critiques, I'm in the middle of finals and term papers. I liked the Bestiary. The USPD looks useful, especially to my players, of whom only one is good at "how to-ing" from special effects. I have Star Hero, and reading it will commence following Dec 16th. I even liked the genre layout in Fantasy Hero..it looks well thought out, and internally consistent worldbuilding tips are always useful. The Champions book was NOT as useful a genre piece as Fantasy Hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I guess many of the mainstream DC and Marvel titles reflect much that is Silver Age from your analysis, Farkling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farkling Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I'm an X-Men fan...so you're probably right...or I'm substituting the wrong term. I don't read comics now, I spend that money on RPG supplies. 10 comics a year => 1 good HERO supplement. I have 10 years worth of comics from the 80s to 90s. My brother still collects them in modern times. He has a major dislike for the feel of Champions Universe too. Reached independently. Of course his PREFERRED titles are Batman and Peter David's Hulk. He also liked the old Batman cartoon more than I did. Maybe we just like a darker world than is typical in the CU. That's all I was trying to tell the guy, that the CU may not be to his liking. Their characters feel too...unbreakable is a good analogy...inside my head. I'm fuzzy though...I'll have to check back later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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