Beast

"Thank you "

acting 12-

Striking Appearance +1
Selfie photo +?

11 hours ago, steriaca said:

"Do you want some majho shojo company?"

sure
I'll need to print that selfie I took with him and sign it
that might put him in a better mood( a prop to add to her Acting skill along with SA to give more of an impression that she is thankful Doreen was safe and she did not have to bust his skull)

To Freddy
   thank you for not making me, make you black and blue

                                                        GhostCat

1 hour ago, steriaca said:

"Who wants to go visit him?"

I'll go

9 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

Hello, Beast! 

 

I had hoped to be at a keyboard when I had time to post this, but evidently I'm not going to get a weekday shorter than 14 hours this year, so.... 

 

In fairness, Basic is just as out of Print as is MHI, though there are still a few sellers with license for a few PoDs out there. 

 

And Basic has no more "currently on print" support than does MHI.  Theoretically, the source material for MHI is still in print on the form of the adventure books that inspired the game in the first place, though, which is more than Basic can claim.  (Don't get me wro g: I am not bashing Basic; in my own opinion, it is far superior to the two Big Books in nearly every way.   I just wish it had been called Sidekick, just because 5e did that with the "lite" edition of the rules as well.) 

 

 

But your comment about the GM having to make a few easy decisions:

 

Based on some of the Co versations o. These boards, it seems that those decisions aren't especially easy for a lot of folks, and I am betting that they are even more challenging for those not too terribly familiar with the HERO System- they are not up against just learning a new system, but they have no real grasp of what the results of their decisions could be.  I have no hesitation in proclaiming that more than a handful of us experienced GMs have been surprised and unhappy with the actual results of things we tried coming from an experienced background. 

 

Making matters worse, Basic really doesn't offer much counsel on doing this beyond telling you it's okay to try. 

 

 

Again, not something new players are going to fully understand just off what's in Basic.  Certainly they will muddle through if they are determined, but it's not the same as having made an informed decision. 

 

 

It's wieed: its an even mix of urban fantasy and action adventure.  You's think I would like the MHI books, but they kind of turn me off...    

 

 

 

You're right, of course, but that was easy for you because you k ow what you're doing and what you're talking about. 

 

It's not unthinkable that a new GM would end up buying Monsters, marauders and whatever the Hell the other thing was because he isn't experienced or comfortable enough to yet to build it on his own.

 

He might decide he needs a bestiary, too.  At this point, he has spent at least as much as shelling out for MHI, still has to dial in the rules he likes and doesn't like for his game, has _none_ of the flavor or background or setting data from MHI--  in short, he has some rules and some support material, but he still has to build a game out of all of it. 

 

He could buy MHI and not just run a game, but get some pretty nice color artwork, too. 

 

Again: either approach is valid, but I know which I'd prefer as a new-to-HERO GM, and definitely as a player. 

 

And of course, all that material that works with Basic- well, it works with MHI, too. 

I agree Basic should have been called Sidekick or something simular

there is nothing stopping the writer from setting some dials as a suggestion
really the power  level suggestions on the bottom of page 14 of the Basic(Sidekick I loved that name also) rule book pretty much sets most of the dials there
the rest of the dials are pretty much what the GM and PCs agree on
there is also no stopping the publishing of pre-gens for PCs to look over and maybe with help of the GM to swap skills,talents,perks, and equipment

I know how to fake it good

1920/30's bores me to tears unless there are low power supers

what probably is needed are a 10 to 15 monster/villain pdfs for beginner games
get HSB(Sidekick) and maybe a free or really cheap Splat pdf like above, also a setting that will have followups in the future and maybe an over all storyline to follow(like TORG,VtM,7th Sea, etc)

this begging stuff should be cheap, maybe recycle some art, monster and villains
you might even get it down to say WildStrike sized

14 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

The ideal I have in mind is to use a game like this as an incentive for players to want to buy the toolkit and fiddle with it themselves. This is basically what we did back in the '80s (right, @Duke Bushido?) and is not a new concept, or even a difficult one to grasp. We can go to the HERO store, for example, and buy HERO Designer, but for people who are really curious, they have the option to buy the source code for HD and fiddle with it themselves. Same concept: HERO System is the source code and programming language. The game is the consumer-side interface.

