greypaladin_01

8 minutes ago, Ninja-Bear said:

Speaking of samey, I remember looking at the old Fantasy Hero for fourth and they had Goblin, Hobgoblin, Lesser Orc and Orc. And I thought besides STR, what are really the difference? In one game I used the Hobgoblin stats and named but said in game Hobgoblin means chief and usually they have bigger goblins rule the smaller ones.

Near as I could tell looking at the same books is that they lumped them all into types of Orc.  Basically trying to do the various differentiations that are usually ascribed to Tolkien Orcs.   Although at this moment other than orc/goblin,  half-orc (the one in bree) and then Uruk-hai I am having a hard time remembering THAT many different versions.

7 hours ago, Scott Ruggels said:

I've used the  Erquigdlit. Slight reskin as my Lupines. Liited language skils, but otherwise smart, and can track/ hunt.
https://d.furaffinity.net/art/scottruggels/1498836562/1498836562.scottruggels_balphas02.gif

 

Tried the link but is giving me a 403 error.  I feel rather forbidden.

Looked at their sheet and might up the bite and something to give them more of a frenzy vibe, but the rest I think is just descrptions and selling it at the table.   

Yes, that sums up what I am seeing.   I suppose I had gotten more used to D&D 4e / 5e where more mechanical differences are "baked-in" to the monster sheets.    HERO by default anyway is much more just a different paint job on the same chassis.  

That is not a bad thing in and of itself, but does limit the variety without more GM work.   But the most important thing is that I am not missing something obvious and now it is just giving this a test run and then going from there. 

Basically I figured I would be needing to just reskin something and the one mentioned above seems a good start.   Just getting used to how samey alot of the monsters look in hero terms.   Just have to make sure to focus on description to make them feel differnet in game

Thanks!  That is a great starting point.   I somehow just missed them when flipping through books last night.

I am flipping through the various beastiary books but have not found anything that seems similar to gnolls.  Does anyone have suggestions on choice for them or a reskin with minor tweaks?

What about giving grenades a 1 segment delay, something akin to Haymaker?   This would give a small window to reflect the fuse time but also to give characters a chance to move, grab/throw, dive for cover, etc?

Obviously it would depend on genre but it would also give a window for other characters to shoot (or ranged disarm) the grenadiers and have it fall at their feet.

Are all of them available through HERO download, or is there another source?

Grailknight's method is probably the closest to RAW from what I can tell.   Outside of 1 Hex AoE / No Range for Big Hand smashing, ranged STR attacks usually fall into the realm of TK.   Since it is basically STR w/ Range Advantage anyway.

Going over everyone's posts it really feels this is an example of how almost all game systems break down at the extreme levels of play.  The answer to "playing more powerful" is not always just to add more points.  

A more simple method might be to set ground rules for how the world works and go from there.   Do superheroes need to have 10d6 Killing Attacks just to be able to damage a Tank?   Or should all "real" (non-super cars or such) vehicles have limits to max DEF... or perhaps only get half listed DEF against PC attacks.

It is a tangent but the vehicle rules using the same systems and mechanics as people and all gear always feels a bit janky and troublesome in HERO.. but that is different conversation.

If you are wanting to play Justice League levels but still want thugs and VIPER goons... then they are going to be a joke.  The best you can hope to do really is just have dozens of agents using teamwork and coordination to try and get combined STUN damage enough to get Stunned effect.   At those levels the 'real' world stuff just doesnt really do anything at all....

Maybe the answer is something even as simple as if you are in Paragon Tier (or however you want to call it)   You keep the CV levels still in line with the campaign but get free DR 25% or something against common weapons.   Without the math nightmare that is Damage Negation (shudder), there is no "bulletproof" in HERO anyway... so a little free boost to defense that only applies to normal/low end threats will help characters feel more powerful, but keep you from requiring everyone throwing 20-30d6 attacks just to get 15 STUN through.

