CorpCommander

You've stated the issue much clearer than I have in nearly half a dozen posts. That is the heart of the issue here. The spectrum lies between at the most basic level raw powers and naked advantages to powers with adv/lim. to compound powers to characters/vehicles/bases. The concept of weapons falls upon the top three. I mean, even the Venn diagram of Weapon in hero covers everything from a splinter of wood to The Death Star. How you handle those extremes and all of the the stuff inbetween is where the fun is at. For the game I am working on now I am dealing with small arms in the same way that they are in 5E. The larger support weapons are all being handled as powers. Basically if the weapon only does one simple thing like an RKA with very little fancy footwork going on then I use the simple system. If, however, it does something that would get a player to say "Groovy!" then it takes a bit more finess. Sure, its not an exacting science I've come up with, but it works for me.

This is the problem I have with calculating any weapon's cost with this method. Clearly a Derringer is valuable. It clearly gives you the ability to really hurt someone in a way wouldn't be ablt to do otherwise. With this in mind it would appear that any methodology that allows for weapons to become negatively priced is clearly not correct. It makes me think that, in the case of creating weapons, the use of limitations for the negative mods is a better route because you will never have a situation where the price of the weapon goes negative. Using full 5pt CSL for the positive mods is probably better than using an advantage. I admit it could simply be just that this is an extreme case where the base power is so weak that all the additions and subtractions overwhelm the one bit that is giving you any actual value (the RKA in this case.) Though, at 15 points it shouldn't be this big a problem. Its not like we are trying to design a 1d6 EB with a -3 OCV. The standard rule of all things cost at least 1 point is probably enough. Pete

Is it possible to do this with Hero Designer 1.47?

Adding is not inconsistent but subtracting is which is where you run into trouble. Its not like a character where you can subtract points by reducing an ability stat like STR below the baseline and get points back. Weapons are more like powers than like vehicles. The fact that the points had to be fudged for some reason indicates what I said originally which is that the system is not well defined. Thanks for the reminder on the other limitations I forgot. I have a feeling if I add those in I am possibly going to get closer to Steve's numbers but, perhaps, not in the same way. Pete

to Lord Laiden SWEET. Who doesn't love Ninja??? I like the Trick stars. Great concept. I've been thinking about unusual weapons for my campaign. The "Grasshopper" is a grenade launcher with smart grenades. It has the usual AP/AT rounds. It also has the iSpy round (if you have HUD it projects a ground image back to you. Can be used indirectly.) Loitering Missiles. These are missiles that you launch that circle your Area of Operation and look for enemy targets. They loiter for a few minutes. If nothing comes their way they go ballistic. If they find something they drop on it (or fly up to it if they are set for anti-aircraft mode.) An electronic version of concertina wire. It's easier to emplace and is based on force fields. It can be stored in 1/1000th the space as regular wire, is safter to handle and can be delivered by air, artillery, missile or vehicle.

So, what your favorite clever sci-fi weapon? I've been working on a campaign and I was thinking about how lame its gotten to portray lasers and Ion/Meson/particle guns. I want something really interesting. What have you come up with?

The system I am looking at is building and costing firearms. So this isn't a generic system for players to min/max powers for their character. Common sense, enforced by the game master, says that you chose the level your OCV mod is going to be on the weapon. Buying it off then buying it back just to get some cheap points doesn't fly. My intent is to correct the problems with the unclearly defined system that is currently in place. I went back to 4th Edition (actually Hero System Rulebook) to see what they do there and, not surprisingly, they don't have Active/Real points listed. In 4E they do have advantages and limitations but they don't address OCV and Rmod. So it appears that in the transition to 5E the weakness of the system continues. I do like the way you look at the same problem. I am going to compare results using your method vs. mine and see which I like better. Thanks for the response.