 

 

I may have to create an entire game with nothing but heroes bitten by kangaroos. . . .

 

The supers genre is a bit more complex to figure out, at least for me. People have so many ideas of what they want to do, it seems a hard sell to create a game with only some of the powers included. I know that's not exactly what you mean, but by the time you create several kind of Blast options (AoE, NND, Indirect, or whatever variations), you may as well simply use the entire Powers list and expect people to figure it out. I think maybe this is the PhD of HERO System gaming. I think this is peculiar only to the supers genre though. 

 

I think it fits really well for Fantasy HERO though, with specific spell lists and such. People are already "trained" to use spell lists, magical items lists, special skill lists, and stuff like that from D&D or whatever else game they came from. 

 

In each case though, if this were to be the model for supers or fantasy, I think maybe they'd have to start with a setting in order to explain and understand the "settings" for the Powers in the game. We don't have to reveal the builds, but we do have to explain why wizards can't use armor, or why there are two spell systems (arcane and divine, for instance), or whatever else. These decisions imply a setting, and half the setting work is already done by the time these decisions are made. Again, I think it works less well for supers, but maybe it's still workable. 

 

Can you imagine if a new setting book came out for Champions that made these sort of decisions? Do you think it would work, at least as a starting point for new gamers? Experienced HERO players may not like a more setting-limited approach, but non-HERO people may. Since Champions was the first game I learned after a few years of D&D, I'm used to its wide open approach. I'd be a bit disappointed if I could only select from pre-defined powers lists. In fact, this is why I never picked up other supers games, because they seemed to be too limited. I can't tell if others would feel the same.

now for a fantasy game look at the books you will need
1 FCH(there will be stuff not covered that will need building)

2 HSG (Grimiore)
3 HSMA (fighting styles armed and unarmed)
4 HSMI (Magic Items)
5 HSB (Beastiary)
6 at least 1 setting book(Tula Morn, Turkainain age,.... )

that is a lot to cover and be cookie cutter(and the point of Hero System is to not be cookie cutter)

15 hours ago, Amorkca said:

 

Anything significant about the thefts?  Super powered thief?

"could they be part of something larger"
"A super weapon"

"summon or release some lovecraftian horror"
"easily cut and sold for money"
"you get my drift"

20 minutes ago, Duke Bushido said:

 

 

As it turned out, it wasn't even the complete 4e rules.     The genre books that followed did the same thing that all the HERO adventures and supplements had done before-- they added new "core rules" and options-- Skills, Talents, etc:  the very thing that 4e was supposed to solve in the first place by pulling everything from all that had gone before.

 

One of the things 5e did was-- well, just what 4e did:  pulled all that scattered stuff and put it into one place.

 

I haven't read enough 5e stuff to know, but I _am_ a bit curious:  did any of the supplemental material for 5e "do it all over again" as well?

 

We've got two APGs and periodic hints at the need for a third that suggest even 6e is continuing this tradition.

 

 

was stuff left out or was new stuff created after 4th ed came out?
now I know 6th ed APG's where done with stuff left out of 6th ed but was also never in 5th ed or FREd as Steve Long said that before 6th ed was printed

7 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

MHI is a good example of what I'm talking about: it's a complete game where all the decisions have been made, the setting has been written, and it is very clear to all involved what the game is about. I'm not exactly sure if you're offering it as a counterpoint because I'm not sure where you're getting 600 pages from. If you scroll back a bit you'll see my breakdown of the two books I just mentioned, and they are each well under 300 pages. Just about the same as MHI. 