This might stray from your question slightly, but the concept of x2 effect for 5 points can be found through many powers in HERO.   Right off the top of my head Non-Combat Multiplier for the various Movement Powers and X2 number of Minds for a Mind Link.

In this case there is no limit to the power from them, it is just the mechanic to get more ability for specific circumstances.

I believe in older editions there was a x2/5pt mechanic for getting extra lower point followers and maybe even Multiform slots... but I would need to research the books.  Hopefully others know more off hand.

Still none of these are limitations.   Right off the top of my head, I have a hard time seeing anything other that Foci applying to the Doubling Rule we are talking about.

Stress Testing Hero can lead to Stress Testing your brain.     But we'll help where we can!

31 minutes ago, Cloppy Clip said:

 

This might just be my personal preference for tinkering with mechanics coming through, but I genuinely thought this is a big selling point for HERO to its players. Would you disagree then?

Depends on players.  Some don't care for the mechanics and just want to play something without hard set restrictions like a D&D class.  But yes, for some mechanics is a feature for sure.

I am not sure really if I would say it was to "make them feel clever"  but more that you have to have SOME baseline.  Since points are the currency of creation, they use that.

To truely "balance" things for HERO, the GM has to set the baseline points.  Set the guidelines for CV, AP, DEF and Skills.  Then ALSO carefully work with each player to go over concept and build to look for any potential issue.   Finally, they have to reserve the right to require players change something if it proves to be abusive.   Or at least adjust and adapt with the GM.   It is an ongoing process.

Thinking a little more on it, the 5 point doubling rule really feels like a Special Rule that would apply to specific types of games but should not be used universally.   This is in part because of how much 5 points means depending on the point totals of a character.

A superheroic character with 400 points could use the 5pt Doubling rule to get a silly number of various gear items, to the point where the Focus, Charges and other limitations stop being a limitation.   At this level 5 point investments are rather cheap.

A heroic level character for say, Dark Champions or the like have much less points to work with 175/250 range  (if I remember right)  and while in many campaigns their equipment would be 'free' and only require money not character points, if they did have to buy gear then 5pt for getting a second sword or gun is more fair.  Especially when you consider it is a considerably more significant investment for the character.   While they could still buy the same silly numbers of the items as superheroic characters could, they would be investing a significant percentage of their character points to do so.

Personally I am not sure I like the doubling rule,  mostly because it is so fixed cost for so variable of an effect.   You have a 3 real point cost Focus and want to double it?  5 points.....    you have a 150 real point cost Focus and want to double it?  5 points....   It just feels like a house rule for a specific playstyle that was made official but does not scale well to all games.

Also at least in the heroic level there are limits to the type of gear you can 'buy' that you have to pay points to unlock.   Otherwise you are limited to items that you collect during adventure and put back in your locker.

It sounds like earlier editions were trying to keep the damage bounded a bit more.   5d6K for a heroic game seems.... intense.   But I'll check into the 6e notes as well.   Thanks!

5 minutes ago, assault said:

2d6 is pretty easy even on fairly low point totals.

 

Plain old sword: 1d6+1.

18 Str takes it to 1 1/2.

Skill levels take it to 2.

 

That's without Martial Arts.

 

Of course a plain old sword will max out at 2 1/2d6, unless you allow otherwise.

When you say Max Out, you mean between STR, Skill Levels and MA the most possible dice is 2 1/2 d6?

5 hours ago, Gauntlet said:

It definitely depends on the game. In my game I have found that attacks many times can get over 3d6 KA and even 4d6 KA with use of STR, Skill Levels, and Martial Arts. And since we utilize hit locations, the STUN Multiplier can go up to x5. Below is an example.

 

Fighter with 2 Handed Sword

2d6 HKA with 17 STR Min

Offensive Strike ads 4 Damage Classes making the damage 2&1/2d6

Utilizing 4 Skill Levels increases the damage to 3d6+1

Average Damage with Chest Shot: 12 BODY and 36 STUN

 

In addition, you are assuming that a character is wearing Full Plate Mail. Normally due to STR and Price in Gold, most are wearing Chain which is only 6 DEF making the total DEF with the Talent 9.