Has anyone else tried recreating the weapon Active/Real costs in the table on 5E pg. 332? It’s impossible in my experience. You run into trouble immediately on the first weapon, the Derringer revolver. I checked the FAQ and errata and only found a correction for the .50 Cal. HMG. Ok lets take a look at pricing a firearm in character points. The two trickiest bits are OCV and RMod. On page 333 it says that these affect the Active cost (the implication I derive from the text is they are costed out and added or subtracted directly to active points. This is against the normal Hero System mechanics.) Each point of OCV is a 5-point CSL with OAF, requires hands and real weapon. RMod is not explained as clearly but I took it as a PSL. This means that OCV mods are + or - 2 points each and RMods are + or - 2 points for the first and 1 point for each point extra. Thus a +2 RMod is 3 points. I could be wrong on that but again, the text isn't 100% clear on how to derive the calculation. Ok the .38 Derringer has -2 OCV and -2 RMod (-7 by my count.) The power is RKA 1d6 (15 active points.) Ok the math is good so far! But wait; didn't page 333 say that OCV mods affect the active points? So, its obvious we have a problem but still, lets press forward. OK the STR min of 4 (-1/4) and 2 shots (-1 1/2) when applied to the 15 active points yield a real cost of 5. It would appear that in order to get the 1-point listed in the equipment list you'd have to take the raw OCV and RMod values and add them directly to this number. That could also be coincidence. Applying the -7 to the 15 yields 8 and then applying the -1 3/4s in limitations yields 3 points. We can't get to the 1-point listed no matter how we slice this salami. What is worse is I didn't even apply a Focus limitation to the RKA, which it would normally get. Culinary metaphors aside lets try something different. First lets toss out the rubbery treatment of the modifiers here. The OCV and RMods should yield advantages (or limitations). That at least would be mechanically compatible to the rest of Hero. No? I will propose some example values: Level ____OCV______RMod +3_______+1 1/2____+3/4 +2_______+1________+1/2 +1_______+1/2______+1/4 +0_______+0________+0 -1_______-1/4_______-/14 -2_______-1/2_______-1/2 -3_______-3/4_______-3/4 (please pardon the underlines, I have no idea how to create a formatted table where the spaces/tabs aren't collapsed.) I made the OCV limitation weaker simply for game balance. a -1 1/2 limitation would require extraordinary justification. One may say, well at +1 1/2 points the +3 OCV would cost more than it's real life 5-point CSL. True and we aren't even considering the fact that its a CSL within a focus. However these aren't points in your character, these are points you just happen to find in the local armory rack. You only need a 2pt WF skill to pick them up and use them right away. Further, a +3 OCV accurate weapon is a kick ass weapon. Called shots at 8 meters by even beginning gunslingers with pitiful DCV are still pretty easy. Take a gunslinger at 8 meters (26 feet) with a +3 OCV weapon. RMods don't kick because we are within the 4 hex ranges. The head is -8 OCV. Even a Gunslinger with a DEX of 12 only has a -1 OCV at this point. This yields a still reasonable chance to hit the target's head. Now imagine a skilled person doing so! Further, consider that most weapons are OAF (-1), this offsets the mods significantly enough that perhaps we are actually being generous here! Ok, now lets cost the derringer using our new and improved handling of OCV and RMod. RKA 1d6 (15 active), -2 OCV (-1/2), -2 RMod (-1/2), STR min 4 (-1/4), 2 charges (-1 1/2), OAF (-1), Requires 1 hand (-0) (3 real) If we add in Real Weapon (like anyone will take a Derringer seriously...) the Real Cost remains at 3 after rounding. This seems much more realistic to me. it fits in the framework of the Hero system and, best yet, it works easily with Hero Designer (the most indispensable tool ever created for gaming - bar none.) Hopefully this wasn't too rambling and you've made it to the end. Comments? Corrections? Flame? Praise?

Splitting TUV Actually I like what they did with the TUV. It covers a wide swath of vehicle interests. Individual genere source material can be made from it. I think a line of PDF products would be good because it had negligable distribution costs and you don't have to guess how large your production run needs to be. Its a LOT of work making good lists of vehicles, characters, equipment... I am working on a campagin book for my Post Apocalyptic world that I plan on giving away in PDF format. I am working on the equipment lists now. Oy what work! In working on my book the TUV has become extremely useful as I have to devise both very hightech and very low tech vehicles. What would be nice is the Hero Community producing more free stuff. There are some fantastic examples of this already. Grey Hero comes to mind. I have a lot of knowlege of the American Civil War, several periods of Samurai history and WWII. It makes sense for me to begin the work on creating lists of weapons, armor and vehicles for those periods. They are things many people running Hero games could use. We'll have to see. The popularity of my Post Apocalyptic book will determine how interested I am in producing additional books. Watch the Star Hero board for an announcement for V1.0 soon.

Witchfire I've been running the Iron Kingdoms world using the Witchfire Trilogy of modules. Its really be a lot of fun and perfect for Hero. Currently the D20 folks are struggling with changes in 3.5 to weapons and so forth. 3.5 has drastically delayed an already delayed Campaign Guide. Its too bad. Its a lovely world. 90% of the population in the adventure area consists of humans. There are some dwarves and they are well liked enough. There are damn few Elves - they are considered "tricksy", as Golum would put it. Their God is dying and they all have their mithril in a bind. The Gods are interesting and fun. I've dropped the entire alignment aspect of the game in favor of a Law/Chaos division which I find more appealing. My favorite Goddess in the game is Cyriss. She is a goddess of mechanical things. Being that this is steampunk fantasy it makes a great twist. We are just now finishing up the first book and everyone has had fun. I don't doubt I can convince them to play along for part 2. Currently the one dwarven character has steampowered armor on... DEF 12. OMG. He's in for a wee surprise soon though. Gorax have very sharp claws!