 

 

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but you're being a bit vague. Champions is a genre book, and as DukeBushido pointed out on the first page of this thread, there are a dozen setting books. Again, I'm not sure which you're talking about. There are zero decisions made in Champions, except for the genre itself, but even that is wide open with no real decisions made. Each setting book makes some decisions, but not very many. Usually only a history is given and some backstory, but not much in terms of what is expected of the PCs. There's way too much for the GM to decide before session 0 even begins. 

 

Similarly, Fantasy HERO is extremely vague, without even a standard magic system offered. Fantasy HERO Complete is better, but it doesn't offer a setting, so there is still the need for the GM to make a whole lot of decisions and do a whole lot of work to even be able to play. The settings for 6e may be workable, but they tend to be information overload for anyone learning them. Go look at the Turakian Age thread for an example of what I mean.

 

Again, I agree that MHI is a better example of what I'm discussing in this thread. What you are bringing up probably fits better in a different discussion.

MHI is 1 book and no support

and at 60$ a bit steep as an entry level game
Hero system basic was 20$ when in print and can be used with any genre the GM just has to make a few easy choices
If I say the game is Heroic and you can use any of the 3 choices Stat based,skill based or powers based(all are 175 pts)
you are part of a group that hunts monsters for profit and have to keep it under raps as best you can
pretty much all equipment is in HSB
now to make zombies for the 1st encounter
30 body and x5 vulnerability to head shots
hand wave turning ,get bit you have to either cauterize the wound say 3 body with in 1 turn or chop off the limb in 2(min 1/2 current body ,a saw takes 2 phases and will do exactly what is needed , machete will need to roll, so you might kill or make a friend dying

28 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

 

 

 

The two examples I've given Danger International and the best of them all, Justice, Inc., are 2e games. They had everything needed in one book (or in the JI instance, one box) and could be played easily in a weekend if everyone set their minds to it. Unfortunately there has been no support for them in, say, 30 years!

 

Which is why I'm using them as the model for a new game with all the rules complete in one book, with all the other stuff needed to play, including adventures. These are great examples for a new "game template" because they eliminate all the myriad options of Champions and Fantasy HERO. The idea is to eliminate analysis paralysis for folks learning the game, but maintaining the core rules (other than Powers) so that the game is sufficiently sophisticated, keeping its HERO System quality.

Here I would say you are wrong as 4th ed made all the rules the same just and gave power levels
During 5th ed we got Dark Champions and the Ultimate Skill to add more gun porn/weapons and more crunch to skills

"analysis paralysis" is gone when you set the power level and the genre pretty much gives you that
you are way over thinking this
more that is needed is a checklist of what people want to play
something the GM hands out and everybody marks what they want
GM tallies up what the players want and goes from there

32 minutes ago, Brian Stanfield said:

 

This is exactly what we (as a group discussion) are trying to avoid. It's not a "complete game book," it's a "complete tool box" for creating games. There are already plenty of tool box editions for building games, but no actual games. Even Champions isn't a game, it's a genre with a collection of settings, none of which actually set the dials themselves, and expect the players to do all the work. That's great for experienced HERO players, but a nightmare for anyone else. The idea is that a "complete game" will have set all the dials and made all the decisions so that a player can pick up the game and start playing without having to make the myriad decisions that probably don't make sense anyway without total system mastery.

then you are looking at a 600+ page book that only a 1/3 of it will be for the players
Look at MHI a 60$ book that has everything you need for an MHI setting and rules, but has small amounts of setting and background in 304 pages for a book series that is now 10 or so books and was 5 when it came out

the Champions setting book has all the dials set and the villain books are the filler
there will always be players and GM's who want to build there own
pretty much every GM I have played with over the past 34 yrs has made the universe theirs using some, not even a majority of the Champions universe
the first dial everybody sets is what genre do they want to play
setting what power level is next
these are pretty simple dials to set
DnD just sets you to start at 1st level and you work up from there

Hero system is a medium to high crunch system
for me I had 10 yrs of DnD, Traveller, RuneQuest under my belt before Champions in 1985
I don't expect this to be a first RPG for a group unless 1 has played before for a little bit
Basic Hero I could see being a beginner game(limit how many advantages and disadvantages to 2(2xa, 2xd 1xa-1xd, etc)
But these are GM setting dials

On 2/11/2020 at 11:36 AM, Duke Bushido said:

 

I agree with you in spirit, but not in reality.  A lot of that stuff is useless without Hero Designer. 