 

Should the exact same hit be in the head the damage would be 12 BODY and 60 STUN and if the character isn't wearing 8 DEF Armor the BODY taken is doubled.

Apparently things expand much more than I was giving credit for when it comes to damage.   Do people find there is a range of damage in a group or is it pretty standard that most find ways to hit 2-3d6 consistnatly?

I agree that this seems like a very fun idea, and great for giving characters ways to specialize.   But how does it balance against the damage output in the game.

While I am still studying Fantasy Hero, it seems to me that most attacks are going to fall in the 1d6 to 2d6 range.    With Plate already being DEF 8 and as pointed out above, these skills adding could take you to DEF 12.   Meaning that other than a bit of STUN attacks will do nothing at all to a character.   Especially if with DEF 12 and then say a normalish PD of 5 or so.    That gives 17 defense against STUN attacks... even a 2d6 max roll of 12 with max STUNx of 3 would only take 19 STUN.

While this would (probably) be enough to Stun the character... it will certainly not be enough to KO them alone.   And if you HAVE to get a max damage roll just to have any real effect... is it TOO much then?

This is part of what I am trying to work through on the non-superhero side of HERO.   Things get very tight and I am curious how other people see something like this working in play.

Awesome!  Thank you!    Time to dig out several books from storage 

Sweet!  Thank you all for the help.    Was never lucky enough to have any of the Adventurer Club stuff...but I think they sell PDFs now.   This way I know which to look for.

19 minutes ago, Doc Democracy said:

It seems like a druid is more about shapeshifting than manipulating natural forces (or anything to do with the elemental planes).  I can live with this as the additional spell stuff pulls more to nature bits.

 

I think, therefore that wild shape is a key feature of being a druid in Greyhawk.  My concern is doing this in HERO, I was reaching for multiform but you need to pay for each form individually.  It is not shape-shift because he gains abilities like flight and enhanced strength, vision and other natural abilities.  I am therefore thinking it needs to be a heavily prescribed VPP?? 

I would suggest having 2 "paths" for Druids.   The first being Nature Magic (wind/lighting,etc) and the other being the Wild Shape style.   This allows for a little more variety while keeping both versions away from nature-cleric.

Multiform would be the easiest if you wanted players to stick with only a few forms.   Perhaps even giving them discounts on "new forms"   I forget all the math for mutliform at the moment.

However another option (a bit non-standard)  could also be a very specially constructed Multipower.   If you have access to the original Strike Force book (1988) take a look at Samiel (pg38) to see what I mean.

Awesome!  Thank you everyone,  this is exactly what I was trying to find.   I suspected that the deeper guidelines were result of the more expanded toolkit style.

I agree... it feels like HERO would have been better served with something like the Sidekick rules as core, then have Genre Books (Fantasy, Champions, Pulp, Etc) with expanded rules and guidelines for simulating the style and then finally having the APG line being the HUGE books that cover all the deeper Toolkitting.   While it would take more books to have "all" the rules at your fingertips, I think it would be less intimidating and confusing for people that were curious about the system and wanted to try it.

@Hugh Neilson  Do you know where those results for that survey were posted.  I am very curious to see what the spread looked like in the earlier editions.

4 hours ago, Doc Democracy said:

Page 11 in the BBB.

 

If I remember properly thus might have been the first time such a table was produced as this was the first step in a unified HERO Sytem rather than a bunch of books with similar mechanics.

I knew about this one from BBB, but was trying to figure out if 4e had the more detailed breakdowns that 5/6e did.     Seems it only did the general guidelines.

Thank you!

Thank you that helps for the 6e side.   Now to see if I can find anything for 4e era.

My other curiosity is if anyone has looked into how accurate those guidelines are actually followed in the rest of the products, such as Enemies books and the like.