I noticed in the TUV that all vehicles have DCV = CV without taking into account their size. For example, the Bradley on pg. 50 should have a DCV of 0 not 4 as listed due to its size. I don't see in any place in the description where they buy off the vehicle size impact. Have I missed something? They have this throughout the book. I noticed that Hero Designer correctly displays DCV which is how I originally came across the problem when I tried to input a vehicle from TUV into HD and it didn't match up.

Do they? I wonder, do Mechs have big buns? lol One of the oddest and funniest rap songs ever.

My $0.02 There have already been tons of good replies. First my vote on reprints? **NO** I'd like to see more non-generic vehicles that will tend to be involved in games. I can make up my own stats for a Ford Escort (4 hexes, ZERO Def, great gas mileage, starts losing body randomly for the next 8 years before you sell it for scrap.) What vehicles end up in games? Ground Vehicles: Cop Cars ( See the film The Blues Brothers ) HUMMV SWAT Panel Vans Cleveland Police Mother II (look it up, it rocks) Commando 150 Armored Car Choppers: Bell Huey Sikorsky Blackhawk Cobra Gunship (thankfully not in the hands of Viper!) News 5 Eye in the Sky Sky Crane (saw one once as a kid - they should appear at least once in every modern game because they are cool.) Chinnok Boats: Any thing the US Navy Seals use in the Special Boats Units Special Boats Unit Description with pics Other Brown Water craft such as the PBR, SWIFT, and River Monitor, Very Slender Vessel (no, really, its called that), Mark V Special Operations Craft (MK V SOC -- the Hummve of the Sea!) Unusual Vehicles: Jet Packs Ducted Turbo Fan Flight Pack Moller Skycar (See it here ) Tilt Trikes (like General Motor's Lean Machine ) Oh if only they had come out with these!!! Those are my crazy ideas for now. Hope you like em.

Good job! That is beautiful. I've read several of those! What an achievement. Thanks! Pete

Have you ever seen an F15? The thing has ordenance points all over it! It is a multi-role fighter. It is more apt to compare the F-15 to the B17 than the F-15 to the P-51. I am not the first to make this comparison. Check out James Dunnigan's book "Digital Soldiers: The Evolution of High-Tech Weaponry and Tomorrow's Brave New Battlefield." Its not unusual for roles to evolve over time for equipment so don't get hung up on the "F". The B1 is more akin to the B-29 or B-37 than the B17 as far as strategic boming goes.

Re: What is HERO Sidekick? Son, Its a miracle product. Look here.. it cleans it shines it brightens it will make your whole game fun, easy and convinient no mess, bother or annoyance it enhances it glorifies it will make you a diety to your FLGS crew ;-) My group is playtesting with it right now. It is FREd in cliffe notes version. Its a thing of beauty actually. My crew contains people from many levels of RPG experience from complete newbie (still smells like 'supply') to someone who taught role playing to Gary Gygax (exageration - but you get the point). Only one has read Hero 4th edition. I am so happy this thing exists. Its exactly what our group needed.

Good points Good points both! There are just some thing a large crew can do that automation can't. Like the Russians say: Quantity has a Quality all its own. Pete

Why have much crew at all? One could point to the rapidly decreasing number of crew needed for military vehicles and postulate that big dreadnoughts only have a small crew of humans. Look at the B17 vs the F15. F15 is faster, carries 4 times the payload and has 1/11th the crew! Just an idea. Pete

I was thinking about taking the basic system that is in FREd )p. 233) and expanding it. Basically I want the possibilities of more internal damage on the vehicle. The vehicle in my campaign will be a big part of the action. It will be critcal to the game and to the player's reason for existing. Has anyone done something like this? Here is my proposal For changing things. First idea: When the vehicle takes damage roll 2D6. Create a table with items and systems on board the vehicle. Put the most likely things to be hit under 7 and then alternate around that point. This gives a sort of curve to it. Fits in with the other aspects of the game system 2nd Idea: Start with a D6 roll. Make a list of things on the vehicle. Put things that would be protected more further up the list. For each body of damage over the first add one to the die roll. This is great because you can say the crew compartment is more protected than the computer which is more protected than life support which is more protected than the engine... It would give a good feel I think. The players become aware that the damage becomes progressive and it makes them much more apprehensive about putting the vehicle into danger. Another thing that could help the vehicle stay in fights longer is that A body result doens't necesarily mean a point of body is lost. A roll on the table will indicate either a system, a point of body or a combination. I will give it a try and post the results here. Pete

I've seen one form of Danger Sense where the RSR was deduction and represented simply being able to detect a trap - it may have been slightly limited in that all the details of the attack weren't known but just that it was there. I think it was for a Film Noir type character.