 

I'm willing to download and print stuff on my own dime; that's not a problem.  Buying software and then having to turn around--if the bulk of the conversations in the HERO Designer forums are any indication--learn Java and build export templates and match this and thats? 

 

No thanks.  If I had that kind of knowledge already, I'd be using it to make a living.  As I am making a living differently, I don't have the spare time to learn it.  I can barely do a weekly game session with a bunch of high-schoolers and a bimonthly with my remaining regulars. 

HD is not needed
I love it and use it for all my characters, but if I didn 't have it I would just write them up on a character sheet I designed  back in the 80's and photocopied
as for templates the one I use most was done by RJM and really works well for me as an RTF for any genre I play in, when I need a hard copy

On 2/10/2020 at 7:27 PM, Brian Stanfield said:

Oh no! Here we go again, right? I've followed and participated in lots of different discussions where people wish that HERO System would release complete games rather than genre books or campaign settings. But I'm a bit unclear what would be considered a "complete game," and what would make it appear to be "complete." I'm all for it, but I'm not entirely sure what it means. I know, I'm bringing up that same thing that routinely gets brought up, but I think it is valuable to at least be clear on some of the nomenclature that gets used so we can be clear on what people actually want to see from HERO System.

 

Let me start with a few definitions/categories:

• Rulebooks and rules supplements: 5e, 6e, APG I & II, Champions Complete, Fantasy Hero Complete, Champions Now
• Genre books: Champions, Pulp HERO, Fantasy HERO, etc.
• Campaign settings: Hudson City, Turakian Age, etc.
• Enemy/organization/character/creature books: Enemies, VIPER, Champions Villains Vols. I, II, III, etc.
• Power/equipment books: Champions Powers, HERO System Grimoire, HERO System Equipment Guide, etc.
• Adventure books: Well, as everyone points out, there just aren't any of these anymore. There used to be.

 

So, I'm going to try to summarize some recurring points, and ask some questions, I guess in a sort of scholastic way:

Proposition 1: The 6e (or 5e, depending on who you ask) rules are too big for beginners to learn, and too cumbersome for system mastery! 

• Nearly 800 pages of rules, rulings, options, buttons, dials, etc. make for a monstrous toolbox.
• Is there a way to pare down that toolbox to the bare essentials that can be taught? Something other than Basic Rulebook?

Proposition 2: HERO  System needs more complete games. 

• Champions Complete and Fantasy HERO Complete are marketed as "complete" games, but they lack campaign settings and adventures.
• Without campaigns and adventures, players are left in the wild with these so-called "complete" yet unsupported games.

Proposition 3: A complete game should be ready to play.

• It should ideally be learnable in a weekend, and playable with new players in an evening (probably a pipe dream, but an honorable goal).
• It should have a setting and plenty of adventures, or at least a couple of adventures and plenty of seeds for homemade adventures.

Proposition 4: The lengthy powers builds inhibit a streamlined game experience.

• Several lines of a power build, with all the Advantages and Limitations, make the game too mathy for some people.
• The complex builds also make the character sheets sloppy and hard to read. There should be a simplified player interface for new players that doesn't scare them off with all the HERO jargon. 

Proposition 5: What is the definitive, DOJ-supported edition anyway? 

• Some people stick with 5e because it most resembles the original game(s), enough so that it's still supported in HERO Designer.
• Some people prefer 6e, but others can't stand it because it retools some fundamental HERO stuff.
• The new Complete books: aren't they just streamlined 6e?
• Champions Now: the rules have been so completely gutted, and powers even renamed in awfully confusing ways, why is this even supported by DOJ?
• Are any of these things actually supported by anything other than 3rd party efforts at this point?

I know I'm forgetting some things, but I'm sure they'll come up! 

 

So here's what I'm a bit confused about: how can you get all these things together in one "complete game" without it also becoming 700 pages long?

• The Complete books are around 250 pages long, but some would argue that they don't have complete settings and adventures. So are they even "complete games" in and of themselves?
• Perhaps there needs to be more Campaign and Adventure books? But then you're making the books INcomplete when you require other books to make the "complete" books playable.
• Hall of Champions offers some new content, but is any of it "complete" in the sense that they can be used with complete settings in an ongoing campaign?
• Should a "complete game" be depending on 3rd party content to be playable?

 

I know there are economic considerations driving the actual content that DOJ offers. This is more about the "wish lists" that people keep submitting. What are people actually wishing for? What would an actual complete version of Champions Complete or Fantasy HERO Complete actually look like?

 

Here's what I'm wondering: Doesn't this end out making the idea of "complete games" start to look more and more like the toolbox model that 6e pursued in the first place? Couldn't there be a new kind of book category, maybe a catalog of Gamebooks, that act like genre/setting/campaign/adventure books all wrapped up into one, without having to rehash all the rules in each new game?

 

Let's say I'm going to try to revise Danger International. I'm going to rename it Action HERO just to fit in with the HERO title motif (not my idea, but I like it). What should I include in this project? 

• I don't really need to reissue the rules, do I? They've already been done several times over. Perhaps a brief summary of the rules in 50 pages, with lots of references to the appropriate 6e1/6e2 volumes? Why should I reference the rules in Champions Complete as my resource, as seems to be the inclination promoted by DOJ these days? (50 pages)
• I can pretty much cut out the Powers section entirely. They're only really used to build weapons, gadgets, vehicles, and stuff like that anyway, so I can spend some space on those items without rehashing the entire Powers rules. I could offer a one or two page explanation of how the Powers are used to drive build all the items, perhaps even an appendix on how they're built, but I don't have to teach how to build a modern gun.
• Again, each Gamebook would set it's own dials, as people say, and render the extraneous material in sidebars referencing the Rulebook toolbox.
• Lists of equipment, weapons, vehicles, gadgets, etc. (5 pages, maybe)
• In this example of Action HERO I'm choosing a modern setting in a familiar world for a very specific reason: I don't have to include a setting. It's already out there in your everyday experience (I'm stealing this, by the way, from Ron Edwards's Champions Now, because it's a great idea). Perhaps instead of a specific setting, I'd offer a "state of the world" section, and offer some adventure seeds based on all the global hot-spots and crisis situations. (Let's say 50 really detailed pages to help foster new adventure ideas)
• There'd be an appendix with pre-gen characters ready to play. (10 pages)
• There'd also be an appendix with some interconnected adventures that can be played right away with the pre-gens. (25 pages?)

 

This seems simple. 140 pages simple. But is it "complete"?

 

What's missing? Or does the entire idea miss the mark? Would other games (Pulp HERO, Star HERO, etc.) fit the same mold? Would each game just explain which dials and buttons are set and how? More importantly, unlike the genre books, would they simply make assumptions about the particular setting for the game? If that's the case, would there be perhaps a need for several different kinds of games in the same genre? Am I falling back into the Genre Book model if I offer too many setting options? Would Action HERO actually be better cast as several games: American Agents, Global Guerrillas, Mercenaries, and things like that, each with specific setting assumptions? 

 

These are just some of the things I've been thinking about. What do you see as making a "complete game," and what am I missing? 

 

Please, let's not get back into an edition war, or rules bloat debate. This is really just a brainstorming discussion, but I'd really like to hear from some of the regulars who have strong opinions about this stuff.