Was there ever a supplement on this? Have many (any?) run a game like this? At around 1am last night I started to write out ideas I was having on how to run this. My influences have been Gamma World (stupid but inspiring when I was 15), Aftermath, Morrow Project, Fallout (computer game), Twilight 2000, Road Warrior, Aliens, The Postman (David Brin novel not the Kevin Costner film), Dr. Strange Love, Arthur C. Clarke, Azimov, "A Matter for Men" by David Gerrold, et. al. What I am going for is quite similar to Aftermath and Morrow project. The basic premise is that 150 or so years from now the Earth encounters another race in space. They are drawn to our Solar System where we try to make peaceful contact. They on the other hand wage war. They've lost their homeworld and now are looking for a new one. At first they attempt a military conquest. However, though Earth has a much lower overall tech level, we are experts at fighting and have recently been involved in fighting for our own planets amongst each other. Their ships are less efficent than ours are. They need to devote a lot of space to interstellar drives. For the same size class we pack a lot more weapons. We defeat them in space. Their second attempt is via a massive biological attack. They send pods with plauge and hideous terror beasts. (Think "Aliens") Though there is much destruction we fight off that threat too. Global Cooperation is at an all time high. Earth Space command determines the location of the invader's "Mothership" and sends a task force after it. In desperation an alien taskforce uses their technology to rip a large moon from on of the jovian planets and hurtles it towards Earth while the Mothership is destroyed. Earth doesn't have the ability to alter gravity and turn moons into bombs. Nor does it have the technology to stop this. Something must be done. A plan is divised to attempt to shatter the moon on the way in. Yes, the smaller bits will come in and cause catastrophic damage but it won't be a Global Killer. In order to survive the aftermath vaults are created where some of Earth's finest will be housed in cryo sleep. When they emerge they will bring with them Order, Security, Technology and Culture back to the world. After 2 years of preparation the vaults are created and the chosen half percent of humanity decend to sleep. The Nuclear Winter that is expected to follow is predicted to last 3 years. The Vault Computers are set to monitor conditions and release the inhabitants after 3 years. There may be survivors. Your Vault opens up. Elapsed time: 198 years. Something has gone wrong. The computer indicates that radioactive fallout was the reason the Vault has been kept sealed. There are only 2 years left on the Vault's powercel. You've been awoken to determine what happened (the moon shards shouldn't have caused the fallout), get a recharged powercel or establish another source of energy and begin the mission. -=-=-=-=-=-=- Of course what happened was after the vaults were sealed those left behind went into a panicked frenzy. Scientist left above worked hard seeking any means necessary to stave off the inevitable. This they managed, to a degree, finding ways to deflect more of the shards. However, global chaos reigned supream. One last short war was fought before the end. The Vault was within a mile of ground zero. The landscape has changed. Great cities are in ruins. There are many wastelands, some radioactive. Humans did survive and many raided helpless vaults. Humans band under warlords, bandits, nomads and farmers. The world still harbors alien horrors and plague. There are no mutants, for the sun has beat down more radation over eons than the pitiful war was able to produce. There has been a slow emergence of psi ability among the surface dwellers. You are part of an action team. Equiped with a RAVEN (Rapid All-terrain Vehicle with Enhanced Navigation), an amphibious, mobile lab, home, hospital and military vehicle you set out upon the Broken Earth. Your objective is to restore order and create a new world. I took a lot of notes on the structure of the Vault teams. At the top is a draconian Vault Computer that guides the entire base. The personel are divided up into the following major teams: GOV -- Government, for reinstating order MIL -- Military, for establishing security SCI -- Science, for pure R&D, scientific thought, etc. MED -- Medicine, the application of medical science ART -- Culture, for re-establishing human culture before the catastrophe REL -- Religion, Deacons for a sort of generic amalgum of pre-catastrophe religions TEK -- Technology, the guys that fix the stuff: Mechanics, computer guys, communications guys, etc. I have a bunch of other notes on the subject. I will be producing stats for a wide range of items such as the RAVEN, the weapons, etc. Comments?

An INT of 8 is actually Normal. 10 is competant.

George Orwell would say that "Since everything is broken, Nothing is broken!" There is no way a point based system can prevent bad character design in much the same way there is no and never will be a computer language that will prevent bad computer programs. The solution to this problem is the same in both cases -- oversight. For a Hero game that comes from you GM. Find a reasonable GM and let their word be law. I've got to go now. I am trying to cheese out my next character with super cheap STR and Skillz. WO0T! I will 0wn ViPeR!!!

Um, why not just, like, build characters with half the points? Instead of making that 300pt character why not make a 150pt character? That way you don't have to change anything and you get the same effect. No?

Ah Sensei! There is a reason why You are Master and we are but humble servents!