 

 

1 the 4th ed Hero system book book did it in 256 pages
   but it lacked examples that the 6th ed books had in spades
  the Basic Rule Book(in effect 5th ed Sidekick) covered 90% of everything and for most beginning played is fine to learn over a weekend

2 The complete books would be around 600 pages total in 1 book if you added the likes of the Fantasy Hero or Champions
   there is plenty in the free downloads area or these and forums of this website and plenty of others for starting a campaign
   or you can read various books to get an idea for 1(wild cards, Ex-Heroes, LotR, MHI, or any other game they might have played)

3 size of the book will have a say in this
  are we talking people who have played RPGs before or totally new to RPGs?(totally new to RPGs might need a hand at guidance)
  what you are really asking is how lazy and poor are these new people to Hero or do they have a clue as to what they are getting in

4 is a GM problem, the lack of having Hero designer, a computer  or any  combo of these

5 pretty sure there is a lexicon for Hero shorthand/ slang in the books

6 DOJ supports CC, and CC coming out has been the format they have been using

   Steve Long uses the big blue and yellow books when answering questions on his part of the forum
   5th ed questions are answered by who ever speaks up in these  forums
  CN hopefully will be supported by it's author and those that use that system
  as there is only 1 person running DOJ now, new money is probably needed to do any new books(I would love to see new or updated 3rd or 4th ed books like Pirates,Mythic Egypt,Vikings,Horror Hero... done)

Yep a bit of a mess

Complete for me is just the rules and a few examples(Starburst,Randle Irons,etc)
CC,FHC do this for me as I'm really just a PC not a GM and the added stuff is wasted(I do buy villain, setting, and gear books for my collection and for examples to point to GMs  what Hero say are legal to them
adding settings may be something they may or may not need or want(so why make the book huge if you don't want that?)
spreading things out adds content for those who want it and makes the cost spread out

Has anybody put out a COMPLETE game and setting in 1 book that was at least medium crunch?
and IF they did how long did they last w/o support (we are  saying COMPLETE)
putting all the info for 1 setting in 1 book makes it a 1 off for the producer  and no future profit
  

for me 4th ed Hero system rule is a complete game book
just pick a genre and set the dials

"I'll do my AAR when we get back, I do not need that much sleep"
when she gets seated GC will turn back to her last form

when GC gets back to van she will muse to the team
"He wanted to go back to prison"

"Foxbat surrendering to us so easily is a kick in the teeth to Butz"
"Is there any History between Butz and Foxbat?"

15 minutes ago, Mark Rand said:

Foxbat surrenders.

thank you
and for that I will send you an 8x10  copy of our selfie

GC will take a selfie with him ,then write
To FOXBAT
       from GC as MM

GC will doodle an MM face and hand it to him, and see if he goes for his gun or surrenders
 "now hands up and it won't hurt"
 

"Could you turn so I have a surface(your back) to write on?"

4 hours ago, Mark Rand said:

"Foxbat, of course," he replies.

"Nothing like "to Foxbat, my biggest fan" or something?
"and what you like me to sign"

GC will step out of the van and walk with that MM strut towards Foxbat

once GC arrives in a MM voice she will ask "So Mr Foxbat, how do you want me to make this out to you?"

GC is waiting for her call  in the van

"yes, give me a minute"

GC will shift back to normal sight
it takes her about a minute to shape shift
sorry some how my Hero forums notifcations where getting sent to spam

33 minutes ago, steriaca said:

"We don't know if we can keep Foxbat from doing anything stupid. So I would leave for a while."

maybe someone else is in the driver's seat concerning Foxbat if he is acting wierd

Just trying to figure out where foxbat is first and as a flashbang was just used
I figure I'd switch to radar and be immune to flashbangs

Ghost Cat will exit the van and switch to radar(normal vision is locked out)and scan the area and wait the rest of her move
Perception 13-